Clicking when trying to start engine

[Tracy D'arth]

As I said earlier, you have a bad connection. It will be on the heavy cables between battery terminals, +  & -  and the starter motor and the earth to the engine. Follow all the cables from the engine battery inspecting every connection on both cables.

Edited April 15 by Tracy D'arth

[Tony Brooks]

Tests to confirm the suggested diagnosis before you go pulling things apart and assuming the engine will turn by hand (spanner)

 

You can extend the voltmeter leads with almost any length of cable if needed.

 

To test for problems with the positive circuit.

Voltmeter between start battery positive and the large terminal on the starter solenoid that runs from the solenoid into the starter body. Expect battery voltage, but ignore it. Operate starter. The meter should read less than 1 volt. The higher the reading, the bigger the resistance in the circuit.

 

If you get more than 1 volt, transfer the connection to the other large solenoid connection and repeat. If you then get less than 1volt, the solenoid contacts are burned.

 

To test for problems with the negative circuit.

Voltmeter between start battery negative and the starter negative terminal, or a clean area on the starter body. Expect zero volts but ignore it. Operate the starter. The meter should read less than 1 volt. The higher the reading, the bigger the resistance in the circuit.

[MtB]

20 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

As I said earlier, you have a bad connection. It will be on the heavy cables between battery terminals, +  & -  and the starter motor and the earth to the engine. Follow all the cables from the engine battery inspecting every connection on both cables.

 

 

Having read the latest update my money is on you and Arthur being jointly right, and the earth strap bolt onto the engine is loose/dirty/heating up.

 

 

[Lizette]

15 hours ago, Paul C said:

 

 

If the above two posts are to be taken as correct, then it points to something wrong with the installation of the starter, and/or a (partly) seized engine. Using the principles of checking what's easiest first, I'd suggest next step is to bar over the engine. (If you can't do this, or you don't know what a "normal" engine should feel like for resistance when its done, there is little value in yourself doing so).

 

The other possibility - incorrect starter installation - has so many variables that its not worth going into them just yet (without sight of the engine it would be a guessing game).

Hi Thanks for responses,I am not sure what "bar" over the engine is?

I gave up yesterday as rain was making it difficult and it was important to have electric on for charging leisure batteries.

I did look through manual and on line to find possible part with issue. I shall continue to look today and attempt to identify any issues.

The starter motor was sitting correctly and the smoke came more from the right of the engine.

15 hours ago, MtB said:

 

 

Having read the latest update my money is on you and Arthur being jointly right, and the earth strap bolt onto the engine is loose/dirty/heating up.

 

 

Ok,thanks all will attempt this today.

15 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

As I said earlier, you have a bad connection. It will be on the heavy cables between battery terminals, +  & -  and the starter motor and the earth to the engine. Follow all the cables from the engine battery inspecting every connection on both cables.

Thanks,will explore

15 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Tests to confirm the suggested diagnosis before you go pulling things apart and assuming the engine will turn by hand (spanner)

 

You can extend the voltmeter leads with almost any length of cable if needed.

 

To test for problems with the positive circuit.

Voltmeter between start battery positive and the large terminal on the starter solenoid that runs from the solenoid into the starter body. Expect battery voltage, but ignore it. Operate starter. The meter should read less than 1 volt. The higher the reading, the bigger the resistance in the circuit.

 

If you get more than 1 volt, transfer the connection to the other large solenoid connection and repeat. If you then get less than 1volt, the solenoid contacts are burned.

 

To test for problems with the negative circuit.

Voltmeter between start battery negative and the starter negative terminal, or a clean area on the starter body. Expect zero volts but ignore it. Operate the starter. The meter should read less than 1 volt. The higher the reading, the bigger the resistance in the circuit.

Eek! I shall give it a go!

16 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Many thanks for the update, and sorry it is not sorted.

 

I seem to recall someone said that you had a Barrus Shire engine, so have been looking at manuals and images. If it is something different, ignore this and let us know exactly what it is.

 

It seems the starter motor has a top mounted solenoid well above the engine bed so that won't smoke from under the engine.

