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Boat Safety Scheme Certificate BSSC/BSC requirements changes


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Just now, Momac said:

So that would be too many examiners prepared to work for too little reward.

 

Precisely, though I am not clear what "too little reward" means.

 

I guess the minimum reward is the UK minimum wage after BSS training, annual registration, business insurance and travel cost are factored in. The other problem is that 40% of BSS examinations take place in the 3 spring months so the job is either a semi retirement activity or a side hustle for general marine trade pro's. 

1 hour ago, LadyG said:

You will have to take them to a tip as I don't think its wise to put them in a standard dustcart. 

I've got some that look about 25 years old, but they are at the back of a locker, so I'd only use them in dire emergency , my own modern ones are are placed conveniently to hand.

 

I believe the concern is that an overzealous examiner will raise a failure if the spares are found. Best hide them off the boat for the duration of the test.

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21 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

I believe the concern is that an overzealous examiner will raise a failure if the spares are found. Best hide them off the boat for the duration of the test.

 

 

Wher do you beleive that from ?

 

I carry £1000's of spares alternator, starter motors, complete johnson pump units, filters, hose, etc etc never had a BSS examiner fail me for that.

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28 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

Precisely, though I am not clear what "too little reward" means.

 

I guess the minimum reward is the UK minimum wage after BSS training, annual registration, business insurance and travel cost are factored in.

 

I'd say you guess wrong then. Self-employed people are not required to charge minimum wage. They can charge as much or as little as they like. 

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1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

I'd say you guess wrong then. Self-employed people are not required to charge minimum wage. They can charge as much or as little as they like. 

 

Not what I said.

 

We are talking about supply & demand. I claim that the supply of registered BSS examiners will fall when the reward after costs approaches the national minimum wage. If they charge too much bookings will tail off, if they charge too little then at some point working a few shifts at B&Q would make more sense.

 

The economics of the whole BSS scheme has dysfunction designed in. The effective daily rate is barely over £100 per day which is not much over minimum wage. Who would risk £ thousands in upfront training costs plus the study time for a parttime £100 / day gig? Experienced marine trade pros might waltz through the training material but they expect £200+ a day.

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I carry £1000's of spares alternator, starter motors, complete johnson pump units, filters, hose, etc etc never had a BSS examiner fail me for that.

 

 

A wonky old alternator in your spares locker is not a BSS failure point. A dodgy fire extinguisher is.

Edited by Gybe Ho
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2 hours ago, LadyG said:

You may have to take them to a tip as I don't think its wise to put them in a standard dustcart. 

I've got some that look about 25 years old, but they are at the back of a locker, so I'd only use them in dire emergency , my own modern ones are are placed conveniently to hand.

You could discharge them then put them in a normal bin.

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The B&Q or Asda worker likely does much better, with holiday pay, sick pay, and the big one, a pension, which would cost a second mortgage to match. Don't believe me? Go online and find out just how much you need as a capital sum to buy even a small pension with inflation proofing. Then how much you need to put away each month.  Number of years to save, times twelve months, and hope you get a good rate of interest to get the sum you need.

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14 minutes ago, Peanut said:

The B&Q or Asda worker likely does much better, with holiday pay, sick pay, and the big one, a pension, which would cost a second mortgage to match. Don't believe me? Go online and find out just how much you need as a capital sum to buy even a small pension with inflation proofing. Then how much you need to put away each month.  Number of years to save, times twelve months, and hope you get a good rate of interest to get the sum you need.

 

Yes but my point about the lowly effective rate of pay for a BSS examiner is valid even when pensions are excluded from the comparison.

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3 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

Yes but my point about the lowly effective rate of pay for a BSS examiner is valid even when pensions are excluded from the comparison.

Of course, but it even worse than suggested, when the real wage is considered, to give a fair comparison.

  • Greenie 1
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I paid £100 for some gas work, plus ££160 for the Cert

, I thern asked him to return, i  was not happy about smell [, rotting vegetation]. he returned immediately,  did another gas integrity  check, indeed the vegetation in the canal was rotting!

All was OK. this time he only charged £20 travel,

 

Edited by LadyG
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20 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

Is that so they alarm before our smoke gets into another boat for the third party safety

The new ones I fitted last week run on 2 AA dry cell batteries and I think but would need to check have a 10 year life 

 

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IMG_20241003_114025.jpg

Just now, Jon57 said:

 

IMG_20241003_114011.jpg

IMG_20241003_114025.jpg

 

IMG_20241003_114032.jpg

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1 hour ago, Gybe Ho said:

A wonky old alternator in your spares locker is not a BSS failure point. A dodgy fire extinguisher is.

