New to canals... a couple of questions

[Alan de Enfield]

20 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

do wonder why life rings are not mounted within reach of the helm on narrowboats. I would feel uncomfortable not being able to chuck a lifering into the water in less than 3 seconds. There is a harrowing tale on YouTube of a lady who fell in and got her trousers mangled in the prop, in a situation like that seconds count.

 

 

The majority of canals are less than 3 feet deep so you just stand up and walk to the boat / canalbank.

Rings are useful around deeper water such as locks

[adam1uk]

55 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

I do wonder why life rings are not mounted within reach of the helm on narrowboats. I would feel uncomfortable not being able to chuck a lifering into the water in less than 3 seconds. There is a harrowing tale on YouTube of a lady who fell in and got her trousers mangled in the prop, in a situation like that seconds count.

 

 

If someone is being pulled into the prop, I'm not sure a life ring would be much use.  In such a situation, the helm should be stopping the prop turning, by at least putting the engine in neutral if not turning it off, rather than throwing a life ring.

[Lypiatt]

Thanks all for the responses, much appreciated.

 

The one canal hire I've done already taught me the canals are not a long narrow sea, it'll take me a while to adjust.

 

My own boats were a 40ft catamaran (south coast, channel crossings) and a 50ft powerboat (2 x 600hp Volvos - south coast and IoS trips), plus lots of chartering overseas. I have skippers certs and the european inland cert (CENVI if memory serves). All of which leads me to always want someone on the helm until firmly attached to the shore, never get off the boat leaving the engine running, never try to handle the boat manually with its lines etc etc - all of which went to pot on a canal 😀

 

'Never jump off the boat' carried over, as did 'if in doubt why not stop'.

 

Why thrusters? As a stress reducer. Are they strictly necessary, well no, but are they nice to have, well yes they are. E.g. turning 180 degrees in a confined space, getting into a berth only as long as the boat, steering in reverse. It is possible to do these things without, but easier with, and I'm all for a simple life. I happily accept some people can handle a boat better than me and know they don't get tense in close quarters handling, but I like the get out of jail free card.

 

Thanks again for the help and not making too much fun of a newbie!

[Lypiatt]

20 hours ago, Stroudwater1 said:

Coincidentally I had a friend live in Lypiatt Court Cheltenham years ago.

 

I live on Lypiatt Terrace!

[Gybe Ho]

44 minutes ago, adam1uk said:

 

If someone is being pulled into the prop, I'm not sure a life ring would be much use.  In such a situation, the helm should be stopping the prop turning, by at least putting the engine in neutral if not turning it off, rather than throwing a life ring.

 

The couple documented their experience in detail in the YouTube episode, an everyday cruise turned to near downing in 2 minutes. The husband explains his mindset prior to his wife falling in, he was focused on collision avoidance and continued to try and drive out of the situation after she fell in. Her leg was mangled by the powered up prop, but worse her torn trousers wrapped around the prop and she was tethered under water. The wife kept her head above water by hanging onto something, maybe the aft fender attachment while the husband cut her leg free via the weed hatch.

 

Her leg was saved but she was hospitalized for a week or two.

 

If sailing yachts were subject to a marine BSS, then storing a lift ring on a foredeck just 30ft away that would be a failure point. I guess the BSS has evolved to address a different set of risks.

[nb Innisfree]

Canal boating is, generally quite safe but  while reversing it's highly dangerous. It's been a few years now since the harrowing death of a woman dragged into the prop in a lock in view of her family, (Cropredy IIRCC) I said it then here and I'll say it again now, morse controls should be spring biased into neutral when in reverse, that is, to stay in reverse the lever must be held there. 

[Ronaldo47]

22 hours ago, Lypiatt said:

I hired on the Grand Union a few weeks ago and enjoyed it (Foxton Locks etc).

