Jump to content

Boat Safety Scheme Certificate BSSC/BSC requirements changes


Featured Posts

2 hours ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

A CO2 extinguisher is a good idea because the alternatives create such a mess when discharged it might delay their timely use. I also understand why keeping out of safety equipment (except flares) is a good idea in view of the limited capacity of retail leisure extinguishers. The question then becomes where to keep the out of date equipment, if it is to be of benefit then it needs to be close at hand. If such extinguishers are positioned to be useful they become a potential BSS failure point if mistaken for the in-date replacement.

 

There is a common belief that it is a good idea to remove out of date equipment for the BSS probably for the reason above.

 

Keeping out of date spares in a locker does not make sense. If the in-date equipment to hand fails to control a fire then rummaging around a locker at the other end of the boat for the spare mid fire risks a fatality through toxic smoke.

If the in date equipment does extinguish a small fire, or is discharged or damaged, then the out of date one(s) can be fished out of the locker and used as spares. Same as keeping that old alternator belt, just in case.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Gybe Ho said:

 I also understand why keeping out of safety equipment (except flares) is a good idea in view of the limited capacity of retail leisure extinguishers.

this sentence does not make sense...

 

The question then becomes where to keep the out of date equipment, if it is to be of benefit then it needs to be close at hand. If such extinguishers are positioned to be useful they become a potential BSS failure point if mistaken for the in-date replacement.

incorrect, so long as you have the correct number of suitable fire extinguishers in relevant places round your boat, it doesnt matter if you have another 20 old ones on your mantelpiece.

 

There is a common belief that it is a good idea to remove out of date equipment for the BSS probably for the reason above.

This is not a common belief I have ever heard of.

  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

 

But someone whose only experience of the Canals and the BSS is You-Tube would not know that.

 

Someone whose principal contribution to the forum is the tedious cut & paste of regulatory text written by others should know a fire extinguisher can be failed for multiple reasons. I initially referred to dodgy extinguishers, you steered the conversation to date stamps. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

34 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

If the in date equipment does extinguish a small fire, or is discharged or damaged, then the out of date one(s) can be fished out of the locker and used as spares. Same as keeping that old alternator belt, just in case.

 

That is true but once a powder extinguisher is discharged it will have created such a mess, normal cruising will be suspended and the fire damage and/or powder mess will need to be assessed for the insurance claim. This is why a CO2 extinguisher is such a good idea because it allows a graduated response to a fire. What does the BSS have against CO2 extinguishers?

4 minutes ago, matty40s said:

What is your definition of dodgy fire extinguishers other than one whose gauge is in the red, has been used,  or is out of date?

 

Bottle corrosion, dodgy looking rubber on the hose, everyday impact damage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

56 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

CO2 does not have a rating for Class A fires

 

Ok thanks. My understanding is now that a CO2 extinguisher is not a black mark in a BSS assessment but it does not count when they tot up extinguishers onboard?

 

 

Back to the OP, if he could track down the BSS examiner who tested the narrowboat in this video he will get pass no matter what!

 

 

Edited by Gybe Ho
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

Ok thanks. My understanding is now that a CO2 extinguisher is not a black mark in a BSS assessment but it does not count when they tot up extinguishers onboard?

 

(snip)

Yep, just like old, out of date, ones in a cupboard!

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It amuses me that you think we can keep an extinguisher which is out of date for emergency use. Where would we store it? My preference is to replace safety items regularly because the last thing you want is for it to fail just when you need it.

We have just replaced our 3 extinguishers. All 3 were 10 years old  one was in the red and another couldn't make its mind up. The third was in the red and so all 3 went.

It is one thing to comply with BSS regulations, another to reduce risk further. BSS regulations regarding lithium batteries is lacking therefore it should be beholden upon users to go further to ensure safe operation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, SLC said:

It amuses me that you think we can keep an extinguisher which is out of date for emergency use. Where would we store it? My preference is to replace safety items regularly because the last thing you want is for it to fail just when you need it.

We have just replaced our 3 extinguishers. All 3 were 10 years old  one was in the red and another couldn't make its mind up. The third was in the red and so all 3 went.

