Baton Twirlers Stage Protest (again)

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

You are assuming that most of the stealth boats bother applying for a licence ... can't really see them uploading a photo if they're not.

 

Then perhaps it is time for CRT to target unannounced  boat checking in specific area?

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

21 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Then perhaps it is time for CRT to target unannounced  boat checking in specific area?

London would be the place to start. 
 

But I’m meeting folk that have left London  only to discover there IS a world away from being down there and the world elsewhere is more lovely. 

I’m not sure I’m in favour though, perhaps they ought to stay put. 
Will they be able to adapt to Northern ways? 
Or will they promote their continental southern ways?
Are the hipsters on the move?

Will Tipton cope with an influx of yoga and coffee hungry millennials ???

 

 

 

[MtB]

2 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

You are assuming that most of the stealth boats bother applying for a licence ... can't really see them uploading a photo if they're not.

 

Quite.

 

It can be a fair bit of effort to erase all identifying names and numbers from a boat so I've always imagined it is done deliberately. And what would be the point if you are planning to continue buying a licence? 

 

 

[nbfiresprite]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

Quite.

 

It can be a fair bit of effort to erase all identifying names and numbers from a boat so I've always imagined it is done deliberately. And what would be the point if you are planning to continue buying a licence? 

 

 

When a licence is shared between boats, One of the tricks used is swapping the licence displayed with another on a set day, so it looks that a group of boats are moving when they are not. 

 

Displaying a fake or cloned licence (CART need to copy the Middle Level and make the licence hard to fake) and changing it ever so often. 

 

If the boat checker had access to a photo of the licenced boat, The evaders and rule breakers would be easy to spot.

 

It would also bring a end to boat owners who have had their Name and Index number copied and are no longer on CART waters, being chased for non-payment of the licence and having to prove that the boat was not on CART waters at the time and date stated. This can take a few weeks or even months to sort out. 

 

 

Edited April 1 by nbfiresprite

[peterboat]

5 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

It's not only the Bristol end of the K&A that is overun with CMers, it is now Bristol itself ................

 

Bristol becomes van dweller capital of the UK with 800 people living at the side of the street struggling in the cost of living crisis.

 

Bristol has been named the van dweller capital of the UK with 800 people living at the side of street as families continue to struggle with the cost of living crisis. 

There has been a surge of people living in motorhomes, caravans and converted vans in the last year as they battle not only with the economic climate but the nation-wide housing crisis.

 

 

Amongst the new community are David and Daniela Fernandes, who moved to the UK from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.

Mr Fernandes, 51, said: 'It's easy to move from place to place and we don't have to pay rent and all the other things.'

 

 

His daughter Anna, 17, is planning to move from Portugal to study law at the University of Bristol, said she will likely follow suit and live in a van if she's accepted. 'When I work I will have less bills to pay, so it's easy,' she told the Times.

 

 

According to a report by Bristol City Council, the number of vans has quadrupled since 2020, with only 100-150 people living in vans three years ago. 

Bristol has become the most expensive place to rent in the UK outside of London - with the average monthly rent costing £1.734. It came after the pandemic when people left the capital for cheaper and more rural alternatives. 

Residents living near the Downs in the leafy village of Clifton want to see 'tougher enforcement action' on those dwelling in vehicles, according to councillor Steve Smith.

 

And the same complaint as the NBTA have ...................

 

 

In May, van dwellers accused the council of trying to 'criminalise our lifestyle'.

Gareth Jones, 28, a clerical assistant who lives near Clifton Downs told MailOnline: 'It is concerning, not just for the lack of clarity in the wording of it. It is indicative of a drive to criminalise our lifestyle.

'I am generally concerned about an overly intrusive state apparatus and this makes you feel unwelcome. As soon as anyone raises a fuss, there tends to be a clamp down. I am surprised the locals are as okay as they are with us being here.'

 

Full article and pictures here : Bristol becomes van dweller capital of the UK with 800 people living at the side of the street struggling in the cost of living crisis (msn.com)

Its going to end very badly is all I can say Alan. 

[Momac]

12 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

Then perhaps it is time for CRT to target unannounced  boat checking in specific area?

There were some EA guys out with a police officer (CSO type) late summer in a RIB and they were questioning  a fishist in a dinghy . I dare say he had no rod license nor a license for the dinghy.  The EA would not have been interested in the dinghy.

It does show a patrol can catch people without the proper license.

 

C&RT do have 'Rangers' . I believe  they operate from the shore rather than off a boat which is probably  the more efficient method.

Perhaps there should be more rangers.

 

Identifying  the owner of a boat with no name and no index must be a drain on C&RT resources.

