Council tax on a boat with none residential moorings

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, David Mack said:

The OP's pattern of movement doesn't look to be sufficient to meet CRT's requirements for CCing. The only way CRT will accept a boat staying on a particular mooring for 3 days a week and travelling a short distance away and back over weekly four day periods is if the mooring is the boat's designated home mooring.

Separately the mooring provider may impose the 3 days per week restriction, but if CRT were aware of this they might conclude that it is not a "mooring or other place where the vessel can reasonably be kept and may lawfully be left (which) will be available for the vessel".

 

Totally agree and this leads us to the conclusion it cannot possibly be a residential mooring whatever the OP thinks or has been told. 

 

Which in turn leads us to the crucial question "Who is demanding council tax to be paid?"

[LadyG]

10 minutes ago, David Mack said:

The OP's pattern of movement doesn't look to be sufficient to meet CRT's requirements for CCing. The only way CRT will accept a boat staying on a particular mooring for 3 days a week and travelling a short distance away and back over weekly four day periods is if the mooring is the boat's designated home mooring.

Separately the mooring provider may impose the 3 days per week restriction, but if CRT were aware of this they might conclude that it is not a "mooring or other place where the vessel can reasonably be kept and may lawfully be left (which) will be available for the vessel".

But the mooring is suitable for the boat, it is the issue of liveaboard that is the problem for the mooring owner.

Personally I think that it would be very difficult for any boat owner, particularly on a river, to move every four days.

I think the CRT might demand a sight of the mooring contract, and maybe it has to be a 6 months contract to satisfy them that it is a Home Mooring. See their website.

It does not help that the licencing changed recently, so now there is either a standard leisure licence or a CC licence.

Edited November 29, 2024 by LadyG

[Alan de Enfield]

50 minutes ago, LadyG said:

it can't be Council Tax which essentially is the Tax charged for houses and a bill is sent to the householder, by name. 

 

Not (generally) in Marinas.

The marina will pay the CT on all of the residential and it works out far far cheaper per boat doing it that way, the boaters then pay the marina owner.

[David Mack]

35 minutes ago, LadyG said:

But the mooring is suitable for the boat, it is the issue of liveaboard that is the problem for the mooring owner.

If the mooring can only be occupied three days per week, CRT may conclude that it is not "available for the vessel", and therefore cannot be a valid home mooring. 

The OP has told us he is on a 6 month licence. This is CRT's usual first sanction for CCers who have not moved sufficiently, so my guess this is why the OP has taken this 'home mooring'.

38 minutes ago, LadyG said:

so now there is either a standard leisure licence or a CC licence.

Not really relevant in this case. There is still one licence, but charged at different rates for those with or without a home mooring. Previously they were charged at the same rate, but the need to either have a home mooring or cruise over a sufficiently wide area has not changed.

[magnetman]

I reckon the OP has been poorly advised by someone in the DwP. It is a known known that people working for this department are inadequately skilled. 

 

I find it entirely reasonable to question whether someone has suggested that council tax can be claimed for and paid to the bank account. 

 

Housing Benefit has changed. I don't know if the OP is on HB or Universal Credit but if it is the second one then it is paid direct to the claimant. 

 

In this sort of situation it could create some potentially interesting situations. 

 

Not that I am wishing to cast the first stone in this regard.

 

 

[LadyG]

25 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

The OP has told us he is on a 6 month licence. This is CRT's usual first sanction for CCers who have not moved sufficiently, so my guess this is why the OP has taken this 'home mooring'.

 

I was trying to simplify the situation

The OP (original poster) has probably not fully understood the need to comply with CRT requirements.

For whatever reason, he has been advised to take a Home Mooring, but then discovers the mooring owner is not allowed to have liveaboards 24/7, though you would think this would have been spelled out before he moved on to the mooring. He is still required by the CRT to navigate, ie move the boat if he is out on the cut.

Edited November 29, 2024 by LadyG

[magnetman]

Just now, LadyG said:

Correct, 

The OP (original poster) has probably not fully understood the need to comply with CRT requirements, by not moving a few miles every fortnight, for whatever reason, he has been advised to take a HomexMooring, but then discovers the mooring owner is not allowed to have liveaboards 24/7, though you would think this would have been spelled out before he moved there.

