Boat Builder

[david and julie]

Hi, I can only speak as I find...We had the misfortune of picking the wrong boat builder very recently & he has now gone bankrupt, We have lost £25,000 so I understand your concerns.Our newbuild nb was so bad it was only valued at £40,000 by our surveyor,Orchard Marina offered to buy it off us for £35,000 bearing in mind our boatbuilder had gone bust whatever we got for the boat would be all we would ever be getting as unsecured creditors however we agreed on this price then the trustees got hold of our boat and it was another couple of months before we got it back.

During this very fretful time we kept Orchard Marina informed of the situation and the price was mentioned many times.From our first dealings with them on 19-6-09 the price had always been £35,000 but at the last minute last week as they were about to do the electronic transfer they dropped the price to £32k.We were absolutely devastated as we had lost enough!! My husband managed to get them up to £33,500 so we lost £1,500.

I have no idea what their boats are like but I wouldn't want to do business with them if I were you.

I don't see what Orchard have done wrong - you agreed a price but never came up with the goods on time - so the original deal effectively died a death.

 

From a business point of view, they thought they were getting the boat in time to sort and sell during the peak season - indeed they may even have had a punter for it - but that couple of months delay means they may now have it on their hands over the winter - and in the meantime values are definately falling.

 

Not what you want to hear but given the market they may have done you a favour - your builder was the one who let you down.

 

This is precisely why many of us are now saying by used instead of new.

[carlt]

While I tend to agree with the consensus regarding new or used boats, just because somebody asks a for opinions it doesn't mean that advice should then be forced down their throat!

Why quote me?

 

I didn't force advice down anyone's throat.

[blackrose]

Why quote me?

 

I didn't force advice down anyone's throat.

 

I wasn't quoting you for that reason.

 

I've edited that post - I hope it's clearer now.

Edited October 2, 2009 by blackrose

[hydrophobia]

I don't see what Orchard have done wrong - you agreed a price but never came up with the goods on time - so the original deal effectively died a death.

 

From a business point of view, they thought they were getting the boat in time to sort and sell during the peak season - indeed they may even have had a punter for it - but that couple of months delay means they may now have it on their hands over the winter - and in the meantime values are definately falling.

 

Not what you want to hear but given the market they may have done you a favour - your builder was the one who let you down.

 

This is precisely why many of us are now saying by used instead of new.

 

But the deal hadn't died a death when it was again verified the day before, they pulled a fast one at the last min thats the whole point of my post.Paula asked for peoples experiences with orchard & that is mine.As for it being in writing, no it wasn't.As for all the advice on buying used instead of new it is hardly helpful to the good boatbuilders out there,we need to sort the wheat from the chaff and I am refering to my builder, he is the one who let us down.

[mikevye]

The boat was too bad as I tried to explain before to say nothing and I am not in the business of ripping people off and I am sorry that this offends you.You would make a fantastic boatbuilder!

 

Something wrong here, the boat builder concerned is having an open week-end during October and advertising a build slot for September. On the website its also showing a recent launching of a boat for the Halesowen Trust how can this be?

[Gibbo]

Excellent split charging system for the BT batteries which I have not seen on any other boat.

 

Details? Or at least a basic outline?

[Albion]

snipped

Edit: I don't really understand why anyone expects a budget boat to be anything other than that? If I see a quality boat I can appreciate it, but there are a lot of supposedly mid-range boats out there which in reality are no better than budget boats like mine - they're just less common! I have a friend with a new Colecraft and apart from a bit more solid wood in the interior, he and I both agree that there is little difference between our boats in terms of overall quality. So why do people rave about Colecraft? Probably because they overheard someone else doing the same!

 

I agree that one shouldn't expect a budget boat to be anything other than that, and that if that is what you want or can afford then that's fine.

Your comments about Colecraft are dubious IMO. Colecraft have been going for many, many, many years in the upper-mid range and have achieved a reputation for good quality over all that period. Other builders, budget and others such as LB, spring up, advertise like hell, and fail...........I've watched it time and time again.................if Colecraft had been supplying boats of such poor quality as you suggest, wouldn't they have also gone bust before now as the customers would have twigged by now surely? I suspect that they can't be as bad, therefore, as you are suggesting.

No connection with Colecraft by the way other than I know friends with them who have been satisfied over years of ownership.

Roger

[luctor et emergo]

I don't see what Orchard have done wrong - you agreed a price but never came up with the goods on time - so the original deal effectively died a death.

 

From a business point of view, they thought they were getting the boat in time to sort and sell during the peak season - indeed they may even have had a punter for it - but that couple of months delay means they may now have it on their hands over the winter - and in the meantime values are definately falling.

 

Not what you want to hear but given the market they may have done you a favour - your builder was the one who let you down.

 

This is precisely why many of us are now saying by used instead of new.