Increased license fees presumably don't help as they add to the incentive to evade paying.

 

Not sure what the answer is but its C&RT's problem. 

 

[cheesegas]

There's a weird mindset on here that anyone without a home mooring is a tax dodger and mooring up for two weeks at a time is a big no no and you're only in it for a cheap lifestyle as opposed to being a 'true boater' or whatever that means. I've tried living in a marina as that's what everyone bleats on about when you first mention getting a boat and I hated it. Like being double moored all the time and paying for the privilege, and then having to deal with gossip from neighbours you can't escape.

 

I quite like cruising to a new spot and then stopping for a week or two; some of those days might be commuting to work (my place of work changes almost daily) but most are spent exploring the new area, walking/cycling around to look at stuff which I might not otherwise be able to see and so on.

 

 

On 31/03/2024 at 10:42, MtB said:

Indeed and its a curious thing. When I lived aboard I realised I no longer enjoyed my boating. The boat became just the place I went to cook/eat and sleep. Filling the water tank, emptying the bog and changing gas bottles became a tedious chore. Now I'm living on the bank, going to the boat has become a treat again.

I'm the opposite to this; everyone does things differently. Before living aboard I had a little GRP cruiser in a marina - it started to become a hassle going to the boat, getting it ready to cruise and so on just for a couple of days. 

 

Living on the boat means I can take my entire home to a different place and have a different town to look around etc without having to think about getting the boat back to the marina and then getting home. I don't have a fixed place of work to commute to - as I'm freelance, it changes a lot and I do some from home too.

 

On 31/03/2024 at 06:42, magpie patrick said:

To my mind, living on board holds one's cruising aspirations back. 

Again...everyone is different and again I'm the opposite. Living on board for me means that I look forward to cruising, where I'll find somewhere new to live for a week or two and explore the area. I was briefly in a marina and because I was paying to be there, I felt I had to return there which limited where I cruised; plus, with shore power, the incentive to set the boat up for multiple days off grid wasn't there so if I moored up for a few days it was a hassle to keep batteries charged etc.

[Alan de Enfield]

9 minutes ago, cheesegas said:

There's a weird mindset on here that anyone without a home mooring is a tax dodger and mooring up for two weeks at a time is a big no no

 

I think that there is a general 'dislike' of CMers who moor up and rarely move, and then probably only for water, and then return to the same mooring spot & claim the towpath as their personal scrapyard / storage area.

They don't appear to be 'in it' for the pleasure of boating, maybe they have finacial constraints (like those caravanners in Bristol) and are just happy to find somewhere to live with no rent or council tax etc.

 

Boaters who 'continuously cruise' (impossible to comply with that statement) and abide by the rules are not frowned upon, and in many cases are looked at with jealousy because they are able to do something that many folks of working age cannot do. 

 

Unfortunately, as always, it is the few that make difficulties for the many and then all can get tarred with the same brush

 

All power to you !

[MtB]

23 minutes ago, cheesegas said:

I'm the opposite to this; everyone does things differently. Before living aboard I had a little GRP cruiser in a marina - it started to become a hassle going to the boat, getting it ready to cruise and so on just for a couple of days. 

 

Living on the boat means I can take my entire home to a different place and have a different town to look around etc without having to think about getting the boat back to the marina and then getting home. I don't have a fixed place of work to commute to - as I'm freelance, it changes a lot and I do some from home too.

 

Like you, I loathe marinas.  They are like living in a car park. 

 

Initially I was living aboard and compliantly CCing, then I took a pretty countryside CRT on-line mooring. But holding down a busy self-employment (which pays for my boats!) at the same time led to it turning into a chore as I only ever took the boat to the water and elsan point every couple of weeks. Getting away from managing the boat became the pleasure!

 

But each of the boats is still a home-from-home. Galley cupboards stocked with food, clothes etc and various personal possessions on board too, fuel in the tanks, lithiums part-charged, I just go to the boat when it suits me and its ready to go. 

 

 

 

 

[IanD]

26 minutes ago, cheesegas said:

There's a weird mindset on here that anyone without a home mooring is a tax dodger and mooring up for two weeks at a time is a big no no and you're only in it for a cheap lifestyle as opposed to being a 'true boater' or whatever that means. I've tried living in a marina as that's what everyone bleats on about when you first mention getting a boat and I hated it. Like being double moored all the time and paying for the privilege, and then having to deal with gossip from neighbours you can't escape.

 

I quite like cruising to a new spot and then stopping for a week or two; some of those days might be commuting to work (my place of work changes almost daily) but most are spent exploring the new area, walking/cycling around to look at stuff which I might not otherwise be able to see and so on.

