Radiators not heating up, boat filled with smoke, batteries not charging

[newbienarrowboatowner]

Hello!

 

My partner and I are new to the narrowboat world, and have had an absolute delight of a morning.

 

Firstly, it proved very difficult to get the diesel stove going last night, and ultimately didn't manage it. This morning, we did manage to light it but none of the radiators are heating up at all.

 

Our batteries also went down, so we turned on the engine to charge them, and after an hour the smoke detectors started going crazy. The boat is now full of smoke, but is thankfully abating with all the doors and windows open. We've turned off the stove and the engine.

 

Have we missed a switch somewhere, or something along those lines? We've had no problem with the radiators in the last few days, or with the battery levels/charging. 

 

Any advice is very much appreciated.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

What make/model of diesel stove is it? If it uses electricity to drive fans, then the batteries being down can affect it.

What battery charging regime are you using? How often and how long are you charging the batteries each day.

What sort of smoke are you smelling? Is it a burning plastic type smell? Some other sort?

Welcome to the forum by the way.

[newbienarrowboatowner]

2 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

What make/model of diesel stove is it? If it uses electricity to drive fans, then the batteries being down can affect it.

What battery charging regime are you using? How often and how long are you charging the batteries each day.

What sort of smoke are you smelling? Is it a burning plastic type smell? Some other sort?

Welcome to the forum by the way.

Hello, thanks for the welcome! I wish it was under less stressful circumstances 😅

 

It's a corner Bubble diesel stove, and the batteries do still have some charge, they just aren't charging when the engine is on.

 

We've been charging them through running the engine for around 2-4 hours a day, plus we have a solar panel.

 

I can't really smell the smoke, I can just see it throughout the boat.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

26 minutes ago, newbienarrowboatowner said:

the batteries do still have some charge, they just aren't charging when the engine is on.

 

We've been charging them through running the engine for around 2-4 hours a day, plus we have a solar panel.

How do you know they have some charge? How are you measuring this?

Have you read the battery charging primer?

 

[mrsmelly]

Bin the crappy stove, fit a proper multi fuel stove, huge improvement all round.

[newbienarrowboatowner]

3 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

How do you know they have some charge? How are you measuring this?

Have you read the battery charging primer?

We were told to read the charge here, it usually goes up to around 12.6V:

 

(Sorry for our ignorance, it's a steep learning curve!)

 

[David Mack]

I believe the bubble stove uses a gravity feed pot burner (like Refleks stoves) and so doesn't need any electric supply. But if you have radiators running from a back boiler you may have an electric circulation pump. Running the stove for an extended period without the pump running could lead to the water boiling which would be a bad idea, but you should be able to light it and run it for a short period to establish it is working.

Batteries not charging is a separate issue, and could be down to a fault somewhere or just knackered batteries due to persistent undercharging.

The smoke in the cabin - did that come from the stove, the engine, the batteries or somewhere else?

[newbienarrowboatowner]

10 minutes ago, David Mack said:

I believe the bubble stove uses a gravity feed pot burner (like Refleks stoves) and so doesn't need any electric supply. But if you have radiators running from a back boiler you may have an electric circulation pump. Running the stove for an extended period without the pump running could lead to the water boiling which would be a bad idea, but you should be able to light it and run it for a short period to establish it is working.

Batteries not charging is a separate issue, and could be down to a fault somewhere or just knackered batteries due to persistent undercharging.

The smoke in the cabin - did that come from the stove, the engine, the batteries or somewhere else?

We do have an auxiliary pump, which should circulate the heat for the radiators. It's been turned on, but isn't making any noise when we switch it on.

 

I'm pretty sure the smoke was coming from the stove.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

15 minutes ago, newbienarrowboatowner said:

We do have an auxiliary pump, which should circulate the heat for the radiators. It's been turned on, but isn't making any noise when we switch it on.

This and that the voltage indicated looks to be at, or below 12V suggests that the batteries are flat. That either could be down to undercharging over weeks, leading to the batteries losing capacity, or possible the engine alternator not charging. What does the voltmeter say when the engine is on? Flat batteries can often still light LED lamps, but any pumps won't turn, or only with great reluctance.

The panel voltmeter is no more than an indication. Not capable of measuring voltage with the degree of precision really needed. Not able to measure tail current, which you need to ensure the batteries are fully charged. There are various options, but first things first on the question above.

[Alan de Enfield]

33 minutes ago, newbienarrowboatowner said:

We were told to read the charge here, it usually goes up to around 12.6V:

 

12.6 volts is nowhere near fully charged, and (apart from the fact you cannot even read 12.6 on that gauge - it could be 12.3, 12.4, 12,5) it could be anywhere between about 70% to 90% State of Charge.