It is one thing to comply with BSS regulations, another to reduce risk further. BSS regulations regarding lithium batteries is lacking therefore it should be beholden upon users to go further to ensure safe operation.

 

True, but LFP batteries are probably safer than LA since there no sulphuric acid and no potentially explosive gassing on charging -- and most LFP installations today use ready-made batteries with inbuilt BMS so they're even safer regarding short-circuits (e.g. causing wiring fires) than LA.

 

Though there is definitely more potential for things to go wrong with a DIY system using bare cells and an external BMS -- given that the cells in mine are rated for 2100A continuous discharge current (7000A short-term peak) I hate to think how much current they'd dump into a short-circuit, a quick estimate from voltage drop curves suggest something like 45000A into a dead short -- assuming infinitely thick cables between the cells, of course... 😉 

Edited by IanD
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, SLC said:

It is one thing to comply with BSS regulations, another to reduce risk further.

 

 

This discussion prompted me to inspect some old sailing & camping extinguishers knocking around the garage. Neither had an expiry date just manufacturing dates (2002 and 2004). The camping one, Italian in origin, has a gauge which is still well in the green zone. The German yachting one just has an obscure date impressed into the metal cylinder. Both look operable.

 

A few years ago I removed a liferaft off my last yacht before it was listed with a broker. The liferaft was 16 years old and had never been serviced and was technically 13 years beyond its first service date. In the garden it inflated with a single yank of the trigger line and held pressure, the rate of inflation of the liferaft was slower than I expect but otherwise all the equipment looked good.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am.just wondering why you would want to release a CO2 extinguisher in a confined space where the atmosphere is already becoming unbreathable because of the fire. On a narrowboat the extinguisher is to beat a path to the outdoors if the fire is between you and the only escape route. Swap the fire for a non breathable atmosphere in your escape route. The recommendation is not to use in small rooms.

 

https://www.safelincs.co.uk/how-to-use-co2-fire-extinguishers-section/

  • Greenie 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, PeterF said:

I am just wondering why you would want to release a CO2 extinguisher in a confined space

 

 

It depends on what you mean by "release".  I am imagining a minor galley fire or DIY accident fire where a fireblanket seems to have controlled a fire but I would like the option to snuff out embers with a few short blasts of CO2. In this situation I would be reluctant to use a BSS approved dry powder red canister because of the horrible after effects for the boat interior.

 

11 minutes ago, PeterF said:

On a narrowboat the extinguisher is to beat a path to the outdoors if the fire is between you and the only escape route.

 

 

Your general message about the priority of getting out is entirely valid, however since this is a BBS thread... "the only escape route"! It sounds like your narrowboat will get a black mark during your next BBS. See the BSS annual report I linked to yesterday.

 

 

58 minutes ago, SLC said:

BSS regulations regarding lithium batteries is lacking therefore it should be beholden upon users to go further to ensure safe operation.

 

 

This is a reasonable thought, how can a narrowboat owner with Lithiums take action?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

Your general message about the priority of getting out is entirely valid, however since this is a BBS thread... "the only escape route"! It sounds like your narrowboat will get a black mark during your next BBS. See the BSS annual report I linked to yesterday.

A traditional back cabin only has one escape route. And the most likely cause of a fire is right next to it!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

It depends on what you mean by "release".  I am imagining a minor galley fire or DIY accident fire where a fireblanket seems to have controlled a fire but I would like the option to snuff out embers with a few short blasts of CO2. In this situation I would be reluctant to use a BSS approved dry powder red canister because of the horrible after effects for the boat interior.

 

Your general message about the priority of getting out is entirely valid, however since this is a BBS thread... "the only escape route"! It sounds like your narrowboat will get a black mark during your next BBS. See the BSS annual report I linked to yesterday.

 

This is a reasonable thought, how can a narrowboat owner with Lithiums take action?

 

The LFP batteries used in boats do not have the catastrophic fire problems that other lithium batteries do (e.g. NMC chemistry), AFAIK there is no recorded case of an LFP fire in any of these cases, and no need to worry about it -- they're safer than LA.

