Re-boarding: washing line between the rubbing strakes?

[Wanderer Vagabond]

58 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

An example of something that meets the letter of the the law but not the spirit -- ticks the "safety feature" box but is mostly useless in real life. Not just impossible to get a foot up that high in deeper water -- and if you're in shallow water you don't need it, just stand up! -- but even if you're a contortionist and can, there's nothing to grab on to above it to try and pull yourself out, especially where they're often positioned.

 

At least on my boat you have one usable footstep a couple of inches deep at the bottom of the Schilling rudder at skeg level, another one at the top, and you can grab on to the tiller or stern bollards to help you get out. I haven't tried it in the water (yet...) but it worked fine when I tried it in the workshop... 😉

 

 

I seem to recall after I had intentionally gone swimming in The Ouse at Ely back in 2020 (all swimming pools were shut) I managed to climb out at the stern by stepping onto the skeg which then enabled me to step up onto the top of the rudder and thence onto the rear fender to get out of the water. This wasn't wearing waterlogged winter clothing though, and it was in the height of summer. Things might be trickier if you've fallen though the ice in December though

[Ewan123]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

As you probably know you do not climb a rope ladder in the same was as you do a 'hard ladder'.

You climb a rope ladder from the side with one leg 'in front' of the ladder and one leg 'behind the ladder' as that way they do not move away from you and go under the boat.

 

 

I do, though I think pretending it's a normal ladder with it braced against the boat hull is actually easier for the very short length of climb/getting from the ladder onto the boat in this scenario. The boat gets in the way a bit for the other method when the ladders not suspended in space.

 

2 hours ago, IanD said:

 

An example of something that meets the letter of the the law but not the spirit -- ticks the "safety feature" box but is mostly useless in real life. Not just impossible to get a foot up that high in deeper water -- and if you're in shallow water you don't need it, just stand up! -- but even if you're a contortionist and can, there's nothing to grab on to above it to try and pull yourself out, especially where they're often positioned.

 

At least on my boat you have one usable footstep a couple of inches deep at the bottom of the Schilling rudder at skeg level, another one at the top, and you can grab on to the tiller or stern bollards to help you get out. I haven't tried it in the water (yet...) but it worked fine when I tried it in the workshop... 😉

 

 

 

While the rudder can be of some use, it can do almost the same thing as the unsupported rope ladder and swing away from you when you try to stand on them, especially if you're in a bit of a fluster (in my experience).

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, Ewan123 said:

I do, though I think pretending it's a normal ladder with it braced against the boat hull is actually easier for the very short length of climb/getting from the ladder onto the boat in this scenario. The boat gets in the way a bit for the other method when the ladders not suspended in space.

 

If the boat is in 4 or 5 feet of water (or more if on rivers) then trying to climb a rope ladder as a conventional ladder just results in your legs disappearing under the boat., as the ladder will just push away from you around the bottom of the boat. You can end up climbing almost upside down

And then we have @rusty69 doing it properly :

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[wakey_wake]

1 hour ago, Ewan123 said:

So long as it sits snug below the widest part of the boat, I don't think it would snag in a lock (which would be my main concern). It could possibly get snagged on awkward branches that you pass... not sure though.

 

I think I would have appreciated such a thing when I fell in last winter. [..]

 

Thanks for addressing the original bit of the question 😉 I'll take one 👍

Trailing branches... if they didn't break before the washing line... would they be strong enough to break the washing line? That sounds like a freak accident kind of situation.

 

 

1 hour ago, Ewan123 said:

As for getting out of the water, I suppose I'm fortunate that I'm fit enough that I'm strong/light enough to just haul my carcass out by grabbing the tiller stem. That won't be the case forever though.

 

Yep, we degrade slowly. Fitting something to my boat that is still useful for weaker people is not entirely altruistic.

 

 

1 hour ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

For the elderly lady I fished out, it wouldn't have mattered what bells and whistles the boat had for someone in the water to rescue themselves, for her is simply wouldn't have happened. Her level of panic was such that I couldn't even get her to try to put her feet down to see if she could stand up in the water (she may well have been able to for all I know). She was only ever going to be rescued from the water by someone else.

 

Right. I can imagine how useful it would have been to whip out a nice wide comfortable sling seat with a loop at the top, and a pair of shearlegs with a block & tackle.

 

I might one day go as far as shearlegs to move heavy stuff through my side hatch. It would need some extra loops welding on in strategic places.

