Building a Category C narrowboat!

[Tony Brooks]

3 minutes ago, howardang said:

If you are serious about combining offshore cruising with inland waterways my suggestion would be, before you waste time, energy and mony on building a compromise vessel, is to get some experience of offshore conditions and requirements (and limitations. You mention certain requirements but you don't speak of any experience of conditions offshore, and the demands required of a boat and crew. Have you any knowledge of realistic conditions which you may find and level of experience required to be confident in venturing offshore. This sounds very much like a pipe-dream which will never come to reality. Much better to take the earlier advice to buy a narrow boat and spend some time exploring inland waterways and then see if your dream exists. If so, get some experience in offshore boats - possibly by taking a few RYA courses, before wasting money on what might be an unrealistic pipe-dream.

 

Howard 

 

 

Totally agree. I understand that the crew on I Frances (the "narrowboat" that crossed the Atlantic) said never again because of the discomfort and the fact they went backwards for much of the time.

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

1 hour ago, Tam & Di said:

 

And how long do you think it would take to get such a vessel built and all its systems properly tested? Most of the options quoted are possible, but why would you have them? Boats cross the Channel without Cat B and C - it just takes careful choice of when. It's doubtlessly possible to design a boat with fully automatic controls that could run up and down the sytem with no-one on board if you really tried.

 

People enjoy boats for any number of reasons - exploring canals, visiting pubs, widlife and bird watching - all perfectly reasonable. We had owners at our yard who visited their boat on the hard every weekend for years, and never had any realistic expectation of cruising. For some the dream of designing their perfect boat is their major hobby, and perhaps the OP gets more from this than ever he would if the project came to conclusion.

It would take years and a vast sum of money well over £500K and the rest if any boat builder would want to do it.
 That’s why I asked his age and how much he is willing to spend on what could turn out an expensive “White Elephant” that never gets finished or leaves the boat yard.

Edited April 23 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[IanD]

5 hours ago, Stroudwater1 said:

There’s also the Wye invader that regularly cruises the Severn estuary/ tidal River Wye. Theres much YouTube on their exploits. 
 

Folk here do regularly make crossings of the Mersey or Ribble link or tidal Trent to Keadby and less navigate the Trent into the Humber Thames/Medway or the Wash . Care needs to be exercised of course.  
 

A few narrowboats have gone over to the French canals though most of these have got craned out in the UK and craned back in on French canals. Several detailed blogs exist , and I believe some are members here. Theres a change in times you can’t generally have unrestricted stay over in Europe but one for you to look into if you are wanting that. (cue posters muscling in on Brexit debates- please don’t, it’s as boring as the RCD/RCR comments ) 

 

Im sure some on here can advise about the electric motor side. @IanD has recently had one built. I imagine he will want  to do some of the occasional trips mentioned above. I fear you will be compromising too much if you concentrate on sea worthiness though and you will lose much cruising time with the sort of alterations you describe.  
 

 Best to focus on what your main wants are. If it’s mostly marine cruising then the compromise maybe unnecessary and best buy a different type of boat

 

A posting on here re the Wye invader 

 

 

 

All the CART waterways and rivers including Ribble Link, Trent etc. are perfectly doable on a properly designed series hybrid boat, as is crossing open water areas like the Wash in good weather, because typical power use is quite small and high power (well, not that high, maybe 15kW/20hp maximum for a narrowboat) won't be needed for more than a few hours.

 

But for a boat to be able to cross the Channel and navigate strong flows on large rivers abroad (as well as travel on the inland canals) where you may need lots of power for long periods -- and long range -- a parallel hybrid with a big diesel (for offshore) and smaller electric motor (for still waters) makes much more sense. If you want something getting on for 100hp for many hours (in a seagoing wideboat) the cost/size/weight of electric motor/batteries for a series hybrid will be huge, and there's still the risk of running out of juice.

[ditchcrawler]

From Facebook a boater who does a bit of extreme boating 

[Paul C]

I don't know of anyone who builds Cat C "sailaway" hulls. I imagine the cost is a bit more than a narrowboat sailaway. As above though, the laws of physics dictate that a boat designed for Cat C is going to be boat shaped (and draft), thus not really suitable for canals or living aboard (since the 6'10" width and being boat shaped will render it very small inside).

[Ewan123]

Sounds like fun if you've got the time, money and patience for the build

 

On 22/04/2024 at 19:41, dreamboater said:

 I want to be able to cross the Mersey as well as go down the Severn.

