Boat Safety Scheme Certificate BSSC/BSC requirements changes

[Momac]

3 hours ago, PeterF said:

I am.just wondering why you would want to release a CO2 extinguisher in a confined space where the atmosphere is already becoming unbreathable because of the fire. On a narrowboat the extinguisher is to beat a path to the outdoors if the fire is between you and the only escape route. Swap the fire for a non breathable atmosphere in your escape route. The recommendation is not to use in small rooms.

 

https://www.safelincs.co.uk/how-to-use-co2-fire-extinguishers-section/

This is precisely why  a CO extinguisher should not be used inside a boat.

To be honest the dry powder type are not much better.

 

Extinguishers on a boat are not necessarily for putting out a fire but more accurately a device to assist escape(PS as already said).

 

Edited October 4, 2024 by Momac

[Gybe Ho]

1 hour ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Or any. As any boat user know, the BSC is a scam set up to keep boat techs in business, as one electrician who was involved in updating the specs admitted to me. She was just looking for more things to add. It certainly adds nothing to the safety of a boat, either for the owner or the boat next door.

 

The problem is that pubic sector bureaucracies never contract and H&S regulation only grows in scope and complexity. The original 1995 BSS scheme made some sense i.e. a Captain Birdseye or Captain Pugwash character visited your boat for a 1 hour cursory look to identify manifest dangers followed by a chinwag and cup of tea.

 

Todays' expanded BBS is not affordable and this leads to the absurdity of the 20 year old admin processing test certificates at BSS HQ making more money than the examiner. Something has to give and the outcome is a charlatan rubber stamping BSS pass certificates as shown in the YouTube video I linked to above. 

Edited October 4, 2024 by Gybe Ho

[Momac]

I think fire blankets , which are of course a BSS requirement could be more valuable than an extinguisher . For this reason I have two on the boat while I need one for BSS standards. A bonus is  fire blankets have no expiry date.

 

If a boat or a caravan or a car or a house should catch fire the priority is for the owner and everyone inside to escape to safety safety .

Insurance is there to cover the loss due to fire . No insurance claim would be declined because the owner did not fight the fire.

A boat or a car or a house is generally less valuable than a human life.

[Gybe Ho]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

 

There is no need for a narrowboat owner to do anything to improve LFP safety in the absence of BSS guidance, other than the general electrical BSS requirements which apply to any battery installation -- proper cables/connectors, fuses, covered terminals and so on.

 

 

Are there any concerns about cumulative heat generation in large Lithium battery banks? Given the humongous rates of energy conversion when a serial hybrid is at full power (15kW), just 2.5% of chemical conversion inefficiency could result in substantial heat within the battery enclosure.     

[Momac]

5 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

 

'' the absurdity of the 20 year old admin processing test certificates at BSS HQ ''

The certificates are generated electronically  in pdf format .

But BSS do take a fee for each certificate.

[Gybe Ho]

3 minutes ago, Momac said:

The certificates are generated electronically  in pdf format .

But BSS do take a fee for each certificate.

 

Pleased to read this. The BSS HQ annual payroll is just £700k according to that report I linked to earlier, so not exactly a bloated bureaucracy, quite lean in fact compared to the rest of the UK public sector.  

[IanD]

4 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

Are there any concerns about cumulative heat generation in large Lithium battery banks? Given the humongous rates of energy conversion when a serial hybrid is at full power (15kW), just 2.5% of chemical conversion inefficiency could result in substantial heat within the battery enclosure.     

No. 🙂 

 

(unless you're running at or very close to the full rated current for a long time, which is never a good idea).

 

Continuous rated current on some drop-in LFPs with inbuilt BMS is rather small, for example 100A or 200A, and these may get hot -- but it's the BMS that will heat up, not the cells.

 

The cells in my boat are rated for continuous discharge at 2100A which is over 100kW -- though I'm pretty sure extra cooling would be needed since this would give about 5% voltage drop or 5kW dissipation... 😉 

 

So the limit will be cables/contactor/shunt, which are IIRC only rated at 1000A or 50kW -- that would give about 2.5% losses in the battery which is 1.25kW. Sounds a lot, but it would have to heat up 350kg of batteries sitting on the baseplate, that's not going to heat up very quickly.