 

Yes but this still does not answer the question of who the council tax demand is sent to..

 

I am not looking to degrade the value of the original poster's input but more information is needed otherwise it difficult to deal with the query..

 

I am not wishing to sound like AI but 

 

Benefits are claimed including carers allowance

 

Mooring only for 3 days per week

 

Council tax is being asked for 

 

CRT arrr or have been restricting the PBL/PBC for the Boat

 

Something has gone wrong here.

 

 

 

[MtB]

1 hour ago, LadyG said:

I was trying to simplify the situation

 

 

Well you're not succeeding by diverting discussion away from the OP's question about council tax.

 

Stick to the subject, PLEASE. 

 

His question was: "do I need to pay council tax if my moorings are none residential and can only stay at the moorings for 3 days a week"

 

The answer I would suggest is "No". 

 

 

 

Edited November 29, 2024 by MtB
Spelling

[agg221]

I think I understand the situation regarding the mooring and the movement pattern.

 

The boat has a mooring. The boat is allowed to be on that mooring continuously.

The mooring operator does not allow boat owners to be resident more than three nights per week. This is in the Ts & Cs, to demonstrate that the moorings are not residential.

If you have a home mooring, CRT re-sets the clock each time you moor at your home mooring, so each trip out from your mooring can be to the same location (unlike under continuous cruising rules where you are expected to move a reasonable distance). I imagine this was originally envisaged for leisure boaters who could realistically only go to the same location each weekend and then back to the mooring but it is not restricted to that application.

The above means that a liveaboard can comply with the Ts & Cs of both the mooring operator and CRT by spending three nights on the mooring, then four nights on the towpath, then back to mooring for three nights etc. ad infinitum.

 

If the above represents the OP's situation, no council tax would be owed, since they are not resident at the mooring (by definition) but so far as I can see, they are fully compliant with all requirements. I would still check with the Waterways Chaplaincy though as they are best placed to help.

 

Alec

Edited November 30, 2024 by agg221

[MtB]

28 minutes ago, agg221 said:

The mooring operator does not allow boat owners to be resident more than three nights per week. This is in the Ts & Cs, to demonstrate that the moorings are not residential.

 

Good post, but I've never encountered a marina with this T&C. Utterly unenforceable in practice though, which I guess is the point. 

 

If you are right and the OP has this T&C, s/he could probably just ignore it and claim they didn't sleep there last Tuesday if ever challenged. Which they won't be (unless they are making a PITA of themselves in th marina, somehow....)

 

[Ianws]

From reading this thread, the OP @Brian1570 seemed lost in the system and not sure how to navigate it. I know it's a discussion forum but more recent responses, while being informative, have probably just confused things for him. It feels like he needs someone to help him through this situation in a way the forum might not. The waterway chaplain was mentioned. Would they have the relevant knowledge and how would the OP contact them?

[agg221]

8 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Good post, but I've never encountered a marina with this T&C. Utterly unenforceable in practice though, which I guess is the point. 

 

If you are right and the OP has this T&C, s/he could probably just ignore it and claim they didn't sleep there last Tuesday if ever challenged. Which they won't be (unless they are making a PITA of themselves in th marina, somehow....)

 

I have come across this. I can either name the place or describe the circumstances but I can’t do both (sorry this is a bit cryptic but there is a reason). Any preference as to which?

 

Alec

[GUMPY]

At least one local council (Fenland) charges council tax on non residential moorings. 

I believe it went to court and the boaters concerned still have to pay.

Maybe other councils have seen the light and are treating boats/moorings as second homes in order to raise more cash.

 

[magnetman]

@Brian1570

 

Out of interest why do you think you might need to pay council tax? Has someone asked you to pay? Are you hoping to get a council service like CPZ parking?

 

If nobody is asking you to pay council tax then you don't pay it. Unless of course you want a local service which requires council tax to be paid. 

 

A previous neighbour of mine never paid council tax on the residential mooring they were occupying. There were demands sent to the letterbox for 'the occupier' but they ignored them. 

 

Nothing happened. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

17 minutes ago, agg221 said:

I have come across this. I can either name the place or describe the circumstances but I can’t do both (sorry this is a bit cryptic but there is a reason). Any preference as to which?