 

The Non Canal boat engine manual suggests that there may be a start relay, but there seems to be no mention of this on the canal boat range. Such a relay should be mounted higher on or beside the engine, so even if you have one it should not be under the engine.

 

If there is something under the engine, it seems unusual.

 

There is likely to be something low down on an engine bed or on a starer mounting bolt, the starter negative terminal (if there is one) or probably a gearbox or flywheel housing mounting stud/bolt and that would be a main negative "earth" connection. This could look as if it may be under the engine and if the smoke is coming from there then Arthur got it right. If that connection is loose, dirty, or the cable strands are loose in the terminal, it would smoke and give you symptoms.

 

I await the next instalment with interest.

 

 

 

Thanks,yes,it barrus shire 35. Lots to explore today then. I shall follow everyone's advice before contacting RCR. It would be nice to resolve without contacting them. Exciting stuff!

[Paul C]

6 hours ago, Lizette said:

Hi Thanks for responses,I am not sure what "bar" over the engine is?

 

it means to turn it over by hand and feel how it resists.

 

6 hours ago, Lizette said:

 

I did look through manual and on line to find possible part with issue. 

That’s good but if you’re guessing at parts and replacing them instead of diagnosing the issue, it will get expensive.

[Tracy D'arth]

Just follow the heavy cables rather than guessing.

[Lizette]

Nothing yet guys- to be honest,I have been stuck with my head in an engine for several days so took a day off. Back to it tomorrow!

[Slim]

Been following without making comment to date. Just a final plea to check ALL the HEAVY, I.e THICK cable connections from battery to engine. JFDI  😁😁

[blackrose]

On 11/04/2024 at 16:18, Tony Brooks said:

1. Clean the terminals' mating surfaces to bright metal, dress with Vaseline, and refit. 

 

Vaseline non-conductive and a good electrical insulator. If you apply it to the terminal surfaces and then refit, most of the vasaline will be squeezed out but there will still be a thin film between the surfaces increasing resistance, which kind of defeats the object of cleaning them in the first place. If you clean the terminals, refit and then apply the vaseline to the assembly to prevent long term corrosion that's better, but if you take it apart again you must make sure that you thoroughly clean all the vasaline off before refitting because the stuff gets everywhere. Personally I don't bother dressing battery terminals because I think it's more trouble than it's worth.

[Tony Brooks]

30 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

Vaseline non-conductive and a good electrical insulator. If you apply it to the terminal surfaces and then refit, most of the vasaline will be squeezed out but there will still be a thin film between the surfaces increasing resistance, which kind of defeats the object of cleaning them in the first place. If you clean the terminals, refit and then apply the vaseline to the assembly to prevent long term corrosion that's better, but if you take it apart again you must make sure that you thoroughly clean all the vasaline off before refitting because the stuff gets everywhere. Personally I don't bother dressing battery terminals because I think it's more trouble than it's worth.

 

Once again, this misinformation rears its head. This was discussed at length not long ago when more than one professional explained how it was used when assembling joints on high current busbars and other applications.

 

Yes Vaseline is an insulator so if the OP and you wish to substitute terminal dressing that looks exactly like red Vaseline or terminal grease (as issued to the UK armed forces) then fine, but they are all insulators in their own right, but that is not their purpose.

 

If no terminal dressing is used then and very slight leak of acid or acid fumes through the post to cell lid seal will penetrate the small gaps between the post and clamp/terminal and create a very hard, black oxide type coating that really is insulating. This works its way across the whole surface and the engine will fail to start, giving machine-gunning and/or other "flat battery" symptoms. Negative terminals are particularly affected by this. If the dressing is cleaned off, all will appear well for a time, but the time period before a problem occurs is likely to be much reduced.

 

Even now with much better post to cell lid sealing one still sees the area around the post, terminal and lead badly corroded with typically white, yellow, or bluish growths. This is normally the result of acid/acid fume leaks, so it can still be a problem.