 

Like motor cycles, I suppose that there is a definate 'season' for buying and selling them. Buying a bike in the midst of winter will see a better deal than buying a bike in April, when the first nice weekends of spring promise a summer of care free riding. Even dealers will let a bike go for silly money in the winter, if you walk into the (very quiet.. ) showroom with cash. So I presume that buying a used boat in the autumn, or even mid-winter, will see a much better deal. Esspecially if the boat has been for sale for most of the summer.

 

Buying and selling is a shark invested pond. You may not like the ethics behind it, but that is simply how the law of supply and demand works..

 

Which is why I'm keeping a close eye on a few boats that have been for sale for a good while. I may just make a silly offer in a few months time.

 

The beginning of December is a particularly good time to make silly offers. " Just imagine the Christmas that you can have with this cash, the happy faces of the kids when they open all their presents .... "

 

[WJM]

I think Blackrose's point was that there is very little difference between a well fitted Liverpool boat and a Colecraft, other than perceived 'snob value', and price of course!

 

 

I have a Liverpool boat and it is absolutely 100% everything I want from a boat, totally reliable and functional. Yes, it's residual value will be less than another make, but my purchase cost was also less, and my ongoing finance costs are less too. Before I bought a boat I costed out all the options and I can say that my TCO (total cost of ownership) of my Liverpool boat is significantly less than any other boat that I might have bought.

Edited October 2, 2009 by WJM

[Roger Gunkel]

I also bought a LB produced part fitout 5 years ago, for very similar reasons to Blackrose. My experiences are almost identical. Generally sturdily built but with some scrimping on thicknesses of materials (not the steel), thickness of paints etc. Exactly what you would expect from a budget build. I have no complaints over the value for money and any problems I have had, heating etc would have been the same whoever I bought from.

 

I also failed to see a criticism of Colecraft in Mike's comments, rather an observation that in many instances the LB work was comparable with Colecraft and that praise or criticism was often repeating hearsay. People are always quick to attack or defend in respect of their own choices, whilst ignoring many of the facts, something which I am probably also guilty of, as are we all. Another example of that is in this thread, where there has been more than one reference to Liverpool Boats going bust, through losing orders etc and references to both Collingwood and Orchard being possibly unreliable because of their links to the 'Failed' Liverpool Boats. I was extremely dubious of the silence coming from Liverpool Boats last year and expressed my doubts quite openly about them. Subsequent findings were quite openly discussed on this forum and also provoked a fair reply from The MD of Liverpool boats and Colingwood to the effect that - LIVERPOOL BOATS DID NOT GO BUST OR FAIL! They stopped trading due to a change in business, from which good sense led the directors to run down and eventually stop trading without losses to customers or creditors. Collingwood Boats took on the lower volume of new business as a smaller builder and there is no reason to assume that this is anything other than sound business practice. I know nothing about the connection with Orchard Boats so have no reason to offer an opinion. It would also be fair to assume that LBs volume of work suddenly reduced due to their main outlet, The New Boat Company, taking their production to Poland. As NBC took the vast majority of LB boats, a downsize would have been natural and sensible.

 

Although I rarely post these days, its great to see the usual protaganists still at it

 

Roger

[PaddingtonBear]

If you think that the Liverpool boats on offer are dear, what about the 1972(?) Les Allen that has appeared on Apollo Duck, I know that they are considered good but.......................................£108,000!!! and £200/ week to moor.

Edited October 2, 2009 by PaddingtonBear

[Gary Peacock]

A small observation I have made of late being involved with a few new and newish boats is that although a few have had issues ranging from in my view fairly significant to the knit picking is that is it the boatbuilders fault for supplying the boat with these issues or the customer for handing the money over and accepting the boat with issues still needing sorting?

 

These might over simplify things a bit but are good basic rules for buying a newly built boat-

 

Have the ability to understand what you are buying if not engage the services of a GOOD surveyor before even putting down the deposit.

 

Get a detailed written specification of exactly what you are buying including materials along with the model and manufacturer of all fittings to be supplied. (If not you may find the boat you looked at that looked so nice is far from what you will end up with, this is the big trick to play with people who hand over deposits at boat shows! )

 

Use a good contract for the build of the boat! If the builders one is not to your liking go for the BMF contract and supply it yourself.

 

During the build keep a very close eye on what is going on. (This is where a surveyor really does become a good idea)

 

Do not pay more than £2K deposit. (If the builder can't finance the build to the first stage payment without your cash then there is a good chance they will vanish with your cash first!)

 

 

DO NOT PAY FOR WHAT YOU HAVE NOT RECEIVED!!! (Sounds simply but MR & MRS Billy Boater find this very hard to grasp you only have to look at some of the posts on here!

 

Do not hand over the final payment or accept delivery of the boat until you are happy with the boat or have in writing any outstanding issues and what action is to be taken at the builders expense to rectify them.