 

Anyway this is *way* bigger than the 300A needed to drive a 15kW motor, at which point heat in the batteries would be about 100W -- definitely no problem 🙂 

[Gybe Ho]

27 minutes ago, IanD said:

Sounds a lot, but it would have to heat up 350kg of batteries sitting on the baseplate, that's not going to heat up very quickly.

 

Anyway this is *way* bigger than the 300A needed to drive a 15kW motor, at which point heat in the batteries would be about 100W -- definitely no problem 🙂 

 

I noticed you had elected to fit your batteries low down, so in effect you have coopted the entire 2000 mile canal network as a lithium battery heat sink.  Some domestic lithium installs prioritize a cosy frost free position out of concern that ice chilled lithiums in mid winter will work to rule or mount a full on BMS strike. In my mind this creates an inherent conundrum for the designer of a liveaboard serial hybrid, should the batteries be positioned to prioritize mid winter towpath living or power cruising at 10kW up the Severn in mid summer.

 

I had already specced a 1000A Victron Lynx smart shunt in my unconventional circuit diagram. Unfortunately based on previous experience this will not see the light of day on this forum because these diagrams have led to social savagery within 12 hours of upload.

Edited October 4, 2024 by Gybe Ho

[Momac]

Certainly it seems best not to locate batteries on the roof as appears to be suggested in the case of the bus  in the video below

 

[IanD]

12 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

I noticed you had elected to fit your batteries low down, so in effect you have coopted the entire 2000 mile canal network as a lithium battery heat sink.  Many domestic lithium installs prioritize a cosy frost free position out of concern that ice chilled lithiums in mid winter will work to rule or mount a full on strike. In my mind this creates an inherent conundrum for the designer of a liveaboard serial hybrid, should the batteries be positioned to prioritize mid winter towpath living or power cruising up the Severn in mid summer.

 

The batteries are low down not for cooling but because they're heavy and have to go somewhere, and this was the best place to put them in a custom install designed and built from scratch. But one advantage is that they don't get too cold in winter because the baseplate never goes below +4C even if the canal outside freezes -- they're also in a wooden box both for protection and to keep cold air out. As a result they never get even close to the 0C minimum charging temperature, so no heating pads are needed.

 

I know some people have put LFP on the swim in the engine bay -- next to an air intake in one case! -- and have had problems with them getting cold in the depths of winter, and had to install heating pads. The alternative is to put them inside the living space on the assumption that this will be warmer, but then you have much longer cables to the motor/controller -- and also the inverter is usually put inside too next to the batteries, so you have to worry about noise from this. Putting everything in the stern close together avoids all this, but is really only possible with a clean-sheet design not a retrofit.

 

8 minutes ago, Momac said:

Certainly it seems best not to locate batteries on the roof as appears to be suggested in the case of the bus  in the video below

 

Yes, NMC batteries as used in EVs (and I expect this bus, and the Boeing 787...) are really nasty if they catch fire... 😞

 

Doesn't apply to LFP batteries on boats, though. Put them on the roof if you want, they'll be perfectly safe -- at least, until some tealeaf nicks them... 🙂 

Edited October 4, 2024 by IanD

[Gybe Ho]

4 minutes ago, IanD said:

But one advantage is that they don't get too cold in winter because the baseplate never goes below +4C even of the canal outside freezes -- they're also in a wooden box both for protection and to keep cold air out.

 

 

"+4C" is this from a sensor on your boat or received wisdom? I am influenced by Victron's chosen BMS limits, they block charging of their lithiums below +5c.

[IanD]

16 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

"+4C" is this from a sensor on your boat or received wisdom? I am influenced by Victron's chosen BMS limits, they block charging of their lithiums below +5c.