 

I wonder whether you might just be over thinking it all though. So long as you can wait for good conditions (never a bad idea anyway) these journeys have been completed by many standard narrowboats already. We're crossing the Mersey this coming Monday as it happens, nothing special about our narrowboat

[Stroudwater1]

3 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

From Facebook a boater who does a bit of extreme boating 

I think that is the Wye invader 2- they have traveled up Maisemore and Llanthony weirs. Saves bothering the lockie at Gloucester I suppose ? 

[dreamboater]

I think I should clarify that 90% of the time I will be on narrow canals as that's where my mooring is on the T&M!!!!!

 

I'm convinced the dream is too big to be able to "do both". And I'm actually pretty risk averse and not looking to do any rough seas. I said "Cat C" but the certification part isn't really important to me. 

 

My question is about what I can do at the design stage to make it safer to do some estuary crossings and maybe mild sea crossings to really open up the network in a way that it isnt with my 70' trad.

 

Here are the crossings I would like to be able to do a few times per year as I make my way round the network:

 

1. Anderton to the Weaver then Manchester Ship Canal to Ellesmere Port

2. Out Eastham locks across the Mersey and into Liverpool docks via Brunswick lock

Ribble link

3. Over the pennines, then rounding Trent Falls from Ouse to Trent on the Humber

4. Severn from Sharpness to Avonmouth

5. Boston across the wash to Ouse / Nene

6. Out onto the Dee at Chester, if that ever gets opened up again, up to Farndon

7. MAYBE Humber to Ancholme / Hull River

8. And just one to get you all to throw things at me, wash to Yarmouth to visit the Broads

 

I was always taught it's obscene to talk about money but as for budget, at a push I could do about 400K but I was hoping to get away with closer to half that.

 

Was just thinking some of you would like to dream with me... what features would you give your boat to give you confidence to do those passages? I'm thinking a 10knot top speed, no air holes below the roof line, lighter superstructure and extra weighted ballast (say a 20mm base plate), that kind of thing.

 

Yes I know that some of the locks have shrunk over the years and 6'10" is the conventional wisdom. In most instances my 6'10" beam boat has PLENTY of wiggle room, so I was thinking I could perhaps push it to 7'. the only locks I can remember being a bit tight were the entrance to the Llangollen.

 

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

13 minutes ago, dreamboater said:

1. Anderton to the Weaver then Manchester Ship Canal to Ellesmere Port

2. Out Eastham locks across the Mersey and into Liverpool docks via Brunswick lock

Ribble link

3. Over the pennines, then rounding Trent Falls from Ouse to Trent on the Humber

4. Severn from Sharpness to Avonmouth

5. Boston across the wash to Ouse / Nene

6. Out onto the Dee at Chester, if that ever gets opened up again, up to Farndon

7. MAYBE Humber to Ancholme / Hull River

8. And just one to get you all to throw things at me, wash to Yarmouth to visit the Broads

 

1 to 7 can be (or have been) done by a well founded narrowboat in the correct conditions.

 

No8 - It has been asked before and there are threads on the forum about it. Having done the East coast regularly in a sea-going Cat A boat,(Based in Hull) and having about 40 years experience of NBs, no way would I take a NB down that stretch of water. Not much in the way of 'ports of refuge' for when the forecast changes for the worse, and you still have hours to go.

 

A beautiful flat calm day, we were leaving Wells Next The Sea (Norfolk coast) as we left the channel and approached the No1 fairway buoy the wind, waves and tide picked up - we spend well over an hour climbing and sliding down waves 5-8 metres high making absolutey no foward movement at all, (you cannot turn around and go back or will be rolled over) the dogs were sick it was awful.

We eventually got thru it (it was only a 2-300 yards wide) and we were back in flat calm waters and continued on our way down to Gt Yarmouth.

 

The forecast was absolutely spot on - just local conditions combined to make a very rough sea.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 24 by Alan de Enfield

[Tony Brooks]

 

I don't think any of that apart from the last is beyond a conventional narrowboat. the reason the last is iffy, is that it is a long costal passage with little, if any, shelter along the way, so it would be very vulnerable to changes in the weather. it is also shallow in sea terms, so is likely to build up larger swells with wind.