 

 

[ChrisPy]

If you think that the Liverpool boats on offer are dear, what about the 1972(?) Les Allen that has appeared on Apollo Duck, I know that they are considered good but.......................................£108,000!!! and £200/ week to moor.

there's a 57ft LB widebeam almost identical to mine, I guess about 2004, with a very simple fit-out, on sale for £112K in Bristol Marina. WOW !

[deletedaccount]

there's a 57ft LB widebeam almost identical to mine, I guess about 2004, with a very simple fit-out, on sale for £112K in Bristol Marina. WOW !

 

A 2004 liverpool widebeam (self fitout) I went to look at 6 months ago is still for sale at 59k. The vendor offered it to me for 52k as well.

[PaulaJ]

Just a quick update - in September 2009 I posted for the first time and since I was called a'Troll' and spoken to in such a disparaging way I wanted to let you know that as of yesterday I took possession of my narrowboat from Orachard Marina. The build took two months from start to finish and has been an incredibly pleasant experience, contrary to most people's comments.

 

Happy Boating!

 

Paula

[Nightwatch]

Well done Paula, enjoy your boating.

 

have named the boat yet?

 

Martyn

[Guest]

Just a quick update - in September 2009 I posted for the first time and since I was called a'Troll' and spoken to in such a disparaging way I wanted to let you know that as of yesterday I took possession of my narrowboat from Orachard Marina. The build took two months from start to finish and has been an incredibly pleasant experience, contrary to most people's comments.

 

Happy Boating!

 

Paula

 

Clearly it worked out for you which is great

 

- but going back to your OP - you did ask a question and them seemed to appear dismissive of the answers, which is what folk got a bit uptight about, (then yes as a mod pointed out the tone of some of it was a bit harsh towards a newbie) only one person actually called you a troll (and frankly I wouldn't place to much weight on that) - I've been called it a few times on here and lived to tell the tale.

 

Anyway now that you have your boat you might want to think about sticking around as you are likely to have many questions, as we certainly did after we got ours (all be it ours wasn't new)

 

- the upshot is you will struggle to find a more informative and knowledgeable inland waterways forum than this...

 

 

..

Edited March 10, 2012 by MJG

[bodger]

Hi Paula

 

PM sent

 

Steve

[bizzard]

Just a quick update - in September 2009 I posted for the first time and since I was called a'Troll' and spoken to in such a disparaging way I wanted to let you know that as of yesterday I took possession of my narrowboat from Orachard Marina. The build took two months from start to finish and has been an incredibly pleasant experience, contrary to most people's comments.

 

Happy Boating!

 

Paula

Well done Paula,happy boating.

[bizzard]

Personally i wouldn't want to buy anyones S/H dream boat,because a dream boat is usually what it is ''naff''

Ordered and built usually to a dreamers impractical plan with the builder and fitout people over ruled by the customer who hasn't a clue of the proper fundamental requirements of any boat,like a properly fitted engine and driveline and proper meaty fittings,sensible electrics and not a load of tacky junk that makes the inside of the boat look like the inside of a holiday flat,with all the high powered house type gizmos and appliances.

Because the builder is probably working down to an agreed price to produce this floating dreamers modern house style interior they will almost certainly short cut on the main fundamental things to achieve this,with most of the important boat electrical and service units paneled in or boxed in never to be got again without tearing the boat apart,and being overruled by the customer and not being let to exercise their better judgement ''in most cases'' their heart won't be in the job and erm hidden or blatent botches will probably be considerable.

No give the builder providing they are a good builder a free rein to plan and build it properly,but only with your basic ideas in mind.

In my opinion one of the best routes to go for the impractical or dreamer is to buy an ex hire boat.Because then you can be certain that all the important main fundamental equipment and fittings will be done properly and therefore be reliable,and then alter things a little to your taste,like altering the berths ect.

[Ace 01]

Just a quick update - in September 2009 I posted for the first time and since I was called a'Troll' and spoken to in such a disparaging way I wanted to let you know that as of yesterday I took possession of my narrowboat from Orachard Marina. The build took two months from start to finish and has been an incredibly pleasant experience, contrary to most people's comments.

 

Happy Boating!

 

Paula

 

 

Congratulations, you must be pleased, what are you going to call her?

 

 

Ann

[PaulaJ]

Hi Ann

 

Have decided to call her 'Dreamcatcher'

 

Paula

[Athy]

Excellent news Paula, welcome back and let's hope that your boat is all that you want her to be.

Just one question: in your earlier piosts you mentioned that you had been offered a build slot in May 2010 by Orchard; what caused the delay? Were you shopping around for s/ hand boats but did not find one which you liked?

[Ace 01]

Hi Ann

 

Have decided to call her 'Dreamcatcher'

 

Paula

 

 

That's nice sounds apt.

 

Ann

[Roger Gunkel]

Hi Paula, welcome to the boating world finally. Having now lived on my Liverpool Boats built widebeam for over 7 years, I hope you will be as happy with yours as we have been.

 

Look forward to more of your posts,

 

Roger