By not fully charging every time you are slowly killing your battery capacity.

You need to be charging at around 14.4 - 14.6 volts

 

Your domestic batteries are showing about 11.5 volts (dependng on which side of the needle you use) and that is a 'dead' battery.

 

 

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[jonathanA]

start with the basics as Jen is suggesting.  it seems like you have no problem starting the engine which could mean you have a twin alternator set up, one charging the engine start battery and a domestic one charging the domestic batteries. Any warning lights on when the engine is running ?  can you see the alternator(s) and are the belts driving it/them in good condition? 

 

your currently showing the domestic battery at less than 12volts, what is the start battery reading and what are these readings with the engine running ?

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

36 minutes ago, newbienarrowboatowner said:

We were told to read the charge here, it usually goes up to around 12.6V:

 

(Sorry for our ignorance, it's a steep learning curve!)

 

 

Yes, you can get a very rough idea of the charging or battery voltage on that toy gauge. It is not accurate enough to imply state of charge. At least half an hour after all charging stops, including solar, will allow you to imply the state of charge (as per the batter primer), but not by that meter. If it was an accurate digital meter, then 12.6V would indicate a well charged, but not fully charged battery. I fear that may be the solar voltage, not the artery voltage, very soon after the charging has stopped.

 

I fear the 12.6V is the engine battery voltage, not the domestic bank. This to put a digital voltmeter on the domestic bank.

 

When the engine is running a 1200 to 1500 rpm (for most engines) you should get a bit over 13 volts at first and gradually rising over the several hours to something in excess or 14.2 volts, could end up as around 14.4. to 14.5V. On the face of it the alternator of batteries is faulty because with very flat batteries or batteries with internal short circuits the high charging current will pull the charging voltage down to, perhaps, sub 13V.

 

If you can give us a rough idea of your location, you might be lucky enough to get a more knowledgable member to have a look at the boat with you. If you are with about 30 miles of reading and outside the London low emission zone I would happily come.

 

I can't help with the stove problem but I do know that sometimes they can cause problems. make sure the flue is not blocked.

 

Do you have a digital voltage (multi-meter) so you can see if there is voltage at the circulating pump? If you have then a sharp  whack with a bit of wood on the PUMP not the motor, with it turned on, may get it spinning.

 

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Tony Brooks

[rusty69]

37 minutes ago, newbienarrowboatowner said:

We do have an auxiliary pump, which should circulate the heat for the radiators. It's been turned on, but isn't making any noise when we switch it on.

 

I'm pretty sure the smoke was coming from the stove.

If its a pump is DC and it went off prior to you starting the engine and charging the batteries, check a fuse for the pump hasn't gone.

 

If it is AC, and running from the inverter. Check the inverter is still supplying power.

Edited November 29, 2023 by rusty69

[PCSB]

1 hour ago, newbienarrowboatowner said:

...

 

I can't really smell the smoke, I can just see it throughout the boat.

Are you sure its smoke and not steam? Diesel smoke stinks.

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, PCSB said:

Are you sure its smoke and not steam? Diesel smoke stinks.

 

And that would make sense if it is boiling because the pump is not running. Steam from the open header tank/vent pipe.

 

PS, I agree diesel smoke stinks and so does vaporized but unburned diesel.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Tony Brooks

[newbienarrowboatowner]

Thanks everyone! We actually only moved onto the boat at the weekend, with very limited experience on narrowboats prior to this.

 

Definitely looks like there might be an issue with the battery unfortunately from the looks of things, and yes I definitely confused smoke and steam (I'm blaming limited sleep after a very cold night ).

 

Looks like we may be looking at getting an electrician to come and have a look at our system and see if we need new batteries. We have however learned a lot just from this thread, so thank you so much everyone!

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, newbienarrowboatowner said:

Thanks everyone! We actually only moved onto the boat at the weekend, with very limited experience on narrowboats prior to this.

 

Definitely looks like there might be an issue with the battery unfortunately from the looks of things, and yes I definitely confused smoke and steam (I'm blaming limited sleep after a very cold night ).

 

Looks like we may be looking at getting an electrician to come and have a look at our system and see if we need new batteries. We have however learned a lot just from this thread, so thank you so much everyone!

 

Please be careful. You don't want any old electrician, you need one who knows about inland boats and has a good reputation. House & factory electricians often make expensive mistakes on boats, and car electricians have been known to. Again, tell us your rough locations, so members can give you recommendations.

 

Do not tell him/she that you what your batteries checked in case that is all he does, make sure that he/she checks the charging system, and that may involve two alternators, not one like a car.