 

 

No it isn't

 

These fire extinguishers had a clear 'use by date' printed on them and yet they resulted in a 'pass' BSSC, despite being 5 years beyond their expiry.

 

It suppose it speaks more about the  competence of the surveyors than the system.

 

 

image.jpeg.8f2c373a88a43ebd306a8955e4911647.jpeg

 

 

image.jpeg.0bba9ec3e44938fc7e8562b9959b4790.jpeg

 

 

 

 

35 minutes ago, Jon57 said:

 

IMG_20241003_114011.jpg

IMG_20241003_114025.jpg

 

IMG_20241003_114032.jpg

 

 

But they are Part 1 approved - after the first couple of years following the introduction when Part 1 alarms were allowed, the BSS now 'prefers' Part 2 (Marine) approved alarms.

 

 

Although the BSS accepts CO alarms certified to BS EN 50291, BS EN 50291-1, or BS EN 50291-2, alarms to BS
EN 50291-2 are best suited for boats. The '-2' edition of the BS EN means that the units will have been tested
to meet additional performance standards specifically relevant to boat installation - namely, shock, static
orientation, dynamic orientation, and steady-state acceleration.
Page 54 BSS ECP Appendices Supporting information for Procedures, Processes & Checks [Interim Corrected Ed.4.1.1 – 08/22]
Therefore, although not a BSS Requirement, at the point of selection boat owners are recommended to
choose ‘-2’ units
. The BSS website has a list of ‘-2’ alarms recommended by the makers as suitable for use in
boats www.boatsafetyscheme.org/co

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The financial viability of the whole BSS scheme does not make sense given the figures in the annual report.

 

There are 150 examiners with 20 new qualified examiners each year arriving through the new expanded and more rigorous training scheme.

 

21k tests (success & fail) are performed a year. Given 250 working days per year and one exam per day this equates to an examiner testing capacity of 37,500 tests annually = 78% excess capacity. For 9 months of the year the actual excess capacity is greater as explained earlier.

 

Given a fee of £200 that leaves £128 for the examiner to cover travel costs, BSS annual registration, inspection equipment, insurance, no shows, abandoned tests, bad debts and national insurance v. 8 hours stacking shelves at Tesco at £11.40 per hour = £91.20.

 

There maybe trouble ahead as the song says.

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17 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

And although they state 10  years on them they rarely last more than 5, in my experience and, I hear, that of others.

 

Mine lasted, I changed them last month as the first one I fitted the date was up, so I changed both of them and took the indate one to put up at home 

10 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

The financial viability of the whole BSS scheme does not make sense given the figures in the annual report.

 

There are 150 examiners with 20 new qualified examiners each year arriving through the new expanded and more rigorous training scheme.

 

21k tests (success & fail) are performed a year. Given 250 working days per year and one exam per day this equates to an examiner testing capacity of 37,500 tests annually = 78% excess capacity. For 9 months of the year the actual excess capacity is greater as explained earlier.

 

Given a fee of £200 that leaves £128 for the examiner to cover travel costs, BSS annual registration, inspection equipment, insurance, no shows, abandoned tests, bad debts and national insurance v. 8 hours stacking shelves at Tesco at £11.40 per hour = £91.20.

 

There maybe trouble ahead as the song says.

They don't take all day. Some examiners will do 3 or 4 at the same location in a day, only one lot of travelling, Not all will be charging £200, there is no set price

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3 hours ago, Gybe Ho said:

(snip)

A wonky old alternator in your spares locker is not a BSS failure point. A dodgy fire extinguisher is.

Not if it's one that is in excess of BSS requirements. We have a CO2 extinguisher, which does not meet BSS specs. Not a problem, as the other extinguishers meet the BSS standard.

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33 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

They don't take all day. Some examiners will do 3 or 4 at the same location in a day, only one lot of travelling, Not all will be charging £200, there is no set price

 

 

Not what I said.

 

My main point is that there are not enough boats to keep the 150 UK BSS examiners busy, in practice it is a parttime job. The excess capacity will inevitably lead to a downward price pressure.

 

When modelling the financial viability of a national system, a typical price has to be chosen. A low price is £180 and a high London price is £250. I chose £200, do you have a more realistic price to suggest? I hope it is much higher because in view of the high expectations the forum cognoscenti have of BSS examiners, it seems reasonable they should be paid substantially more than the minimum wage.

 

Some old practitioners might have been able to do 3 to 4 assessments a day under the pre 2021 testing regime but a proper assessment now takes 3 to 4 hours, then there is test registration admin and travel time. To understand where the system is heading, the experience of newly qualified tester needs to be considered. Having blown £8k on training and accreditation costs the newbee is not going have 4 old chums and social acquaintances who will coordinate 4 tests in the same marina on the same day. Between August and February the new tester would be lucky to bank 10 tests a month and many of those will require a trek down the towpath followed by an argument with a CMER who needs to be told to take the Rottweiler for a long walk.