 

Anyone who decides to use ex-EV batteries (almost always NMC) as a DIY solution -- you're on your own, there's the chance of a pretty-much-unstoppable fire if things go wrong, and insurers almost certainly won't cover you. Don't do it. Just don't...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

This is a reasonable thought, how can a narrowboat owner with Lithiums take action?

 

Action in a lithium fire (vanishingly unlikely)?

 

Or action to further reduce the already lower risk that LFPs present? 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Arthur Marshall said:

If they're on fire, run.

True if you've used dangerous ex-EV batteries, get out as fast as you can.

 

If you've used LFP batteries (like most/all boats on the canals) this simply won't ever happen, no need to even worry about it. Much safer than your cooker... 😉 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, IanD said:

True if you've used dangerous ex-EV batteries, get out as fast as you can.

 

If you've used LFP batteries (like most/all boats on the canals) this simply won't ever happen, no need to even worry about it. Much safer than your cooker... 😉 

As said earlier your phone Ipad and electric bike are a much bigger risk.  

 

Just look at the videos on Youtube 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

If they're on fire, run.

 

As I am sure you know, I was asking what can a narrowboat owner do to improve the safety of a lithium battery bank in the absence of BSS guidance?

23 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Action in a lithium fire (vanishingly unlikely)?

 

Or action to further reduce the already lower risk that LFPs present? 

 

 

The latter.

23 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

If you've used LFP batteries (like most/all boats on the canals) this simply won't ever happen, no need to even worry about it. Much safer than your cooker... 😉 

 

 

There is one youtube video of an LFP battery lighting up like a roman candle however that was after an incredible degree of physical abuse including driving a metal rod through the battery casing. The video is Yankee in origin as you no doubt guessed, we Brits are too poor to destroy LFP batteries for social media entertainment.

 

24 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

As said earlier your phone Ipad and electric bike are a much bigger risk.  

 

 

My view is that the biggest fire risk to a narrowboat is another moored boat upwind on a densely packed towpath. A new BBS certificate won't help in this situation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

As I am sure you know, I was asking what can a narrowboat owner do to improve the safety of a lithium battery bank in the absence of BSS guidance?

 

The latter.

 

There is one youtube video of an LFP battery lighting up like a roman candle however that was after an incredible degree of physical abuse including driving a metal rod through the battery casing. The video is Yankee in origin as you no doubt guessed, we Brits are too poor to destroy LFP batteries for social media entertainment.

 

My view is that the biggest fire risk to a narrowboat is another moored boat upwind on a densely packed towpath. A new BBS certificate won't help in this situation.

 

There is no need for a narrowboat owner to do anything to improve LFP safety in the absence of BSS guidance, other than the general electrical BSS requirements which apply to any battery installation -- proper cables/connectors, fuses, covered terminals and so on.

 

AFAIK there is no recorded case anywhere worldwide of an LFP fire on board a boat -- though there are plenty of cases of LA batteries exploding due to ignition of the hydrogen/oxygen emitted during charging, hence the BSS regulations on battery ventilation (LFP don't have this problem).

 

https://marinehowto.com/li-ion-be-careful-what-you-read-believe/

 

"As of yet, in more than 12 years asking for proof with images of a lithium ion phosphate battery fire that was caused by overcharging or malfunction in the BMS and offering to pay for these images we still have no images of a LiFePO4 fire..We even have images of a 12V LiFePO4 battery over-charged at 100+/-V and still there was no fire."

Edited by IanD
  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

new BBS certificate won't help in this situation.

Or any. As any boat user know, the BSC is a scam set up to keep boat techs in business, as one electrician who was involved in updating the specs admitted to me. She was just looking for more things to add. It certainly adds nothing to the safety of a boat, either for the owner or the boat next door.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Paul C said:

Solid fuel stove is probably the biggest risk. Or, trying to light a diesel stove with meths.

Going by recent fatal house fires, charging of escooters/ebikes is rising up the list of causes -- often due to dodgy battery packs/chargers... 😞 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.