 

I naively expected to be passing pubs / villages every few hours, but found it was very pretty, but also very quiet, so had under provisioned for eating on the boat. The experience wasn't bad at all, just not what I'd expected.

 

We did the section beween Watford Gap,  Foxton and Leicester (omitting the Welford and the Market Harborough arms) in 1977, before the widespread closure of country pubs, and also found very limited facilities there, certainly the worst of any of the other canals we have covered. One of our party had a guide book which mentioned that that area had been devastated by the Black Death in the Middle Ages and the population had never really recovered. Certainly looking at the map, the settlements and roads were much more widely spaced than in other places I have visited.

Edited July 12 by Ronaldo47

[nb Innisfree]

One of many. 

 

https://acrobat.adobe.com/id/urn:aaid:sc:EU:5e382a37-5099-4592-a826-3cfde82c521c

 

 

[Gybe Ho]

6 minutes ago, nb Innisfree said:

One of many. 

 

https://acrobat.adobe.com/id/urn:aaid:sc:EU:5e382a37-5099-4592-a826-3cfde82c521c

 

 

Instructive MAIB reports are something narrowboaters and mariners have in common. 

[Stroudwater1]

28 minutes ago, nb Innisfree said:

I said it then here and I'll say it again now, morse controls should be spring biased into neutral when in reverse, that is, to stay in reverse the lever must be held there. 

It’s a thought, will that prove a hinderance to reversing though?  Suddenly as well as concentrating where you are going, you are bent over pushing the control too? It could make it more likely to topple over by hitting a bank when looking at the control for example. Not all are near the tiller. 
 

I can see some folk putting a piece of elastic on to hold the control open. Bought a secondhand hedge cutter recently where the hand safely control was taped shut. Same with lawnmowers. 

[nb Innisfree]

18 minutes ago, Stroudwater1 said:

It’s a thought, will that prove a hinderance to reversing though?  Suddenly as well as concentrating where you are going, you are bent over pushing the control too? It could make it more likely to topple over by hitting a bank when looking at the control for example. Not all are near the tiller. 
 

I can see some folk putting a piece of elastic on to hold the control open. Bought a secondhand hedge cutter recently where the hand safely control was taped shut. Same with lawnmowers. 

If folk fall in for that reason at least the prop will have stopped and instead they will get a soaking, better than being mangled I would think. 

As for the latter there's no solution to idiots. 

Edited July 12 by nb Innisfree

[MtB]

3 hours ago, Gybe Ho said:

There is a harrowing tale on YouTube of a lady who fell in and got her trousers mangled in the prop, in a situation like that seconds count.

 

Better spend those three seconds putting the transmission into neutral before faffing about with life-rings. Bear in mind the water is rarely more than about 3ft deep!

 

There was a case about 15 years ago of a woman with the boat in hard astern in a lock, stuck because they were cruising with side fenders down. The boat came free and shot backwards to hit the gate.  The gate strike shot her off the back and she was sucked into the prop by the engine being in full astern. I doubt a life ring would have helped her it as all happened so quick. 

 

I think chucking a life ring is quike likely to hit and damage the victim. A line with a monkey fist tied on the end would probably be more help, if they are not standing up and wading out. 

 

 

[David Mack]

5 hours ago, Gybe Ho said:

I confused the hire boat company by asking where the cooling water strainer was.

Some of us have one! But the risk of getting debris sucked into the cooling system is much greater on a narrow shallow canal than the open sea, hence the vast majority of narrow boats (with water cooled engines) have closed cooling systems with skin tanks to transfer the engine heat to the canal water.

6 hours ago, Gybe Ho said:

I see this on YouTube narrowboating vLogs, is it wrong?

It generally isn't needed. You line the boat up roughly on approaching the lock, then adjust your position to steer the bows into the lock entrance, then if necessary kick the stern across to line up with the lock. If you can't get a straight approach due to the local layout, boats in the way or being pushed off course by the wind or water movement you just do much the same, but expect a bit more bumping and scraping as you enter the lock. Bowthrusters can be useful if the boat is almost stationary, but if you have any significant forward speed they are usually rather ineffective, so you have to use the tiller to steer anyway.