I wasn't thinking to keep that as standard cruising kit and I've no idea what I would have done to help a person in such a state.  😟

 

Maybe a gangplank with one end sunk would have given her the clue and let her walk/crawl up it?

 

I've seen vids of salty boat kit for raising an unconscious MOB the couple of metres necessary. It's kind of specialised and needs crew above, with training. Hmm can't find that one now.

 

Minimal kit, lots of muscle (scary) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I4WFaikXqs

LifeSling, for boats with a built in crane https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_GlkMCBVYk

Lots of kit, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrjdiJnm8D4

[David Mack]

3 hours ago, IanD said:

 

Steps top and bottom of the rudder is better than just a projecting semicircle of counter plate, but even so I imagine many people might struggle to get from the top 'step' onto the deck.

[wakey_wake]

3 hours ago, IanD said:

I'm sure most experienced rope ladder climbers like you are perfectly well aware of this 🙂

 

Unfortunately 99% of the public are not, they inevitably try to climb with both feet in front and it swings away from them (under the boat, in this case) as described above... 😞

 

99% includes me, and I doubt I would've had the presence of mind to work it out if I was unexpectedly wet.

The eye-catching yellow cover needs a cartoon on it, to show what to do.

 

 

3 hours ago, IanD said:

... Schilling rudder ...

 

Very neat. What's the red peg for, on the top of the rudder? 

 

 

3 hours ago, IanD said:

I suspect that in a real emergency with normal -- possibly older and less nimble -- people, those steps are pretty much useless [...]

 

Worst case, someone in a wheelchair goes in. The chair is lost, but then what'cha gonna do?

Maybe worse than an unconscious person going in, because at least someone unconscious isn't going to try and drown you if ignore the (well justified) advice not to enter the water to save another person.

 

Chances are it'll never happen while I'm there. But I don't like looking ahead, at a future me who is saying "I didn't know what to do. I couldn't help."

[pearley]

17 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Any boat (even a narrowboat) built commercially since 1998 is required to have a method of reboarding for a 'man overboard'.

 

14 hours ago, Puffling said:

My boat has those, the "yoghurt pot slashers" on the stern, flat steps about an inch under water.

 

I found using them surprisingly difficult when I tried reboarding following a long swimming session in the Avon river near Pershore last year (remember that heatwave?). And I consider that I have pretty strong leg muscles.

 

Yet I couldn't get adequate purchase on the slippery slimy step to pull myself vertical (grabbing onto the taff rail) in order to haul myself out. In the end, I waded ashore over rocks.

And generally pretty useless. Our previous boat had a flat section projecting out below the stern fender. Our current boat has an 'ear' stuck out either side at the stern. Our neighbours boat has two large steps let in either side. 

 

But, the problem is getting your foot in or onto them, which are bound to be slippery, at the same time trying to get you hand into something to pull yourself up. 

 

Our other neighbour, considerably younger than me, decided to have a swim in the river last summer. He found it impossible to pull hi self out. He now has a folded emergency ladder tied to his stern rail that he can reach easily. 

[Alan de Enfield]

There are always solutions irrespective of your boat design - it all comes down to assessing the risk, are you single handed ?, are you young and able enough to pull yourself up with your arms alone ? Are you a bit more frail / tottery than you were ? and so on.

 

It needs to be something that is immediately available at all times - not something you have to remember to 'hook over the rail' or 'get off the roof' everytime you go on deck, you don't plan to fall overboard so there is no time to get the safety ladder in place as you start to slip.

 

Here is one option that would work on the back of a NB (available in varying number of rungs):

 

 

Bolts / welds onto the rear deck, telescopes down to about 12" -15" high and then folds up vertically - a tug on a piece of string will pull it downwards and make it easy to reach.

 

 

 

 

Would not be "pretty" when installed but certainly usable if you could fit it so it wasn't a trip hazard - it is a life saving device, not an 'art piece'.

 

 

This is what we have on the back of our cruiser, it bolts under the bathing platform is telescopic and simply slides out, drops down and is 'locked solid'

 

[David Mack]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

There are always solutions irrespective of your boat design - it all comes down to assessing the risk, are you single handed ?, are you young and able enough to pull yourself up with your arms alone ? Are you a bit more frail / tottery than you were ? and so on.

But in order to comply with RCD/RCR requirements the reboarding solution needs to work for most people, not just the young and physically strong. Your pull out ladders look to fit the bill, but the token efforts offered by narrow boat builders fall well short. 

I can see workable solutions for the sort of sports cruiser with a rear bathing platform, but do other forms of recreational craft do any better than narrow boats?