Both. Water a couple of feet down (baseplate) will never get below +4C even if the canal freezes over thickly because that's when it reaches maximum density; any lower than this and density decreases and it rises, which is why ice forms on the surface (and why life on Earth exists at all...). I also monitored the temperatures last winter (sensor inside battery bank) and it never got below +4C even in the coldest period with lots of sub-zero days when the canal froze.

 

Victron are playing safe, you shouldn't charge LFP at full current at low temperatures, so the easy solution is to block all charging below +5C. Actually you can charge LFP at lower currents at lower temperatures without damage, which is what some manufacturers like BYD do to allow their batteries to be used for off-grid even when cold -- their 14kW battery (280Ah) has maximum charging current of 160A (~0.6C) above +12C, 80A (~0.3C) from +2C to +12C, and 60A (~0.2C) from -10C to -2C.

 

Since 0.3C is 210A for my cells (700Ah) and the absolute maximum charging current is from the Quattro is 140A (when running on generator) this isn't a problem... 🙂 

Edited October 4, 2024 by IanD

[cuthound]

4 hours ago, Momac said:

This is precisely why  a CO extinguisher should not be used inside a boat.

To be honest the dry powder type are not much better.

 

Extinguishers on a boat are not necessarily for putting out a fire but more accurately a device to assist escape(PS as already said).

 

 

Sadly water mist fire extinguishers do not meet the BSS requirements, because they are not certified for class B & C fires.

 

https://www.fireservice.co.uk/safety/water-mist-extinguishers/#:~:text=Water Mist Extinguishers with De-Ionised Water&text=They are capable of extinguishing,on B and C fires.

 

I put several water mist installations in data centres, where they can be used on live HV installations up to 35kV. They also do very little damage when triggered by smoke and heat detectors, because they then put the small fire out before it can be established, and do not deprive any people in the area of oxygen, unlike CO2 and gas based systems such as inergen.

 

I think a high pressure pumped water mist system controlled by smoke and/or heat detectors would be perfect for a narrowboat but it isn't likely to happen until the certification standards are changed to accomodate this newer technology.

Edited October 4, 2024 by cuthound
Clarification

[5239]

26 minutes ago, cuthound said:

Sadly water mist fire extinguishers do not meet the BSS requirements, because they are not certified for class B & C fires.

Fire extinguishers are cheap enough in the scheme of things: how about doubling up? a set to please the BSS and a set to do the job?

 

[Gybe Ho]

4 hours ago, Momac said:

I think fire blankets , which are of course a BSS requirement could be more valuable than an extinguisher . For this reason I have two on the boat while I need one for BSS standards. A bonus is  fire blankets have no expiry date.

 

 

The first fire fighting item I bought for my first sailing yacht some 37 years ago was a fire blanket. I sailed between Poole, Chanel Islands, North Brittany, Caen, Honfleur and Brighton with just a fire blanket.

 

Two make more sense. How big are they unfolded?

[cuthound]

29 minutes ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

Fire extinguishers are cheap enough in the scheme of things: how about doubling up? a set to please the BSS and a set to do the job?

 

 

Yes, now that hand held water mist extinguishers are readily available I will probably get a couple to supplement the powder ones.

[dmr]

28 minutes ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

Fire extinguishers are cheap enough in the scheme of things: how about doubling up? a set to please the BSS and a set to do the job?

 

Fire extinguishers are a bit of a BSS checkbox thing. What would be good is a couple of slightly bigger extinguishers of different types just inside the front door, and some really good videos on how to tackle fires of various types, and a guide to what size of fire you can reasonable tackle yourself.

[Gybe Ho]

4 hours ago, IanD said:

 

Victron are playing safe, you shouldn't charge LFP at full current at low temperatures, so the easy solution is to block all charging below +5C. Actually you can charge LFP at lower currents at lower temperatures without damage, which is what some manufacturers like BYD do to allow their batteries to be used for off-grid even when cold -- their 14kW battery (280Ah) has maximum charging current of 160A (~0.6C) above +12C, 80A (~0.3C) from +2C to +12C, and 60A (~0.2C) from -10C to -2C.