 

My own personal views, others will differ.#

 

With the comparatively large weight of ballast, most narrowboats carry they tend, to roll less than the narrow beam suggests but are still likely to be uncomfortable. They tend to cut through waves rather than ride over them, so large waves may well swamp an open well deck. If one did roll onto its side the as long as the ballast did not move it would probably right itself like RNLI lifeboats do.

 

So, a thick (possibly 25mm or thicker) to avoid the need for loose ballast and any further ballast needed being steel and welded to the baseplate. Properly calculated ribs, stringers and possibly a keelson to ensure the hull can stand the extra stresses it is likely to suffer in a bad sea. No windows. but use proper marine portholes, so they are unlikely to blow in if a wave hit them. Trad stern with stern doors that can be close while boating to avoid a following wave flooding the boat. No well deck or a well deck with a removable watertight cover. Large bilge pumps for all bilges and the well deck. Folding or removable mast(s) to mount navigation lights to meet the regulations, also the VHF aerial. Valves on all the hull piercings. High (roof) level air supply vent for the engine. Exhaust with a proper high level swan neck so following waves can't flood the engine internals.

 

But most of all, experience and knowledge so you don't put yourself and boat into danger. The design would need experience, hence a couple of us mentioning the need for a naval architect for the design and calculations.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

In addition to the design features @Tony Brooks goes through above, I'd add that it needs a sufficiently large skin tank that the engine won't overheat when being worked hard. Narrowboat engines get an easy life crawling on the ditches, but hours at higher power on a long tidal passage will show up any lack in cooling capacity. The tidal river Trent causes cooling problems on narrowboats regularly.

Cleanliness of the fuel tank is also important as part of the boats regular maintenance. Any water, or sludge in the bottom of the tank is usually not much of a concern, other than as a breeding ground for diesel bug, but in a swell, it can get disturbed and sucked in to the supply pipe. Eventually this will overload filters and water traps, stopping the engine.

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

It’s not obscene to talk about budgets as without a healthy budget it’s pointless having all these ideas as you couldn’t afford them.

 Your lower £200K budget wouldn’t even work for a standard all electric narrowboat, but add on all the extras, technical, 10Knt electric motor speed, extra steel work for the 10% of cruising you think you need these ideas for then £400K could soon disappear. 
 I don’t know why your overthinking so much, as all the routes you mention have been done by Narrowboats from what I’ve seen, so why not just get a good shorter Narrowboat with a large HP diesel engine and enjoy it before your too old. How old are you?

  

 

6 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

In addition to the design features @Tony Brooks goes through above, I'd add that it needs a sufficiently large skin tank that the engine won't overheat when being worked hard. Narrowboat engines get an easy life crawling on the ditches, but hours at higher power on a long tidal passage will show up any lack in cooling capacity. The tidal river Trent causes cooling problems on narrowboats regularly.

Cleanliness of the fuel tank is also important as part of the boats regular maintenance. Any water, or sludge in the bottom of the tank is usually not much of a concern, other than as a breeding ground for diesel bug, but in a swell, it can get disturbed and sucked in to the supply pipe. Eventually this will overload filters and water traps, stopping the engine.

On his first post he’s talking about electric drive. So maybe he’s going the all electric route? So no big diesel engine.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

5 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

On his first post he’s talking about electric drive. So maybe he’s going the all electric route? So no big diesel engine.

Well spotted. However, @IanD has pointed out that a diesel generator is likely to be essential for some long tidal passage to avoid running out of juice.

[IanD]

2 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Well spotted. However, @IanD has pointed out that a diesel generator is likely to be essential for some long tidal passage to avoid running out of juice.

Indeed, and it'll need to be a pretty damn big and expensive one to provide the power levels required, not a 9kVA midget like mine... 😉 

Edited April 24 by IanD

[Tony Brooks]

7 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

On his first post he’s talking about electric drive. So maybe he’s going the all electric route? So no big diesel engine.

 

Ian D answered that pretty fully.  If he wants a sustained 10 knots, especially in adverse conditions, then he is going to need a big diesel generator to provide the power when is batteries run out, and at present that won't take very long at all. However, he does seem t be altering his wants to be a bit more realistic.

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

23 minutes ago, IanD said:

Indeed, and it'll need to be a pretty damn big and expensive one to provide the power levels required, not a 9kVA midget like mine... 😉 

And you know the “reality” of the cost of a new all electric boat and what it entails for it to work efficiently, unlike most on here. I don’t want to be disrespectful to the OP but when he says he’s hoping more like just over £200K I thought he needs a big reality check. Even making the beam 7’ instead of 6’10” with 20mm base plate adds £thousands and the extra 2” beam will add no major improvements but could add significant problems with locks.

