NB Tia May Electric Drive Conversion

[Redeye]

Hi Guys

 

Though I would share my thoughts and experiences on converting my Narrowboat to an electric drive system. There have been a number of boat tests recently with a variety of the available systems and the concept interests me. I have been researching the conversion for around 6 months and have come up with a system and solution that is somewhat different to the DC drives that are currently available. I will attempt to post my thoughts and experiences as I progress with the build, any comments would be appreciated

[casper ghost]

Will it be one of these pretend electric drive systems where the betterys are charged up by a diesel engine, in which case you may as well use the engine to drive the boat and save on batterys.

[foxhound_mike]

yes please

 

very interested in this idea of an electric narrowboat.

 

when I had a yard in london we had an electric milk float which was very useful and i was considering using the drive motor and controller from an old milk float as a starting point for a conversion.

 

looking forward to your posts

[Robbo]

Will it be one of these pretend electric drive systems where the betterys are charged up by a diesel engine, in which case you may as well use the engine to drive the boat and save on batterys.

 

With the system you stated above you can have a smaller diesel engine, which will run at a set speed, which is more efficient and easier to soundproof. I think the dutch barge Sara has this setup and the generator only needs to be used around 50% of the time when traveling for 6 hours.

 

Edit to say another plus is that as non of the diesel is used for propulsion, so you can save here as well.

Edited January 6, 2010 by Robbo

[barge sara]

With the system you stated above you can have a smaller diesel engine, which will run at a set speed, which is more efficient and easier to soundproof. I think the dutch barge Sara has this setup and the generator is only needs to be used around 50% of the time when traveling for 6 hours.

Edit to say another plus is that as non of the diesel is used for propulsion, you save here as well.

 

That's the one!

13KW DC Generator, 4 DC motors giving an available 40KW (52HP), traction batteries to provide a buffer for the occasional 'full throttle' demand.

Normal cruising demand is around 5KW.

Quiet, very controllable, lots of torque at low revs, good fuel economy.

Plus a pair of Victron Phoenix combis for alternative battery charging / domestic 240v supply. (We are also gas free).

So for short (up to 5 hour) trips we are effectively cruising on mains electricity, which is even cheaper.

 

It works, we're pleased with it.

But I have given up attempting to convince the doubters, so please don't be offended if I don't repond!

[Robbo]

That's the one!

 

It works, we're pleased with it.

But I have given up attempting to convince the doubters, so please don't be offended if I don't repond!

 

If I ever needed to replace my engine, this kind of setup I would seriously look into.

Edited January 6, 2010 by Robbo

[casper ghost]

But my engine is only 10 hp and does 11 hours per gallon even whilst cruising, only cost 600 pounds and is 30 years old.. Will any electric system be more efficient?

 

It has an electric system similar, a battery which starts the engine and the engine then charges this battery, but also pushes the boat at the same time, genious..

 

Edited as I put 11mpg, doh..

Edited January 6, 2010 by casper ghost

[nb Innisfree]

I would like an electric motor as an add-on running off domestics just to give short periods of quiet propulsion, handy when moving to water point etc. saving having to run engine for short periods + when cruising, batts are full and engine is not working much. Even if engine is ticking over and out of gear it will reduce any vibration, shut engine down when not needed and run if batts need topping up. Also handy if engine breaks down, just run genny and limp along to somewhere more convenient.

[johnmck]

 

Double OOPS...

Edited January 6, 2010 by johnmck

[johnmck]

 

OOPS.....

Edited January 6, 2010 by johnmck

[johnmck]

 

Hi.

 

Whilst reading the latest "Canal Boat", saw an article reviewing NB Button End, and read that this has a Nannidiesel engine, with a "shaft driven 4Kw generator mounted between the flywheel and the gearbox"

 

Delving a little deeper, i see that Nanni are now offering a Hybrid system. Seems promising, so contacted them. The main site is scant on detail, but their UK agents have sent me a little info, and the following snippet.

 

"We are currently supplying a hybrid system for a 58ft narrow boat for a shared ownership fleet the engine is a N4.43 and the battery bank we have recommended for this application is 1500 amps made up of 2 volt gell cells

 

In two banks of 750 amps they come installed in two tanks 484mm long 702mm wide and 530mm high.

 

We fell this to be on the large side and believe on a privately owned boat where the battery bank would be better managed a bank half this size would be sufficient".

 

As we would be extended cruisers rather than live aboards, this system would fit the bill in relation to onboard power without a seperate generator, and the ability for limited electric propulsion.

 

All thoughts welcomed.

 

John.

[Justme]

Edit to say another plus is that as non of the diesel is used for propulsion, so you can save here as well.

 

 

I think that might be stretching the truth a little.

[Sir Nibble]

A battery powered boat charged from the mains is actually powered by the steam turbines of the power station, the batteries and motor are simply part of the drive chain. An electric boat charged by an onboard diesel is powered by the diesel, the generator-battery-motor is just a drive train, nothing more or less. A mechanical or hydraulic drive is considerably more efficient in converting fuel to motion. Don't kid yourself that you can declare zero use for propulsion, take away the fuel and the boat will soon stop until the fuel supply is restored. It is an inefficient and therefore enviromentally unsound system with extra complexity and cost.