 

 

I'm the opposite to this; everyone does things differently. Before living aboard I had a little GRP cruiser in a marina - it started to become a hassle going to the boat, getting it ready to cruise and so on just for a couple of days. 

 

Living on the boat means I can take my entire home to a different place and have a different town to look around etc without having to think about getting the boat back to the marina and then getting home. I don't have a fixed place of work to commute to - as I'm freelance, it changes a lot and I do some from home too.

 

Again...everyone is different and again I'm the opposite. Living on board for me means that I look forward to cruising, where I'll find somewhere new to live for a week or two and explore the area. I was briefly in a marina and because I was paying to be there, I felt I had to return there which limited where I cruised; plus, with shore power, the incentive to set the boat up for multiple days off grid wasn't there so if I moored up for a few days it was a hassle to keep batteries charged etc.

 

Doing what you do -- following the CC rule and staying in one place for a few days days and then moving on and continuing to do so around the system -- is exactly the situation for which the CC rule was introduced in the first place, and I very much doubt that anybody on CWDF objects to that, it's just as valid a way of using the canals as having a home mooring. In fact you could say it's a better use of the canals than boats which spend almost all their time as liveaboards not moving around (or holiday boats moored in marinas), but that's another argument... 😉 

 

While only a relatively small number of boaters did this -- and mainly followed the rules -- there was no problem. The problem is that in recent years increasing numbers of boaters who don't want to move round the system (or pay for a home mooring) claim the CC exemption but then do their best to stay in one place and scream loudly (hello NBTA!) when there's any attempt to make them follow the rules and move on.

 

I'm sure that discouraging this behaviour is part of the reason for CART introducing the CC surcharge (again, to loud protests from the NBTA), though many would say the (rising to 25%) surcharge isn't really big enough to do this and it should be bigger. It's also this behaviour that is p*ssing off lots of other boaters who do either follow the rules or pay for a home mooring, but see others overstaying massively and getting pretty much what they're paying for but for free... 😞 

 

Unfortunately "real CCers" like you are collateral damage here, you're suffering due to the behaviours of others, and I expect this is especially galling for those who have been CCing for many years since before this all became such a problem. But you shouldn't be blaming CART or boaters complaining about bad CC behaviour, you should be blaming the CMers who are the real culprits.

[peterboat]

14 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Doing what you do -- following the CC rule and staying in one place for a few days days and then moving on and continuing to do so around the system -- is exactly the situation for which the CC rule was introduced in the first place, and I very much doubt that anybody on CWDF objects to that, it's just as valid a way of using the canals as having a home mooring. In fact you could say it's a better use of the canals than boats which spend almost all their time as liveaboards not moving around (or holiday boats moored in marinas), but that's another argument... 😉 

 

While only a relatively small number of boaters did this -- and mainly followed the rules -- there was no problem. The problem is that in recent years increasing numbers of boaters who don't want to move round the system (or pay for a home mooring) claim the CC exemption but then do their best to stay in one place and scream loudly (hello NBTA!) when there's any attempt to make them follow the rules and move on.

 

I'm sure that discouraging this behaviour is part of the reason for CART introducing the CC surcharge (again, to loud protests from the NBTA), though many would say the (rising to 25%) surcharge isn't really big enough to do this and it should be bigger. It's also this behaviour that is p*ssing off lots of other boaters who do either follow the rules or pay for a home mooring, but see others overstaying massively and getting pretty much what they're paying for but for free... 😞 

 

Unfortunately "real CCers" like you are collateral damage here, you're suffering due to the behaviours of others, and I expect this is especially galling for those who have been CCing for many years since before this all became such a problem. But you shouldn't be blaming CART or boaters complaining about bad CC behaviour, you should be blaming the CMers who are the real culprits.

I am a London boaters forum and they are deeply unhappy at what is happening in the most. Honestly some on there are scary in their beliefs, they think knocking in mooring pins and dislodging coping stones is ok! When one their own pulls them up they hang up rapidly to attack them as if its their right to damage property to enable their cheap lifestyle 

[cheesegas]

10 minutes ago, IanD said:

Doing what you do -- following the CC rule and staying in one place for a few days days and then moving on and continuing to do so around the system -- is exactly the situation for which the CC rule was introduced in the first place, and I very much doubt that anybody on CWDF objects to that, it's just as valid a way of using the canals as having a home mooring. In fact you could say it's a better use of the canals than boats which spend almost all their time as liveaboards not moving around (or holiday boats moored in marinas), but that's another argument... 😉 

 

While only a relatively small number of boaters did this -- and mainly followed the rules -- there was no problem. The problem is that in recent years increasing numbers of boaters who don't want to move round the system (or pay for a home mooring) claim the CC exemption but then do their best to stay in one place and scream loudly (hello NBTA!) when there's any attempt to make them follow the rules and move on.

