How many people are allowed on a narrow boat?

[stickleback]

I have noticed that several hire boats advertise themselves as sleeping 8 on a 56 or 57 foot narrow boat. Yet my 57 foot boat, on the little brass plaque at the back, states that it is to carry a maximum of 6 people. Why would this be? I don't want to have 8 people sleeping on the boat - but it would be nice sometimes to have 8 for a little outing - but I assume that this would invalidate the insurance should something go badly wrong??!!

 

I just can't really understand why some fifty seven foot boats are deemed to be capable of carrying more than others. Mine claims to have an 18 inch draft - would this be connected?

 

Stickleback

[dor]

What surprises me is that the little day boats - what are they - 25ft? - can take up to 12 people.

 

My 57ft boat also has 6 on the plate. This is due to the stability test (which I took part in) for the RCD which is supposed to limit the tilt to less than 7 deg with the specified number of standard adults standing on the gunwale.

[Robbo]

I have noticed that several hire boats advertise themselves as sleeping 8 on a 56 or 57 foot narrow boat. Yet my 57 foot boat, on the little brass plaque at the back, states that it is to carry a maximum of 6 people. Why would this be? I don't want to have 8 people sleeping on the boat - but it would be nice sometimes to have 8 for a little outing - but I assume that this would invalidate the insurance should something go badly wrong??!!

 

I just can't really understand why some fifty seven foot boats are deemed to be capable of carrying more than others. Mine claims to have an 18 inch draft - would this be connected?

 

Stickleback

 

Gussing the max people will be to do with amount of escape routes and air ducts there is.

[alan_fincher]

Our insurance, (Saga), makes no obvious mention of any restriction of number of people on board, not even a generic "up to the makers stated capacity of the boat".

 

Mind you the boat is old enough not to carry a plate with "maximum number of people".

 

We have certainly had approaching a dozen on a 50 foot boat.

 

I've this nagging feeling that if you exceed some number, (12 I seem to recall), that the skipper then needs some kind of formal training and certification. But as some hired "day boats" seem to exceed that number, I may be wrong.

 

The issue doesn't necessarily have to be stability or ventilation. I'm not quite sure how many we had aboard the good ship "Bones" at the Thrupp banter, but in her case, it was that the front deck drain holes were going under, and water was welling across the front deck, just behind a very low step into the cabin area.

 

 

Every time I revisit my insurance, I'm reminded that I'm not allowed to tow water-skiers - Phylis, please take note!

[Gibbo]

Lionheart (70 foot) was completed just before the RCD became manadatory but the builder built it to RCD requirements anyway. The plate states "maximum of 8 people".

 

I have no idea why it is. I know on commercial vessels, once you get past 12 people plus the crew the legal requirements change dramatically which is why most dive boats, whale watchers and fishing trip boats are 12 max (plus crew).

 

Gibbo

[Tam & Di]

Lionheart (70 foot) was completed just before the RCD became manadatory but the builder built it to RCD requirements anyway. The plate states "maximum of 8 people".

 

I have no idea why it is. I know on commercial vessels, once you get past 12 people plus the crew the legal requirements change dramatically which is why most dive boats, whale watchers and fishing trip boats are 12 max (plus crew).

 

Gibbo

 

Once you have more than 12 passengers you become legally defined as a passengerboat, with much more stringent requirements for craft and for crew as Gibbo says.

[nb blackbeauty]

Once you have more than 12 passengers you become legally defined as a passengerboat, with much more stringent requirements for craft and for crew as Gibbo says.

 

Yes 12 passengers seem to be max as i was informed by a british waterways preson when going through Gas Street basin from the Vale after a sunday afternoon barbecue with 14 people

on board (3 were under 12 years)that 2 would have to get off. No hardship as most were gettig off at the Old turn.My boat is 60".

 

John

[carlt]

My boat could take 20 tons of people.

[Natalie Graham]

How many people do you want on a narrowboat?

 

 

 

[Neil TNC]

How many people do you want on a narrowboat?

 

 

 

 

 

Huh...somebody trying to get through the Dudley Tunnel again?

[stickleback]

Thanks for the replies. Still none the wiser really - why would you have 6 people all on one side of a boat for an RCD??? Generally they will be scattered about randomly - so less of a tilt than a sitting deeper in the water! I'm quite sure if 12 people were on the same side of a 25 foot boat it would have real problems - like taking on water!!

 

Would 8 invalidate insurance? I'm absolutely certain it would make no difference to safety as far as using the boat is concerned.

 

Thanks,

 

Stickleback

[rjasmith]

Thanks for the replies. Still none the wiser really - why would you have 6 people all on one side of a boat for an RCD??? Generally they will be scattered about randomly - so less of a tilt than a sitting deeper in the water! I'm quite sure if 12 people were on the same side of a 25 foot boat it would have real problems - like taking on water!!

 

Would 8 invalidate insurance? I'm absolutely certain it would make no difference to safety as far as using the boat is concerned.

 

Thanks,

 

Stickleback

 

 

In the absence of the usual RCD experts who would normally appear to answer this one, I'll have a go this time! (Although I'm not a real RCD expert because I've yet to go through all this, I have read ISO 12217 which is the standard that relates to stability etc for RCD compliance).