Edited April 24 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[PeterF]

£200k will not cover a quality bespoke narrowboat these days with a standard 40hp diesel engine and for this type of work you will not be talking to the budget builders or volume builders with standardised designs. When you come to sell it, who is going to values the extras.

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, PeterF said:

When you come to sell it, who is going to values the extras.

 

In fact I think it would make for a very gloomy, stuffy boat, so it would probably fetch less than a comparable conventional boat.

[IanD]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Ian D answered that pretty fully.  If he wants a sustained 10 knots, especially in adverse conditions, then he is going to need a big diesel generator to provide the power when is batteries run out, and at present that won't take very long at all. However, he does seem t be altering his wants to be a bit more realistic.

To sustain 10kts in open water a narrowboat will need about a 70hp diesel or a 52kW (continuous) electric motor according to Vicprop, and a massive battery bank (200kWh?) and generator -- if you want to be able to keep this up for hours after the batteries are depleted, something like a 60kVA generator to allow for losses. That's getting on for 4x the motor power and 7x the generator capacity that I've got -- finding space for such a genny (which would probably also weigh getting on for a ton!) on a narrowboat would be challenging to say the least, and it would burn about 20l/hr of diesel.

 

Apart from the challenges of fitting all this in, I doubt that there'd be any change from £100k just for the propulsion/electrical system, and it could well cost more given the power levels involved.

 

A series hybrid makes a lot of sense for UK canals where average power demand is very low (a few kW) and even maximum demand is quite low (up to 15kW for a few hours). It doesn't make sense for a boat which needs to sustain 10kts in open water for long periods, a parallel hybrid with a 70hp diesel and a much smaller electric system for canal use is a far better and cheaper solution. Just like hybridmarine say... 😉 

Edited April 24 by IanD

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

7 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

In fact I think it would make for a very gloomy, stuffy boat, so it would probably fetch less than a comparable conventional boat.

As I said I can’t work the build spec out as I don’t think any of it is needed for the the 10% he says he’ll not be on the canals.

 

1 hour ago, dreamboater said:

I think I should clarify that 90% of the time I will be on narrow canals as that's where my mooring is on the T&M!!!!!

 

Edited April 24 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[blackrose]

On 22/04/2024 at 20:17, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

... and when you’ve done all you want of that, sell it and buy a coastal cruiser and do coastal waters? 

 

I was going to say... If you want a go anywhere boat why would you choose a narrowboat? As much as a NB could be modified and some people have set to sea in them, seagoing boats are just much more suited to the sea. 

[IanD]

16 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

And you know the “reality” of the cost of a new all electric boat and what it entails for it to work efficiently, unlike most on here. I don’t want to be disrespectful to the OP but when he says he’s hoping more like just over £200K I thought he needs a big reality check. Even making the beam 7’ instead of 6’10” with 20mm base plate adds £thousands and the extra 2” beam will add no major improvements but could add significant problems with locks.

My guess would be at least £400k -- probably more -- given the custom build and high-power electric drive/generator required. Always assuming the OP can find a boatbuilder willing to take this on, I doubt that anyone on the canals has any experience with these power levels... 😉

 

An extra 2" in width is pointless, it's of no consequence internally (an extra 2' would be...) but will restrict where it can go on the UK canals... 😞 

Edited April 24 by IanD

[ditchcrawler]

If I was heading to the broads from the canals I would go the other way and out of the Thames, there are lots of places to hide between there and Yarmouth, you could just go in at Lowestoft. Go out of the Wash and its a long non stop run to Yarmouth unless you run up on the beach somewhere. Here is half the trip TNC On Tour 2003 Thames Estuary (tuesdaynightclub.co.uk) maybe you should read all the site to see what can be done in a standard Narrowboat 

Edited April 24 by ditchcrawler

[Bee]

You wouldn't catch me doing the Amsterdam - Rhine canal in a narrowboat, it's like 'the Bering sea in The Deadliest Catch' on there sometimes. You're gonna need a bigger boat

[IanM]

I have seen a narrow boat up here on the Stour estuary in Essex before.  No idea where it came from or where it went afterwards.