[Mike Tee]

Depending on your setup if there is insufficient head on the diesel tank there may be a 12 volt inline pump supplying the diesel stove. Can’t remember what they are called but it just pulses occasionally and uses very little power - I think they were used on old cars, somebody will be along who knows of these. If this is defective or blocked, insufficient fuel will be getting through causing difficulties with lighting plus not enough diesel getting through to burn properly which will cause smoke. As you move around the boat this could cause enough ‘wobble’ to allow small amounts of diesel through.

I love our diesel stove and when it is working right its great. But when it goes wrong it can be difficult to identify the problem. If you want a quick efficient fix, get the Lockgate engineer to come and service it.

[ditchcrawler]

11 minutes ago, newbienarrowboatowner said:

Thanks everyone! We actually only moved onto the boat at the weekend, with very limited experience on narrowboats prior to this.

 

Definitely looks like there might be an issue with the battery unfortunately from the looks of things, and yes I definitely confused smoke and steam (I'm blaming limited sleep after a very cold night ).

 

Looks like we may be looking at getting an electrician to come and have a look at our system and see if we need new batteries. We have however learned a lot just from this thread, so thank you so much everyone!

Have you actually checked that the belts on the engine are turning the alternator and as tony said do you have any warning light on the engine panel when you run the engine . You probably have an oil light that comes on before the engine runs and you may have 2 battery/alternator lights that come on before the engine starts but all go off once the engine is running.

Edited November 29, 2023 by ditchcrawler

[newbienarrowboatowner]

14 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Have you actually checked that the belts on the engine are turning the alternator and as tony said do you have any warning light on the engine panel when you run the engine . You probably have an oil light that comes on before the engine runs and you may have 2 battery/alternator lights that come on before the engine starts but all go off once the engine is running.

Apologies, yes the belts on the engine are turning the alternator, and there are no warning lights lit on whilst the engine's running. Just the green one to say it's charging.

[ditchcrawler]

Just now, newbienarrowboatowner said:

Apologies, yes the belts on the engine are turning the alternator, and there are no warning lights lit on whilst the engine's running. Just the green one to say it's charging.

Is that green one on before you start the engine?

[Tony Brooks]

3 minutes ago, newbienarrowboatowner said:

Apologies, yes the belts on the engine are turning the alternator, and there are no warning lights lit on whilst the engine's running. Just the green one to say it's charging.

Almost certainly that is wrong. The charge warning lamp should come on when you turn the ignition on and then go out when the engine has started and you have given it a bit of a rev. That will be the case for about 98% of boats. I would suggest that it says one alternator is indeed not charging. When running properly, ALL warning lamps should be out.

[jonathanA]

this assumes of course that he boat is wired up as most (but not all) are and that the 'green light' is on the engine control panel and not on a charger or inverter or some other equipment.

 

might be helpful to confirm the engine details and/or post a pic of the engine and control panel (where the green light is) so that relevant advice can be given. 

 

if the voltage when the volt meter is switched to 'domestic' (as per your picture) and the engine is running, does not change then as Tony and others are suggesting it would point to a problem with that alternator or its wiring.  

 

 

[MtB]

4 hours ago, newbienarrowboatowner said:

I can't really smell the smoke, I can just see it throughout the boat.

 

Have you lit your oven to get a bit of heat? 

 

If so, new ovens (or unused ovens) usually burn off a bit of manufacturing oil when first used which fills the room with a light haze, often smelling of nothing at all. 

 

 

[newbienarrowboatowner]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Please be careful. You don't want any old electrician, you need one who knows about inland boats and has a good reputation. House & factory electricians often make expensive mistakes on boats, and car electricians have been known to. Again, tell us your rough locations, so members can give you recommendations.

 

Do not tell him/she that you what your batteries checked in case that is all he does, make sure that he/she checks the charging system, and that may involve two alternators, not one like a car.

Thank you for this! We're going to try and find one around Long Buckby, which is where we're currently close to.

 

If anyone has any recommendations, we'd be very grateful.

19 minutes ago, jonathanA said:

this assumes of course that he boat is wired up as most (but not all) are and that the 'green light' is on the engine control panel and not on a charger or inverter or some other equipment.

 

might be helpful to confirm the engine details and/or post a pic of the engine and control panel (where the green light is) so that relevant advice can be given. 

 

if the voltage when the volt meter is switched to 'domestic' (as per your picture) and the engine is running, does not change then as Tony and others are suggesting it would point to a problem with that alternator or its wiring.  

 

 

This is where the green light is, with all of the engine controls. It has a small lightning bolt underneath it, and we were told that when that's green, the batteries are charging. Apologies for our ignorance with this, if that's not the case!

 

When the volt meter is switched to 'domestic' and the engine is running, the number is now around 14V.