 

To meet the standard the boat builder needs to define the maximum crew limit for the boat in terms of the clearances above the waterline when in level trim (ie with specified load on board plus crew spread evenly) of all "downflooding openings". As well as this, the boat must not exceed specified heel angles with the crew (or equivalent weights) in the worst case offset positions. During this "offset load" test the downflooding openings on the relevant side must remain clear of the waterline by other specified minimum heights.

 

This standard runs to 47 pages, has 6 options with various sub options of how to carry out the tests or calculations (you can do it all by maths if you're very clever!!) and has taken me quite a long time just to begin to get my head round it!

 

Of course this is just for boats that have been built to the RCD, not for pre 1998 builds. If you've got a CE plate then the max no of crew stated on it should have been determined by the process specified in ISO 12217.

 

Hope this helps a bit!

 

Richard

[David Schweizer]

Lionheart (70 foot) was completed just before the RCD became manadatory but the builder built it to RCD requirements anyway. The plate states "maximum of 8 people".

 

I have no idea why it is. I know on commercial vessels, once you get past 12 people plus the crew the legal requirements change dramatically which is why most dive boats, whale watchers and fishing trip boats are 12 max (plus crew).

 

Gibbo

I realise that this is often steted, but I used to work on a Trip boat and am not aware of any "dramatic" differences between the constructional requirements of a Passenger carrying vessel and a recreational boat.

 

Before the introduction of the BSS, trip boats were already required to be examined in much the way that recreational craft are nowadays, but the major variatons are in the requrements for safety equipment, etc. not in the construction of the boat.

 

Unlike Recreational craft, passenger vessels must carry life belts, flotation lights, navigation lights, gas sensors, public anniouncement system(for safety warnings and briefing)etc. etc. but most of the other safety requirements are identuical to the BSS.

 

The one area where passenger carrying craft differ significantly is the qualificatuion requirements of the Master and crew. who must complete the necessary trainng and Bopard of trade assesment before they can take charge of a vessel, therec are also differny classes of licence according to the nature of the waters being navigated. My licence covers me to master a craft in any non tidal inland waters in England and Wales.

 

There is apparently a formula which boat builders are supposed to use to asses the stabulity of a craft based upon the number of people whio could safely be carried, but I suspect that most builders just make a guess at the number, and in my exerience it is likely to be wrong.

 

I have had 36 adult passengers on a 70 ft trip boat all rush to one side of the boat to view some interesting feature, and whilst the boat listed, it was in no way in any danger of rolling or sinking, and the hull used was identical to the hulls built by the same builder for recreational craft.

 

Another case of Emperor's clothes??

Edited February 7, 2009 by David Schweizer

[KeithL]

My boat could take 20 tons of people.

 

 

mmm that would be quite a few people then

[OptedOut]

We have a minimum crew clause (2) for navigation after dark. Edited February 7, 2009 by OptedOut

[carlt]

mmm that would be quite a few people then

I think I'd have to pulp them, to fit them all in.

[Naughty Cal]

Our insurance, (Saga), makes no obvious mention of any restriction of number of people on board, not even a generic "up to the makers stated capacity of the boat".

 

Mind you the boat is old enough not to carry a plate with "maximum number of people".

 

We have certainly had approaching a dozen on a 50 foot boat.

 

I've this nagging feeling that if you exceed some number, (12 I seem to recall), that the skipper then needs some kind of formal training and certification. But as some hired "day boats" seem to exceed that number, I may be wrong.

 

The issue doesn't necessarily have to be stability or ventilation. I'm not quite sure how many we had aboard the good ship "Bones" at the Thrupp banter, but in her case, it was that the front deck drain holes were going under, and water was welling across the front deck, just behind a very low step into the cabin area.

 

 

Every time I revisit my insurance, I'm reminded that I'm not allowed to tow water-skiers - Phylis, please take note!

 

Already noted.

 

 

Our insurance policy has a clause that we must not exceed our maximum occupancy as set out in the RCD. Given that the max is 6 persons its unlikely we would exceed this as finding places for 6 on a small boat would be difficult never mind more.

 

On the other hand we have another clause stating that we can only single handed sail for 24 hours and must have 2 on board to sail at night.

[Proper Job]

....... I'm not quite sure how many we had aboard the good ship "Bones" at the Thrupp banter, but in her case, it was that the front deck drain holes were going under, and water was welling across the front deck, just behind a very low step into the cabin area.

The good ship is stable - the owner???????

[tony collins]

I remember once sharing a trip down the South Oxford with three Warwickshire Fly 70 ft camping boats apparently loaded at the ratio of one teenager, per foot, per boat. It was an American group and we thought we'd shaken them off at Cropredy when we moored a mile or so ahead of them. No such luck! a crocodile of kids could be heard coming along the towpath ten minutes before they passed our mooring. They were just as noisy on the way back an hour later.

 

One of the boats (being steered by an adult) rammed the weir at Marston Doles to such good effect that the sound of falling items within the boat continued for some time after the impact. They all had a wonderful time, but it was not the quietest trip we had ever been on.