 

Just because you or I have an idea fixed in our minds does not make it correct, especially when it is contradicted by others with similar training and experience. The OP can take whatever advice she chooses, but dressing the terminals or not will make no difference to solving the problem, it may make the time before the next problem shorter

 

 

 

[Tracy D'arth]

1 hour ago, blackrose said:

 

Vaseline non-conductive and a good electrical insulator. If you apply it to the terminal surfaces and then refit, most of the vasaline will be squeezed out but there will still be a thin film between the surfaces increasing resistance, which kind of defeats the object of cleaning them in the first place. If you clean the terminals, refit and then apply the vaseline to the assembly to prevent long term corrosion that's better, but if you take it apart again you must make sure that you thoroughly clean all the vasaline off before refitting because the stuff gets everywhere. Personally I don't bother dressing battery terminals because I think it's more trouble than it's worth.

Utter claptrap.  A minute coating of Vaseline or No-Crode will not insulate a clean, tightly clamped post and clamp terminal connection.

[blackrose]

2 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Utter claptrap.  A minute coating of Vaseline or No-Crode will not insulate a clean, tightly clamped post and clamp terminal connection.

 

Utter claptrap. I don't know about No Corrode as I don't know about it and hadn't mentioned it, but Vasaline will insulate terminals .

 

Vaseline is mostly petroleum jelly (petrolatum) mixed with some minerals, micro-crystalline wax, and possibly a fragrance - all of which are also non-conductive. Pure petrolatum is an excellent electrical insulator. And, Vaseline (petrolatum with other “impurities”) is a very good insulator.

 

So it's pretty obvious that even a small amount will increase electrical resistance.

 

3 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Once again, this misinformation rears its head. This was discussed at length not long ago when more than one professional explained how it was used when assembling joints on high current busbars and other applications.

 

Yes Vaseline is an insulator so if the OP and you wish to substitute terminal dressing that looks exactly like red Vaseline or terminal grease (as issued to the UK armed forces) then fine, but they are all insulators in their own right, but that is not their purpose.

 

If no terminal dressing is used then and very slight leak of acid or acid fumes through the post to cell lid seal will penetrate the small gaps between the post and clamp/terminal and create a very hard, black oxide type coating that really is insulating. This works its way across the whole surface and the engine will fail to start, giving machine-gunning and/or other "flat battery" symptoms. Negative terminals are particularly affected by this. If the dressing is cleaned off, all will appear well for a time, but the time period before a problem occurs is likely to be much reduced.

 

Even now with much better post to cell lid sealing one still sees the area around the post, terminal and lead badly corroded with typically white, yellow, or bluish growths. This is normally the result of acid/acid fume leaks, so it can still be a problem.

 

Just because you or I have an idea fixed in our minds does not make it correct, especially when it is contradicted by others with similar training and experience. The OP can take whatever advice she chooses, but dressing the terminals or not will make no difference to solving the problem, it may make the time before the next problem shorter

 

 

By the same token that doesn't make you correct either Tony. 

 

I've never dressed terminals and never had a problem. I simply make sure they're clean.

 

Anyway tell me, what exactly is the advantage of dressing the terminals before assembly as you recommend, over dressing the assembled joint as I described? If the assembled joint is properly dressed nothing will get between the mating faces. Your method can only be disadvantageous as far as I can see 

Edited April 18 by blackrose

[Tony Brooks]

6 minutes ago, blackrose said:

Anyway tell me, what exactly is the advantage of dressing the terminals before assembly as you recommend, over dressing the assembled joint as I described? If the assembled joint is properly dressed nothing will get between the mating faces. Your method can only be disadvantageous as far as I can see 

 

So you can get your finger under the clamps to ensure the dressing is fully sealing any gap between the post and terminal, can you. if you can, the clamp has been fitted too high on the post or it is the wrong clamp.

 

9 minutes ago, blackrose said:

By the same token that doesn't make you correct either Tony. 

 

I've never dressed terminals and never had a problem. I simply make sure they're clean.