 

Alec

Name? 

 

If the OP in this case is actually being asked to literally move the Boat rather than 'just not be there' is there some sort of mooring share thing going on enabling the mooring operator to make a little bit more money? 

Sounds like hassle. 

 

 

[blackrose]

22 minutes ago, GUMPY said:

Maybe other councils have seen the light and are treating boats/moorings as second homes in order to raise more cash.

 

I wonder how they determine which boat is being used as a primary residence, second home, leisure only? 

 

Also what's the difference between charging someone council tax on a boat used as a second home and on a motorhome used as a second home which is parked away from the primary residence?

Edited November 30, 2024 by blackrose

[agg221]

1 hour ago, magnetman said:

 

Name? 

 

If the OP in this case is actually being asked to literally move the Boat rather than 'just not be there' is there some sort of mooring share thing going on enabling the mooring operator to make a little bit more money? 

Sounds like hassle.

 

The cruising moorings at High Line on the Slough arm. There are some slight differences in the detail (slightly more flexible in exactly when you take your nights), but the principle is exactly the same and the pattern of occupancy described by the OP is the most common way people comply. It is noticed if you don't, and your contract does not get renewed. Note, High Line does also offer fully residential moorings - these are different.

 

I don't think the OP is being asked to literally move the boat, but that becomes the only option to comply with the other requirements they are being asked to meet.

The OP is only allowed to stay overnight on their boat at the mooring 3 nights a week.

They have two choices - 1. Leave the boat permanently at the mooring and stay somewhere else the other 4 nights. 2. Move the boat off the mooring and stay on it somewhere else.

Because the boat is their residence, 1 is not actually an option for them, so they do 2.

Because of the way CRT rules work when you travel out from your mooring, 2 meets CRT's requirements.

 

Yes it is hassle, but it is compliant and less hassle than being the wrong side of CC rules or losing the mooring if it is in the place you need to be (note they are receiving carer's allowance which strongly suggests they have a real need to be in a particular location).

 

Sorry OP, this doesn't help answer your question much!

 

Alec

 

Edited to add, it is obvious from my original post that something went wrong. It's therefore only fair to add that this was not the fault of either High Line or the moorer in question, and that I am not aware of any reasons why someone considering something similar could not successfully engage with High Line to do so.

Edited November 30, 2024 by agg221

[Arthur Marshall]

On my farm mooring we have several boats, with liveaboard owners, that we rarely see as they cruise for the bulk if the year but retain the mooring for the periods when they need to leave the boat either for holidays or to sort out medical issues. Our moorings are emphatically non-residential, but the landlord has no problems with people staying on board for a week or two when necessary. The relevant boats are presumably classed as having a home mooring, not as continuous cruisers - the "ghost mooring" issue doesnt arise as they're cruising the rest of the time, not using the  mooring as an excuse to stay put. There's no question of council tax.

I can't work out from the OPs posts whether the DWP is paying him a figure for council tax, or is deducting an amount for it from what he's being paid. Or whether he's just getting licence and mooring paid to him, plus carer's allowance and then being billed for CT by the council. Or whether the ciuncil tax payments are being deducted from the carer's allowance. It sounds like the usual total benefits chaos that the DWP manages to create and then blames someone else for.

So the questions seem to be:

Is the OP getting full licence and mooring paid?

Is the carers allowance being paid in full with no deductions?

Is the Council Tax being billed and paid separately by the OP?

Is the CT paid direct to the council by the  OP?

Does the mooring contract specify residential or non-residential (in those words), or just the length of time it can be occupied with someone on board, or is that just a verbal agreement?

It may make a difference whether the mooring is canal or river, too.

 

[LadyG]

11 hours ago, MtB said:

 

 

Well you're not succeeding by diverting discussion away from the OP's question about council tax.

 

Stick to the subject, PLEASE. 

 

His question was: "do I need to pay council tax if my moorings are none residential and can only stay at the moorings for 3 days a week"

 

The answer I would suggest is "No". 

 

 

 

The question has been answered.

Any CT bill ( invoice) is sent to an individual. That individual has then to pay it or contest it.

As far as we know the OP has not recieved an invoice from the Council.

It is unlikely that he will be sent council tax demand.