[RLWP]

<snip>

All thoughts welcomed.

 

John.

As an extended cruiser without the ability to use a shoreline for battery charging, either you run the engine to propel the boat or you run the engine to charge the batteries. The debate is if the improved economy from running the engine in a more efficient way (constant load at economic speed) exceeds the inefficiency of turning diesel into stored electricity and getting it back.

 

I don't have any data to support that debate unfortunately.

 

Richard

[bag 'o' bones]

With the system you stated above you can have a smaller diesel engine, which will run at a set speed, which is more efficient and easier to soundproof. I think the dutch barge Sara has this setup and the generator only needs to be used around 50% of the time when traveling for 6 hours.

 

Edit to say another plus is that as non of the diesel is used for propulsion, so you can save here as well.

 

I presume you mean saving on paying fuel tax? How did you work that one out? Assuming you do not have a land line of course diesel is used for propulsion - the power has to come from somewhere!

Edited January 6, 2010 by bag 'o' bones

[johnmck]

I would like an electric motor as an add-on running off domestics just to give short periods of quiet propulsion, handy when moving to water point etc. saving having to run engine for short periods + when cruising, batts are full and engine is not working much. Even if engine is ticking over and out of gear it will reduce any vibration, shut engine down when not needed and run if batts need topping up. Also handy if engine breaks down, just run genny and limp along to somewhere more convenient.

 

Thats the type of system that appeals to me. Especially whilst locking. I can do without diesel fumes whilst in a lock chamber, spoils the fags!

 

John.

[nb Innisfree]

Thing is after say 4hrs engine running batts are topped up and 1.8 litres of engine is only pushing boat along at 2 to 3 mph and putting a few amps into batts, seems a waste. Turning engine off and using domestics for propulsion for a while would perhaps offset inefficient engine running? Especially in locks. Talking here of a 12/24v smallish motor of something like 2 to 3kW that will propel up to, maybe, 2mph?

 

Edited to add: A washing machine motor (or two) running off inverter?

Edited January 6, 2010 by nb Innisfree

[Robbo]

I presume you mean saving on paying fuel tax? How did you work that one out? Assuming you do not have a land line of course diesel is used for propulsion - the power has to come from somewhere!

 

The diesel is used to generate electric and not to propel the vehicle. A quick look on the HMRC site doesn't say much - only thing I could find was that if you use biofuel to produce electric you can get a rebate in the tax.

[carlt]

If any electric motor set up is still running in 50 years time, then it will have proved itself to be marginally more "eco-friendly" than my engines.

 

The costs, environmentally, of the manufacture of a new engine, electric motor, cabling, ecbs, means it is far less green than a well maintained classic engine.

 

Too much eco-garbage is claimed by those with a financial interest in you spending your hard earned on new kit, rather than any real interest in saving the planet.

 

Edited to say: Just read my post and will qualify it's confrontational stance by saying that, in 50 years time, I will happily eat humble pie if anyone is still running their original set up, though if my engine is 100 years old, by then, the electro-lump will still be playing catch-up.

Edited January 6, 2010 by carlt

[deletedaccount]

There probably won't be much diesel left in 50 years...

[barge sara]

A battery powered boat charged from the mains is actually powered by the steam turbines of the power station, the batteries and motor are simply part of the drive chain. An electric boat charged by an onboard diesel is powered by the diesel, the generator-battery-motor is just a drive train, nothing more or less. A mechanical or hydraulic drive is considerably more efficient in converting fuel to motion. Don't kid yourself that you can declare zero use for propulsion, take away the fuel and the boat will soon stop until the fuel supply is restored. It is an inefficient and therefore enviromentally unsound system with extra complexity and cost.

 

If any electric motor set up is still running in 50 years time, then it will have proved itself to be marginally more "eco-friendly" than my engines.

 

The costs, environmentally, of the manufacture of a new engine, electric motor, cabling, ecbs, means it is far less green than a well maintained classic engine.

 

Too much eco-garbage is claimed by those with a financial interest in you spending your hard earned on new kit, rather than any real interest in saving the planet.

 

The entire concept of using fuel in persuit of a liesure activity is inefficient, environmentally unsound, unecessarily complex and costly.

Maybe we should all get rid of our boats, or at least the propulsion units

[carlt]

There probably won't be much diesel left in 50 years...

Then an electric motor, run by a diesel generator is going to be as useful as a direct drive engine.

[deletedaccount]

lots and lots and lots of panels

[carlt]

The entire concept of using fuel in persuit of a liesure activity is inefficient, environmentally unsound, unecessarily complex and costly.

Maybe we should all get rid of our boats, or at least the propulsion units

I don't follow that argument at all.

 

If we are discussing what is the most eco friendly form of boat propulsion then we should all switch to sail immediately but, because that isn't going to happen, it is also pointless.

 

Nobody on this forum is going to be doing away with mechanical propulsion so we might as well stick to discussing that.

[Matthew Knowles]

The entire concept of using fuel in persuit of a liesure activity is inefficient, environmentally unsound, unecessarily complex and costly.

Maybe we should all get rid of our boats, or at least the propulsion units

 

Here's a new though for green propulsion.....has anyone considered getting a horse to pull your boat along the canals?