 

I'm sure that discouraging this behaviour is part of the reason for CART introducing the CC surcharge (again, to loud protests from the NBTA), though many would say the (rising to 25%) surcharge isn't really big enough to do this and it should be bigger. It's also this behaviour that is p*ssing off lots of other boaters who do either follow the rules or pay for a home mooring, but see others overstaying massively and getting pretty much what they're paying for but for free... 😞 

 

Unfortunately "real CCers" like you are collateral damage here, you're suffering due to the behaviours of others, and I expect this is especially galling for those who have been CCing for many years since before this all became such a problem. But you shouldn't be blaming CART or boaters complaining about bad CC behaviour, you should be blaming the CMers who are the real culprits.

Totally - I agree that there’s a lot of people who just hover around the same area simply because it’s cheap, and don’t let anyone else have that spot. However, it’s not just scruffy boats who do that, plenty of new widebeams are at it as well for example! Walthamstow Marshes in London is notorious for that behaviour. I also echo your thoughts on the NBTA, I’ve joined their zoom meetings out of interest and it’s like a student politics club, only more angsty and with less direction and meaning. 

 

I’ve got a lot of snootiness from shiny boaters over the past couple of years when I chat to them at locks etc and mention I don’t have a home mooring. ‘You’re one of them’…‘trying to avoid tax eh’ and so on. I did some of the Oxford loop last summer and it seemed especially bad - my boat is a little scruffy and could do with a repaint at some point as it’s fading, and I have a tarp on the roof covering the inevitable two bags of coal I didn’t use over winter! Unmistakably liveaboard, along with the solar panels. 

[Alan de Enfield]

16 minutes ago, cheesegas said:

I also echo your thoughts on the NBTA,

 

I think the NBTA have probably done more to alienate CCers than any other organisation (even C&RT) could have done.

Their support of Non-CCers really has divided the boating community.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

2 hours ago, cheesegas said:

a weird mindset on here that anyone without a home mooring is a tax dodger and mooring up for two weeks at a time is a big no no and you're only in it for a cheap lifestyle

right, so I’m not alone thinking that then,

 

59 minutes ago, cheesegas said:

I also echo your thoughts on the NBTA, I’ve joined their zoom meetings out of interest and it’s like a student politics club, only more angsty and with less direction and meaning. 

I’ve imagined the meetings it to be exactly like that,

 Angry ranting,

1 hour ago, cheesegas said:

Totally - I agree that there’s a lot of people who just hover around the same area simply because it’s cheap, and don’t let anyone else have that spot. However, it’s not just scruffy boats who do that, plenty of new widebeams are at it as well 

there are plenty of boaters across ALL types who do it,

 

 

 

 

 

[cheesegas]

8 minutes ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

I’ve imagined the meetings it to be exactly like that

It’s less angry ranting and more them trying to stop whatever the CRT is doing without rhyme or reason. Like disrupting the CRTs fundraising activities. Also hilariously they assign tasks to their own key members who simply don’t do them. 
 

There’s definitely space for a reasonable organisation with some rational direction to support and manage liveaboard boaters in busy areas like London/Bristol. Running campaigns to encourage people to spread out along transport routes around the system, organise towpath litter picks, 

[Momac]

1 hour ago, cheesegas said:

I’ve got a lot of snootiness from shiny boaters over the past couple of years when I chat to them at locks etc and mention I don’t have a home mooring. ‘You’re one of them’…‘trying to avoid tax eh’ and so on. I did some of the Oxford loop last summer and it seemed especially bad - my boat is a little scruffy and could do with a repaint at some point as it’s fading, and I have a tarp on the roof covering the inevitable two bags of coal I didn’t use over winter! Unmistakably liveaboard, along with the solar panels. 

 

Not sure why this is but there is a thing that some people think they have the best boat there is and anything else is inferior in one way or another.

It's not confined to the canals. I know one couple  who are particularly bad for this sort of thing.

 

To be honest I have no problem with and don't blame people if they do wish to live aboard and continuously cruise and not pay council tax. I don't think anyone really should be complaining about that as long as the continuous cruising  is exactly what it should be. going back and forth on the same bit of canal isn't continuously cruising.

 

By the way not everyone pays council tax even if they do live in a house. eg older folk live with their adult children , anyone generally under the age of 18 and even folks like my next door neighbours sons who are in their 30's and still living with their parents.  

 

 

 

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Momac said:

 

Not sure why this is but there is a thing that some people think they have the best boat there is and anything else is inferior in one way or another.