 

 

The subject of cold weather lithium charging now makes a lot more sense. Previously I doubted the simplified alternative view that the moment a lithium battery ticked below a magic minimum low temperature it become dangerous or problematic to charge at all.

 

Given my diesel-only design option with 7.2kW of lithium, 1.4kW of solar on the roof, a bright freezing morning with the batteries chilled to +1c, the solar output would not hurt the lithium batteries. Best not fire up the Beta 43 + Travel Pack in these conditions. 

Edited October 4, 2024 by Gybe Ho

[GUMPY]

My LifePo4 battery has built in heaters controlled by the BMS doesn't actually matter what the outside temperature is as the charge temperature limits are rarely ever reached in the UK 😉

 

 

 

 

Edited October 4, 2024 by GUMPY
Word

[5239]

16 minutes ago, dmr said:

Fire extinguishers are a bit of a BSS checkbox thing. What would be good is a couple of slightly bigger extinguishers of different types just inside the front door, and some really good videos on how to tackle fires of various types, and a guide to what size of fire you can reasonable tackle yourself.

you/we need one of these

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/176372812877?chn=ps&_ul=GB&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&amdata=enc%3A16lGvWEnKQHamy-73gK0bcw25&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-134428-41853-0&mkcid=2&mkscid=101&itemid=176372812877&targetid=2425733423477&device=m&mktype=pla&googleloc=9045466&poi=&campaignid=21697391927&mkgroupid=162558106770&rlsatarget=pla-2425733423477&abcId=10027104&merchantid=137674039&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAAD_Lr1dRZfpfUnLRlajOCIB1ihTV4&gclid=Cj0KCQjwpP63BhDYARIsAOQkATaLDtb6BZc4f3YZtGnStOWz6V_c26LdFc-InwhBoFHxzEPCleycfa4aArNHEALw_wcB

 

just make sure you’ve a good bilge pump 

Edited October 4, 2024 by beerbeerbeerbeerbeer

[Momac]

51 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

How big are they unfolded?

I never gave it a thought . But Google suggests  various sizes are available . The smallest  I can see advertised  is 1.0m x 1.0m

[MtB]

26 minutes ago, GUMPY said:

My LifePo4 battery has built in heaters controlled by the BMS doesn't actually matter what the outside temperature is as the charge temperature limits are rarely ever reached in the UK 😉

 

MIne have heaters that are only ever operated by the current from the charger. 

 

If the cells are above the threshold temp (4c or whatever) the charge current charges the cells, but if the temp of the cells is below the threshold, the charge current is switched to the heater elements until the cells rise above the threshold temp. Or so I was told by the bod at LifeBatteries. 

 

 

[GUMPY]

30 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

MIne have heaters that are only ever operated by the current from the charger. 

 

If the cells are above the threshold temp (4c or whatever) the charge current charges the cells, but if the temp of the cells is below the threshold, the charge current is switched to the heater elements until the cells rise above the threshold temp. Or so I was told by the bod at LifeBatteries. 

 

 

That's as I understand it, not much use if your only charge source is intermittent winter sun.

 

[Russ T]

On 04/10/2024 at 12:32, Gybe Ho said:

 

This is a reasonable thought, how can a narrowboat owner with Lithiums take action?

A bit of guidance here. I like that they suggest informing the insurance co.

 

https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/stay-safe-advice/lithium-ion-battery-safety/installed-lithium-ion-batteries/

 

Quote

Tell your insurer

If you install lithium-ion batteries and/or battery systems on your vessel, you must tell your insurer, or risk being left uninsured in the event of an incident.

 

Edited November 26, 2024 by Rod Stewart

[SLC]

A bit late in the day as this appears to be dated October 2024. Nevertheless it is to be welcomed even if it is not enforced!

I note the comment that conventional fire extinguishers may not work. By that I assume they may operate but not extinguish the fire. Begs a question, what fire extinguisher should you use.....

Edited November 26, 2024 by SLC
After thought. Again.