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, David Mack said:

but do other forms of recreational craft do any better than narrow boats?

 

I cannot speak for all others, but certainly I have seen that leisure yachts seem to provide suitable means ................

 

one example of a 'pull out of a pocket'.

 

[system 4-50]

10 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Wouldn't work for me, I don't have enough hair.

[IanD]

10 hours ago, David Mack said:

Steps top and bottom of the rudder is better than just a projecting semicircle of counter plate, but even so I imagine many people might struggle to get from the top 'step' onto the deck.

There's also a short stern button with chains (which also act as handholds) there now to act as an extra step, you can also get your knee onto it. I tried climbing up all this before it went into the water and it was quite easy. It's why I don't have any "yoghurt-pot slashers", unlike them this is actually a usable solution to the problem...

 

10 hours ago, wakey_wake said:

 

Very neat. What's the red peg for, on the top of the rudder? 

 

 

It's to stop the rudder swinging more than 90 degrees and getting pulled into the prop if you let go of the tiller when going astern.

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I cannot speak for all others, but certainly I have seen that leisure yachts seem to provide suitable means ................

 

one example of a 'pull out of a pocket'.

 

Good luck fitting that into the stern of a narrowboat -- or indeed anywhere else... 😉

 

As you say it's all a matter of risk -- and the need for something like this on the canals is rather less than on a boat which spends most of its time in deep water, for obvious reasons... 🙂

Edited November 9, 2023 by IanD

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, IanD said:

Good luck fitting that into the stern of a narrowboat -- or indeed anywhere else...

 

David Mack asked how other sectors of the boating industry achieved compliance, this was one example.

 

2 hours ago, David Mack said:

...........but do other forms of recreational craft do any better than narrow boats?

 

[magpie patrick]

When I fell into the Avon from Juno several years ago I climbed onto the back deck of a narrow boat (no way back onto Juno - at least not one I could think of in a hurry in the dark). I used the rudder and the skeg supporting it as the first step. I doubt it was designed with this in mind but I got out. 

17 hours ago, system 4-50 said:

I can see C&RT adopting a requirement for escape steps to be provided every 50yds along both sides of inland canals, for safety reasons.  Until they are installed, the relevant canals will be closed.

 

Whilst they didn't go as far as closing locks they did decide (several decades ago) that ladders in locks were a pretty good idea. The Ashton Canal has even older lock ladders - bricks with toe holds in them.

 

On most lengths of canal though I don't think steps would be needed - the banks are often a gentle slope anyway!

[IanD]

3 hours ago, magpie patrick said:

When I fell into the Avon from Juno several years ago I climbed onto the back deck of a narrow boat (no way back onto Juno - at least not one I could think of in a hurry in the dark). I used the rudder and the skeg supporting it as the first step. I doubt it was designed with this in mind but I got out. 

 

Whilst they didn't go as far as closing locks they did decide (several decades ago) that ladders in locks were a pretty good idea. The Ashton Canal has even older lock ladders - bricks with toe holds in them.

 

On most lengths of canal though I don't think steps would be needed - the banks are often a gentle slope anyway!

 

Or stand up... 😉

[magnetman]

Extra large cutouts for the well deck drain can be useful for getting out if one has a lot of upper body strength. 

Small ones are no good. 

[Stroudwater1]

4 hours ago, magpie patrick said:

 

Whilst they didn't go as far as closing locks they did decide (several decades ago) that ladders in locks were a pretty good idea. The Ashton Canal has even older lock ladders - bricks with toe holds in them.

 

 

I think they may have been replaced on the Ashton now? Iron rungs by the looks of it?

Poor pictures from Summer 2021 in two locks, chance close ups. I’m  not sure folk take pictures of just lock rungs 🤣 

 

I seem to recall slippery foot steps in some Weaver locks with ladders as well. 
 

The Thames locks have proper steps and I was told that’s why Thames locks are meant always to be left empty to avoid algae build up on the steps. 
 

Sadly alcohol was involved in some falling ins which can happen at night making it all even worse. 
 

[IanD]

11 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Extra large cutouts for the well deck drain can be useful for getting out if one has a lot of upper body strength. 

Small ones are no good. 

The problem is that they're even higher up (above water level) than the little welded-on "letter of the law" steps at uxter plate level (just below water level), which are well-nigh impossible to get a foot up onto (and then stand up on them) in water of any depth -- unless you're pretty fit, flexible and not too heavy.