4 hours ago, Gybe Ho said:

I do wonder why life rings are not mounted within reach of the helm on narrowboats. I would feel uncomfortable not being able to chuck a lifering into the water in less than 3 seconds. There is a harrowing tale on YouTube of a lady who fell in and got her trousers mangled in the prop, in a situation like that seconds count.

Life rings are sometimes stowed on hooks attached to the rails around cruiser sterns, or on the roof at the back of the cabin, both accessible to the steerer.

But in the incident you refer to the lady's trousers were probably already caught on the prop within the 3 seconds it would take you to throw a life ring in. Far more important for the steerer to stop the prop rotating (engine in neutral or preferably stopped) first, and then attend to the needs of the person in the water.

Edited July 12 by David Mack

[MtB]

.

Edited July 13 by MtB

[Paul C]

1) If ever someone fell in near the prop of our boat, the first thing I'd do is go for the ignition and kill the engine.

2) Our boat has a lifering which is reachable from the controls/stern deck while driving. Never needed it, probably wouldn't bother to deploy on a shallow/normal section of canal, but we occasionally go on deeper canals and rivers so its there ready for use.

[Stroudwater1]

6 hours ago, Paul C said:

1) If ever someone fell in near the prop of our boat, the first thing I'd do is go for the ignition and kill the engine.

2) Our boat has a lifering which is reachable from the controls/stern deck while driving. Never needed it, probably wouldn't bother to deploy on a shallow/normal section of canal, but we occasionally go on deeper canals and rivers so its there ready for use.

 

It’s best to do test trials but I suspect you would scrabble quicker in a panic by putting into neutral than finding and turning a key. Adrenaline has horrible effects one of which can make people shaky in their limbs. 
 

Its a moot point for us as the ignition is in the engine room. We do have an emergency one but the flywheel continues to rotate for a while anyway. Each trip I do a surprise test for others on board to put the engine into neutral. 

[Ronaldo47]

On some of the boats we used to hire, turning off the engine involved opening the rear doors (if closed),  ducking under the sliding hatch (if raining),  going down three steps into the cabin, bending down, and pulling on a knob under the treads that was on the end of a rod connected to the engine.

 

On more recent ones, it was only necessary to turn the ignition key, but that still meant opening the rear doors, if closed. 

Edited July 12 by Ronaldo47

[Paul C]

13 minutes ago, Ronaldo47 said:

On some of the boats we used to hire, turning off the engine involved opening the rear doors (if closed),  ducking under the sliding hatch (if raining),  going down three steps into the cabin, bending down, and pulling on a knob under the treads that was on the end of a rod connected to the engine.

 

On more recent ones, it was only necessary to turn the ignition key, but that still meant opening the rear doors, if closed. 

Maybe I needed to preface it with "all else being equal" I'd go for ignition first? Obviously there's some boats which hide away the ability to stop the engine quickly in an emergency. And having the ignition inside makes running the engine while moored up in the rain, nicer.

[Gybe Ho]

10 hours ago, MtB said:

Better spend those three seconds putting the transmission into neutral before faffing about with life-rings. Bear in mind the water is rarely more than about 3ft deep!

 

 

I have searched for that YouTube video but cannot find it. The sequence of events were not what you are picturing, what is interesting are the precursor events that perturbed an otherwise competent husband & wife crew and triggered the husband to make an awful mistake. As his wife fell in the husband had been mentally committed to a collision avoidance challenge and he continued to power up after her failed jump-aboard at a lock exit. For some reason it took him an extra 10 or so seconds to comprehend that a body in the water at the stern was a greater priority than more thrust to avoid a low speed narrowboat impact. He responded admirably once he understood his wife faced a drowning risk.