 

1. Two people (me and Tracy) have told you are incorrect, and both of us have had over 60 years in the motor and marine trade (probably in the case of Tracy). You readily discount ll the training and experience on the basis of "I have not had a problem".  That is not a valid argument against all the lead acids battery installations., it is a sample size of one against probably millions.

 

That last time this came up, you were debunked by others with experience in other industries.

 

You will note that I have talked bout terminal dressing, with Vaseline being just one that is most likely to be available on a boat. I have also said the OP can dress or not dress, but if she does not, then the service life of the connection may well be shorter before more attention is required.

[bizzard]

I'm inclined to agree with Black Rose. On a few occasions during my 50 years in my garage and mobile mechanicing I was called out to cars that wouldn't start after the owner had Vasalene'd the posts and bunged the clamps back on over them.   Trust a Trader.com.

[Sir Nibble]

This is one of "those" things isn't it. Unlike bizzard, I've never seen a problem with it. I must have done thousands and thousands of starting problems over the last 50 years and not one was due to vaseline, dozens due to corrosion. This is like never using emery to clean a comm, you should use glass paper. Tried it once, glass paper just not up to the job, 50 years with emery and no problem. 

[john.k]

I got a callout to a 'starter is clicking and whirring but the motor wont start'..............sure enough ,clicking and whirring.......reason was the starter was hanging loose on the wires ,with a conrod through the block.

[Tracy D'arth]

I used to install 'phone switching centers. The battery makers insisted on every connection on the 48v racks being cleaned and covered totally with the supplied packets of grease, which was actually the same as Holts No-Crode.

And they were thousands of amps @48v !

[Sir Nibble]

10 minutes ago, john.k said:

I got a callout to a 'starter is clicking and whirring but the motor wont start'..............sure enough ,clicking and whirring.......reason was the starter was hanging loose on the wires ,with a conrod through the block.

The absolute best was the customer who's truck wouldn't start.

Does the dash light up when you turn the ignition on?

No, nothing. 

Does the starter make any sound when you try it, clicking or anything?

No, nothing. 

So out I go, turn on, dash lights up. Try the starter and it cranks the engine briskly. 

 Customer: See, nothing. 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

And they were thousands of amps @48v !

 

Maybe that is the answer.

 

Very different to a 'few' amps at 12v

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

So you can get your finger under the clamps to ensure the dressing is fully sealing any gap between the post and terminal, can you. if you can, the clamp has been fitted too high on the post or it is the wrong clamp.

 

 

1. Two people (me and Tracy) have told you are incorrect, and both of us have had over 60 years in the motor and marine trade (probably in the case of Tracy). You readily discount ll the training and experience on the basis of "I have not had a problem".  That is not a valid argument against all the lead acids battery installations., it is a sample size of one against probably millions.

 

That last time this came up, you were debunked by others with experience in other industries.

 

You will note that I have talked bout terminal dressing, with Vaseline being just one that is most likely to be available on a boat. I have also said the OP can dress or not dress, but if she does not, then the service life of the connection may well be shorter before more attention is required.

 

For what it is worth, BT used vaseline to dress battery connections and they were (maybe still are) the biggest user of lead acid batteries in Europe.

Edited April 18 by cuthound
spillung

[bizzard]

I can understant greasing over and around the clamp after it's fitted but not between post and clamp, just can't see the point, just a waste of vasalene or grease.

[jacko264]

Where I use to work  we had about 400 buses and for the psv test the battery’s had to have the poles cleaned with sand paper then the clamps fitted.

after that it was sprayed with a protector  

[bizzard]

2 minutes ago, jacko264 said:

Where I use to work  we had about 400 buses and for the psv test the battery’s had to have the poles cleaned with sand paper then the clamps fitted.

after that it was sprayed with a protector

That's more like it.

[john.k]

The car shops used to sell a battery terminal cleaner that reamed the clamps out  and had a blade that cut back the lead post .........one good go was a new battery and new cables.

[jacko264]

Why would you cut the post that is ridiculous all they need is a clean with sand paper 

unless the post is burnt  away from having a loose clamp then it’s a new battery