 

A fulltime minimum wage job should put £1400 a month in the bank after tax which is more than a new BSS tester would get 9 months of the year. An 18 year old junior admin at BSS HQ seems better off.

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

No it isn't

 

These fire extinguishers had a clear 'use by date' printed on them and yet they resulted in a 'pass' BSSC, despite being 5 years beyond their expiry.

 

It suppose it speaks more about the  competence of the surveyors than the system.

 

 

image.jpeg.8f2c373a88a43ebd306a8955e4911647.jpeg

 

 

image.jpeg.0bba9ec3e44938fc7e8562b9959b4790.jpeg

 

 

 

 

 

 

But they are Part 1 approved - after the first couple of years following the introduction when Part 1 alarms were allowed, the BSS now 'prefers' Part 2 (Marine) approved alarms.

 

 

Although the BSS accepts CO alarms certified to BS EN 50291, BS EN 50291-1, or BS EN 50291-2, alarms to BS
EN 50291-2 are best suited for boats. The '-2' edition of the BS EN means that the units will have been tested
to meet additional performance standards specifically relevant to boat installation - namely, shock, static
orientation, dynamic orientation, and steady-state acceleration.
Page 54 BSS ECP Appendices Supporting information for Procedures, Processes & Checks [Interim Corrected Ed.4.1.1 – 08/22]
Therefore, although not a BSS Requirement, at the point of selection boat owners are recommended to
choose ‘-2’ units
. The BSS website has a list of ‘-2’ alarms recommended by the makers as suitable for use in
boats www.boatsafetyscheme.org/co

Still allowed thou. 👍 that is the carbon monoxide monitor. The one in the picture is also a smoke detector. 

Edited by Jon57
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46 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

My main point is that there are not enough boats to keep the 150 UK BSS examiners busy, in practice it is a parttime job.

 

I think it always has been a part time job, or an activity for the semi-retired.  The guy who did my last two inspections is also qualified as a surveyor, is Gas Safe registered for boats, and also carries out electrical work. He also used to fit stoves but I think may have given that up as he also a director at a brokerage and carries out brokerage surveys and valuations for them.

 

A previous survey was done for me by someone with another job at a local hire base.

 

I don't know if it is still the case but one module of the training course for BSSS inspectors used to involve a requirement for them to create a business plan for their BSS work before being accepted.

Edited by alias
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44 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

 

My main point is that there are not enough boats to keep the 150 UK BSS examiners busy, in practice it is a parttime job. The excess capacity will inevitably lead to a downward price pressure.

 

 

 

Many BSS examiners do other things in addition to BSS exams, so it being a part-time job is a non-issue.

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1 hour ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

Not what I said.

 

My main point is that there are not enough boats to keep the 150 UK BSS examiners busy, in practice it is a parttime job.  

 

Correct some also do surveying others mend things the one I use runs a marina with a couple of hire boats. The Gas safe registered one probably have a job to fit the BSS work in, Its part of an overall portfolio 

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1 hour ago, matty40s said:

No , it is not.

 

Don't forget that nice Mr Ho knows far more about canal boats than any of us in here, despite never ever having been on one.

 

He has the internet y'know!! 

 

Errr....

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1 hour ago, Iain_S said:

Not if it's one that is in excess of BSS requirements. We have a CO2 extinguisher, which does not meet BSS specs. Not a problem, as the other extinguishers meet the BSS standard.

 

A CO2 extinguisher is a good idea because the alternatives create such a mess when discharged it might delay their timely use. I also understand why keeping out of safety equipment (except flares) is a good idea in view of the limited capacity of retail leisure extinguishers. The question then becomes where to keep the out of date equipment, if it is to be of benefit then it needs to be close at hand. If such extinguishers are positioned to be useful they become a potential BSS failure point if mistaken for the in-date replacement.

 

There is a common belief that it is a good idea to remove out of date equipment for the BSS probably for the reason above.

 

Keeping out of date spares in a locker does not make sense. If the in-date equipment to hand fails to control a fire then rummaging around a locker at the other end of the boat for the spare mid fire risks a fatality through toxic smoke.

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7 hours ago, LadyG said:

I paid £100 for some gas work, plus ££160 for the Cert

, I thern asked him to return, i  was not happy about smell [, rotting vegetation]. he returned immediately,  did another gas integrity  check, indeed the vegetation in the canal was rotting!

All was OK. this time he only charged £20 travel,

 

God, I'm glad I don't work for you in any capacity. Guaranteed to have problems. How can you confuse rotting vegetation in the canal with a smell in a boat?

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