 

 

Edited July 13 by Gybe Ho

[LadyG]

21 hours ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

 

Think about it, which is best choice, an empty tube which you don't need or a full size watertank.

My boat once had a bow thruster, until the tube corroded, glug glug. The motor is still in situ.

If I were to fall in, while in gear, I would push myself away from the boat if possible.

Attached to my stern , there is a frame which aids access and prevents exit over the back.

Edited July 13 by LadyG

[Slim]

21 hours ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

Toilets are the narrowboater's equivalent to anchors in the marine world it seems.

 

I do wonder why life rings are not mounted within reach of the helm on narrowboats. I would feel uncomfortable not being able to chuck a lifering into the water in less than 3 seconds. There is a harrowing tale on YouTube of a lady who fell in and got her trousers mangled in the prop, in a situation like that seconds count.

 

OK this is starting to make sense. Think I will specify a BT tube for my shell but delay the decision on fitting a thruster for a season or two. Need to remember to specify a battery tray in the bow locker and to fit some BT control wires between the bow and stern.

In part 'thruster or no thruster depends upon age and whether solo or not. I took up ditchcrawling when I was about 50 and much of it was solo. Initially I thought to have one would be a bit 'girlie'. Strangely, as the years passed bow thrusters looked far more attractive🤩  

[BilgePump]

9 hours ago, Ronaldo47 said:

On some of the boats we used to hire, turning off the engine involved opening the rear doors (if closed),  ducking under the sliding hatch (if raining),  going down three steps into the cabin, bending down, and pulling on a knob under the treads that was on the end of a rod connected to the engine.

 

On more recent ones, it was only necessary to turn the ignition key, but that still meant opening the rear doors, if closed. 

Our old 1991 engine was stopped with similar. Always called it the decompression cable but don't know if that's the right term or not. It was mounted on the same guard rail stanchion as the Morse control and could be reached from the tiller. Throw engine into neutral and then, if necessary, slowly pull that cable to stop it. Pull it too fast and the engine would keep going so you'd have to depress it back and then try again. Once stopped, you could then turn off the ignition key, mounted on the outside of the cabin bulkhead in a lockable box.

[David Mack]

5 hours ago, BilgePump said:

Throw engine into neutral and then, if necessary, slowly pull that cable to stop it. Pull it too fast and the engine would keep going so you'd have to depress it back and then try again.

My experience is that you pull the knob at any time and the engine stops, whether in neutral or not. The more common problem arises when you forget to push the knob in again, and the engine won't start.

[ditchcrawler]

On 11/07/2024 at 17:16, LadyG said:

Yes, horrible screeching noise , probably then feels the need needs to moor up right in front of me and run the engine for two hours to recharge the batteries.

I just had one of those new electric narrowboats go by, the bowthuster sounds louder with no engine noise 

On 12/07/2024 at 10:45, Gybe Ho said:

I wish I had taken some red and green sticky insulation tape because my most useful contribution on the day was getting the new crew to recite "Red to Red go ahead" and "Green likes grass". Why don't hire boat companies paint red and green circles on the aft bulkhead to assist their customers!

L and R would be more use, the only time you need colours is for the buoys on the Thames on the shoals 

[LadyG]

6 hours ago, Slim said:

In part 'thruster or no thruster depends upon age and whether solo or not. I took up ditchcrawling when I was about 50 and much of it was solo. Initially I thought to have one would be a bit 'girlie'. Strangely, as the years passed bow thrusters looked far more attractive🤩  

Im older than most, i bring the boat alongside slowly then when boat has stopped i take the centreline and tàke a turn round the bollard.

If you have a crew then he can do leaping off, but he wont hold a 15 tonne boat travelling at five knots.

Ive only had one significant arrival at a lock landing when a crew would have been very usefull,   and once I hit a lock on entering due to strong byewash pushing boat unpredictably i dont think a bowthruster would have helped in either situation.