 

If the water is shallow enough to make this step-up possible you don't need either of them, just stand up... 😉

 

To be genuinely helpful for getting out -- especially without assistance -- the first step needs to be much further down near baseplate/skeg level.

Edited November 9, 2023 by IanD

[magnetman]

30 minutes ago, IanD said:

The problem is that they're even higher up (above water level) than the little welded-on "letter of the law" steps at uxter plate level (just below water level), which are well-nigh impossible to get a foot up onto (and then stand up on them) in water of any depth -- unless you're pretty fit, flexible and not too heavy.

 

If the water is shallow enough to make this step-up possible you don't need either of them, just stand up... 😉

 

To be genuinely helpful for getting out -- especially without assistance -- the first step needs to be much further down near baseplate/skeg level.

I did mention upper body strength. 

 

If one does not have this then it is probably better to not fall in the water in the first place. 

 

 

[Wanderer Vagabond]

6 hours ago, magpie patrick said:

When I fell into the Avon from Juno several years ago I climbed onto the back deck of a narrow boat (no way back onto Juno - at least not one I could think of in a hurry in the dark). I used the rudder and the skeg supporting it as the first step. I doubt it was designed with this in mind but I got out. 

 

Whilst they didn't go as far as closing locks they did decide (several decades ago) that ladders in locks were a pretty good idea. The Ashton Canal has even older lock ladders - bricks with toe holds in them.

 

On most lengths of canal though I don't think steps would be needed - the banks are often a gentle slope anyway!

Interesting one that because I've often thought as I've travelled the bit of Staffs and Worcester between Bridge 67 (Marsh Lane Bridge) and Bridge 68 (Forsters Bridge) where is is only one boat width, what an utter b*stard if would be trying to get back out of the canal onto the towpath if you (or your dog) fell in. The banks I would guess are about three feet high, straight out of the water (I don't know how deep the water is) and to me they look almost impossible to climb out on. As I said, when I go swimming in swimming pools I make a point of getting out in the deep end without using any steps or ladder, but that piece of canal is well beyond my pay grade

[David Mack]

11 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

The banks I would guess are about three feet high, straight out of the water (I don't know how deep the water is) and to me they look almost impossible to climb out on.

Since every boat is forced to follow the same path along that section, I imagine it is deeper than much of the rest of the canal.

[IanD]

15 hours ago, magnetman said:

I did mention upper body strength. 

 

If one does not have this then it is probably better to not fall in the water in the first place. 

 

 

I suspect the vast majority of boaters -- many not in the first flush of youth -- would find it well-nigh impossible in water several feet deep to get their foot up to a well deck drain or semi-circular (and mostly useless) welded on step and then pull themselves up -- assuming there was anything within reach to grab onto, which there often won't be.

 

The second comment is hopefully an attempt at humour, since requiring unusual strength obviously means it wouldn't meet the regulations as well as being useless for most people... 😉

[magnetman]

What regulations? 

 

Any sort of place you can use as a foothold is handy. There is no reason not to have a well deck drain big enough to use as a step. 

 

If you also have those folding steps on the side of the cabin and have strong arms and are in water which is not as deep as your height, which would often be the case in a canal, there is a possibility of reboarding by pulling on the folding step and putting a foot in the well deck drain. 

 

It can be done. Not easy in very deep water but in some situations it is an option. 

 

 

[IanD]

17 minutes ago, magnetman said:

What regulations? 

 

Any sort of place you can use as a foothold is handy. There is no reason not to have a well deck drain big enough to use as a step. 

 

If you also have those folding steps on the side of the cabin and have strong arms and are in water which is not as deep as your height, which would often be the case in a canal, there is a possibility of reboarding by pulling on the folding step and putting a foot in the well deck drain. 

 

It can be done. Not easy in very deep water but in some situations it is an option. 

 

 

The ones being discussed about all boats needing to have a "means of reboarding".

 

The little welded-on steps are added by many boatbuilders as a fig-leaf so they can claim they've provided such a means i.e. met the letter of the law. In reality they're almost useless -- as are your well-deck drains -- because they're too high up for most people to use when they really need to use them, which is in water deep enough that just standing up doesn't work.

 

"Not very easy in deep water" is an understatement -- have you ever tried? 😉

[magnetman]

I haven't fallen in recently although very nearly did a couple of weeks ago but being on the Thames with a flow of about 3 knots I would have been finished orf so not really that worried about a reboarding opportunity. 

 

Some people are more flexible than others but I take your point about a lot of narrow boat users being 'older' and having Harold Shipman beards. So yeah. 

 

You Are Right.