 

I have no idea how many kids there were aboard the three boats but it seemed an incredible number.

 

Tony.

[alan_fincher]

The camping boat thing is interesting, as any I ever knew about, were always marketed as 12 berth, (per boat).

 

Union Canal Carriers either let them out as a 24 berth pair crewed (so there were around 26 aboard), or as a self-drive, limited to 12.

 

It's doubtful in my mind that the UCC steerers had any qualification or certification that allowed them to have more than 12 per boat.

 

Clearly when on the move, people often transferred between boats, meaning many more than a dozen on one of them at times.

 

I don't think other carriers like Threefellows, Foxton Boat, Birmingham & Midland, Collier Brothers, etc were any different, (but I could be wrong).

[n.b.Goldie]

I can understand the confusion about this subject, for example, my old boat had no specified limit set out in any of its documentation but my new boat has a RCD derived limit of 6 persons however the insurance company disagrees and has set the limit at 5 persons including the steerer. I would not expect the insureres to set a limit greater than the RCD!

 

I can see the sense of a limit of some kind, I remember an incident probably some 5 years ago now where a narrowboat overturned with fatal results to at least one person. It was reported that it overturned due to its centre of gravity being upset by people sitting on its roof. It was a private boat I think.

 

On a related subject, there was some chat up and down the cut a couple of years ago about our masters in europe wishing to extend their inland waterways licensing regulation to the U.K. The jist of it being that they have a vessel limit of 18meters (60ft) for an unlicensed steerer. Presumably there is some kind of test to obtain a license. The chat has gone quiet but has the threat gone away?

 

(edited to correct spelling!)

Edited February 9, 2009 by ditchdabbler

[WJM]

"The jist of it being that they have a vessel limit of 18meters (60ft) for an unlicensed steerer. Presumably there is some kind of test to obtain a license. The chat has gone quiet but has the threat gone away?"

 

 

 

If the UK does go this way then the sensible thing would be to set it at 70' in deference to the standard length of the national canal system.

[Smelly]

You need a master's licence of you're carrying 12 or more.

[n.b.Goldie]

"The jist of it being that they have a vessel limit of 18meters (60ft) for an unlicensed steerer. Presumably there is some kind of test to obtain a license. The chat has gone quiet but has the threat gone away?"

 

 

 

If the UK does go this way then the sensible thing would be to set it at 70' in deference to the standard length of the national canal system.

 

Definately (although I thought a full length boat is 72') but how often do Brussels or 'our lot' do the right thing?? If they did we would still enjoy 'red diesel'!! Oh Well perhaps we must be vigilant but not paranoid.

[Tam & Di]

It's doubtful in my mind that the UCC steerers had any qualification or certification that allowed them to have more than 12 per boat.

 

Actually of course there was no regulation at the time that required a steerer to have any form of licence on canals, though the boats themselves had to be certified if they carried more than 12 passengers.

 

 

On a related subject, there was some chat up and down the cut a couple of years ago about our masters in europe wishing to extend their inland waterways licensing regulation to the U.K. The jist of it being that they have a vessel limit of 18meters (60ft) for an unlicensed steerer. Presumably there is some kind of test to obtain a license. The chat has gone quiet but has the threat gone away?

 

Virtually all other European countries with inland waterways do require a steerer of a pleasure boat to hold a licence, but the exact requirements vary. Two examples are that France requires one for anyone with a craft over 5m, and Holland anyone with a craft over 15m. I'm no fan of EC-dom but they do often get blamed for over-zealous "compliance" imposed by bowler hatted gents in the UK. In this instance the most relevant thing is that UN and EC bodies conceived of an International Certificate of Competence (ICC) for steerers of pleasurecraft that would (in principal) be accepted in each country of the EC. This means that once you get an ICC you can visit every other country - you don't have to take a different exam as you cross a border from one to another.

 

In the UK you can play at being bumper-cars/boats in Braunston and all that happens is one or two cups finish up broken on the floor. If you try that when you meet with the smallest (39m - 350 ton) French working craft the consequences can be more painful. Once you meet with up the big boys who play with 2000 ton+ boats then .......... ! So there is a "highway code" and it is designed for a Dutchman and Frenchman and Pole to all be in close proximity and all know what is going on without speaking the same language. It's no good saying "I'm just a pleasure boat and it's not fair" - you need to know the rules, and the licence is a simple way of demonstrating that you have at least read them and that you have at least rudimentary ability to handle your craft.

 

So the test for a licence has a practical element and also requires knowledge of the "highway code" for boating. We now operate as a "barging school" in France so we maybe have a vested interest, but we know there are a lot of unpublicised incidents attributable to inexperienced pleasure boaters. On the other hand, although I guess UK canals must have got a lot busier than they were, I'm not convinced that a UK licence for "driving" a private boat is necessary, given that there is essentially no working traffic to speak of. I know there is now a boatmaster's licence for people involved in non-pleasureboat activities - passengerboats, work boats etc. I believe that exceptions have been made for most of the peripheral things and that by and large the trade are happy with the present situation. I find it difficult to believe that a licence for your man-in-the-street-on-his-boat could be imposed over the massed objections that would be certain to arise.