It's not confined to the canals. I know one couple  who are particularly bad for this sort of thing.

 

To be honest I have no problem with and don't blame people if they do wish to live aboard and continuously cruise and not pay council tax. I don't think anyone really should be complaining about that as long as the continuous cruising  is exactly what it should be. going back and forth on the same bit of canal isn't continuously cruising.

 

By the way not everyone pays council tax even if they do live in a house. eg older folk live with their adult children , anyone generally under the age of 18 and even folks like my next door neighbours sons who are in their 30's and still living with their parents.  

 

 

Just like people who dress in smart suits, I've found some shiny boaters to be very unpleasant people, especially to anyone they see as inferior (e.g. hire boaters!) -- and many scruffy boaters to be very nice people. Never judge anyone by their appearance (or accent), you're as likely to be wrong as right -- maybe more so... 😉 

Edited April 2 by IanD

[LadyG]

I had to laugh this a.m., I wanted to get in to the waterpoint, and there was a rather comic, home made tiny boat moored on it, so rather than risk bashing my boat, on the lock approach wall,  or crushing his tiny home I applied a toot blast toot on the horn, right alongside him  . Out he popped and kindly took my centreline!

I might have made a comment about this being the services mooring, but he insisted he could stay for one hour , indicating the notice. He thought about it, then moved over to the Lock Landing on the other side, lol. I hope he likes his little boat, but I do hope he doesnt go on the river with it.

[matty40s]

8 hours ago, IanD said:

 

But you shouldn't be blaming CART or boaters complaining about bad CC behaviour, you should be blaming the CMers who are the real culprits.

Actually, CRT have more than a small part of blame in this.

In about 2013/14 CRT announced that it was going to contact all brokerages and issuing a 'Welcome Pack' to be given out with each boat sale. This would explain the licensing,  BSS, relevant terms and conditions, bylaws and a mini Good Boaters guide. It was also going to warn of insufficient movement of Boaters Without a Home Mooring resulting in shortened licences (6month, 3 month, and then refusal of licence).

This never happened, wasnt followed up, so people can just buy a boat and chug off without actually knowing anything at all, and this has become more and more apparent in the last couple of years.

So, yes, CRT ARE blame-able.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, matty40s said:

................so people can just buy a boat and chug off without actually knowing anything at all,

 

Someone can just roll up at a secondhand car lot, respond to an advert on Gumtree etc. hand over some cash, buy a car, and just drive away without actually knowing anything at all.

 

Surely even the Gen Z have enough about them do do some investigation into what is required before handing over big chunks of money.

 

Have we really become such a pathetic society that everything has to be done for them and they have no responsibility for their actions (or lack of) ?

 

 

[matty40s]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Someone can just roll up at a secondhand car lot, respond to an advert on Gumtree etc. hand over some cash, buy a car, and just drive away without actually knowing anything at all.

 

Surely even the Gen Z have enough about them do do some investigation into what is required before handing over big chunks of money.

 

Have we really become such a pathetic society that everything has to be done for them and they have no responsibility for their actions (or lack of) ?

 

 

I dont know why you are blaming GenZ, the people buying with no clue are all ages.

[ditchcrawler]

9 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Someone can just roll up at a secondhand car lot, respond to an advert on Gumtree etc. hand over some cash, buy a car, and just drive away without actually knowing anything at all.

 

Surely even the Gen Z have enough about them do do some investigation into what is required before handing over big chunks of money.

 

Have we really become such a pathetic society that everything has to be done for them and they have no responsibility for their actions (or lack of) ?

 

 

You should see some Facebook posts

[Paul C]

CRT should be consistent in their enforcement, and it would also be a good disincentive that they're SEEN to enforce too. While the 1995 legislation itself is okay, there's peripheral areas of law (such as, a higher penalty for the non-display of boat name/index/licence, for example) which would help them greatly. At the moment its cat and mouse with a very sophisticated mouse population vs an underfunded, lackadaisical cat.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

You should see some Facebook posts

 

I don't think I should - the business news headlines from the IOD and Senior Business managers cite horrific stories about employing GenZ and the 'entitled generation'.

[Ewan123]

On 31/03/2024 at 06:42, magpie patrick said:

To my mind, living on board holds one's cruising aspirations back. 

 

Without living on board, our cruising aspirations would be worthless as we couldn't afford to own a boat as a luxury. Not only that, but by living on our boat, we just move our home where we like. Our aspirations have taken us from the south-eastern end of the network and we'll soon reach the furthest northwestern. Living on board has not only not limited our aspirations, it's actually made them achievable.

Edited April 2 by Ewan123
Typos