Edited November 30, 2024 by LadyG

[Paul C]

1 hour ago, blackrose said:

 

I wonder how they determine which boat is being used as a primary residence, second home, leisure only? 

 

Also what's the difference between charging someone council tax on a boat used as a second home and on a motorhome used as a second home which is parked away from the primary residence?

 

There's two answers: one is a motorhome and the other is a boat - it could be argued that being a motorhome squarely puts it into "chattel" category, and it is not considered for council tax to be levied on it.  One could cite the fact that motorhomes predominantly do move, quite extensively, compared to boats which often end up not moving for long periods of time.

 

The other answer is, there is no difference and they may seek to charge council tax on people who reside in motorhomes, which may very well have a negative knock-on effect for those with larger, and eventually smaller, motorhomes too.

[Ewan123]

@Brian1570 there's a Benefits for Boaters group on Facebook which I've seen recommended a few times. I reckon there will be people who have had the same experience and can help you navigate it. https://facebook.com/groups/407453139424368/

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, magnetman said:

If the OP in this case is actually being asked to literally move the Boat rather than 'just not be there'

 

But is he ?

 

He can only spend 3 nights in the marina and, as it is his sole residence (no where else to stay), when he has to have nights away the boat has to go with him.

 

I too would like the actual background or explanation of the actual problem and source of the CT demands.

[tree monkey]

There are two issues here and there is probably no real correlation between them.

The mooring taken because CRT were getting twitchy is none residential and enforced, not ideal for the OP but such is life sometimes.

 

The benefit claims from DWP, there is an assumption that the mooring and DWP are aware of each other or more simply care about what the other is doing, in reality this is rarely the case

 

Council tax demand is often triggered by the benefit claim, not always it depends on how keen each dept is and they don't really care about the mooring conditions, residential or not, what might happen is the planning dept decide on a nice day out and visit the site, that's a whole can of worms best left closed.

 

The mooring conditions have no real relevance to the claim for benefits ( most benefit peeps have no understanding of the issues) or council tax but because the OP has likely put the mooring down on the claim form it has triggered the issue.

 

Its worth repeating in many ways the mooring conditions have no relevance to the claims

 

As has been said the benefits for boaters Facebook site is highly recommended.

[Peanut]

On 29/11/2024 at 19:33, Brian1570 said:

No DWP. Doesn't pay me the council tax it comes out ov my carers allowance 

"No the council is charging me Ive never thought it was right but the DWP pay for my river licence and mooring ..."

 

Maybe, he doesn't pay Council Tax as it not due on his mooring. The DWP show the Council Tax element of his benefits being deducted, as he is not entitled to it.

He sees the deduction as if he were paying Council Tax, and is being short changed.

 

[magnetman]

There is some confusion in the part you quoted. Carers allowance is paid by the DwP. 

 

I'm just idly wondering here if the OP could potentially apply for reasonable provisions and a limited cruising range from the CRT because of being a carer.

 

If one is receiving carers allowance there is a requirement to be looking after someone for 35 hours a week or something like that. That is going to mean geographic restrictions unless the person you are looking after is traveling with you on the Boat. 

 

There are quite a lot of people who do apply for reasonable provisions but I am not sure if being a carer is one of the criteria. 

 

It might be worth asking then if successful just do away with the mooring altogether. 

 

 

Edited December 3, 2024 by magnetman

[LadyG]

3 hours ago, magnetman said:

There is some confusion in the part you quoted. Carers allowance is paid by the DwP. 

 

I'm just idly wondering here if the OP could potentially apply for reasonable provisions and a limited cruising range from the CRT because of being a carer.

 

If one is receiving carers allowance there is a requirement to be looking after someone for 35 hours a week or something like that. That is going to mean geographic restrictions unless the person you are looking after is traveling with you on the Boat. 

 

There are quite a lot of people who do apply for reasonable provisions but I am not sure if being a carer is one of the criteria. 

 

It might be worth asking then if successful just do away with the mooring altogether. 

 

 

I would have thought that having a mooring paid for by someone else is a major benefit, though I must admit to being confused by the earlier wording by the OP.  He already says he has been advised by CRT to take a home mooring.

Presumably the OP has had advice from the Boaters Chaplaincy service,