Re-boarding: washing line between the rubbing strakes?

[Wanderer Vagabond]

2 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Cold water will mean you lose dexterity and strength in your fingers very quickly as your body concentrates on keeping warm blood in your core. Will make gripping any small diameter line tricky. Having a ladder set up nearby is a good idea. Where I moor it is five to six feet deep. The couple of times I've helped people out of the water here it has been remarkably difficult. Required a minimum of two to pull them out as they were both quite large guys. Alcohol was a contributing factor in both incidents! We petitioned the mooring operator to put in some ladders, which they did.

They've done much the same in the basin in which I moor after someone fell in and it was realised just how difficult it was for them to get out. The experience I had with fishing an elderly lady out of the cut (she was fortunately wearing a self inflating life-jacket and it was in the summer) demonstrated to me just how difficult it can be. She was in her mid to late 70's and trying to pull her up by her arms just led to howls of pain. We eventually solved the problem by getting a tarpaulin that I was using to cover my bike on the roof of the boat, folding it into a 'hammock' and drifting it under her whereby two of us were then able to lift her (and a lot of water) out in the 'hammock', it wasn't easy though. A similar method is used in offshore sailing, using the sail of the boat.

 

Just to practice such things I regularly go swimming (in swimming pools!) and always get myself out, in the deep end, without the use of any ladder. I'm probably kidding myself that it'll make any difference should I ever fall since if that happens I'll undoubtedly be fully clothed.

[IanD]

2 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

They've done much the same in the basin in which I moor after someone fell in and it was realised just how difficult it was for them to get out. The experience I had with fishing an elderly lady out of the cut (she was fortunately wearing a self inflating life-jacket and it was in the summer) demonstrated to me just how difficult it can be. She was in her mid to late 70's and trying to pull her up by her arms just led to howls of pain. We eventually solved the problem by getting a tarpaulin that I was using to cover my bike on the roof of the boat, folding it into a 'hammock' and drifting it under her whereby two of us were then able to lift her (and a lot of water) out in the 'hammock', it wasn't easy though. A similar method is used in offshore sailing, using the sail of the boat.

 

Just to practice such things I regularly go swimming (in swimming pools!) and always get myself out, in the deep end, without the use of any ladder. I'm probably kidding myself that it'll make any difference should I ever fall since if that happens I'll undoubtedly be fully clothed.

 

I find cycling from the towpath into the canal occasionally is also useful practice. If you want to try this method, make sure to take your phone out of your pocket first... 😉

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

I'm sure it does, but since you brought the subject up I though you might want to actually post something helpful to the less knowledgeable members of the forum.

 

I should have known better... 😞

 

Ok - here is a bit of info.

 

The requirement has always been in the RCD (read up fo full details) but it was strengthened in 2017 to include :

 

The essential requirement Point 2.3 of Annex I, Part A of the new Directive has been strengthened. Not only must the watercraft be designed to minimise the risks of falling overboard and facilitate reboarding (as in the old Directive), but means of reboarding (e.g. a ladder) must be accessible to or deployable by a person in the water unaided.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[IanD]

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Ok - here is a bit of info.

 

The requirement has always been in the RCD (read up fo full details) but it was strengthened in 2017 to include :

 

Not only must the watercraft be designed to minimise the risks of falling overboard and facilitate reboarding (as in the old Directive), but means of reboarding (e.g. a ladder) must be accessible to or deployable by a person in the water unaided.

 

So are you saying that all boats -- including narrowboats -- must have a ladder which can be deployed/accessed by somebody who has fallen it? Because I'd bet good money that the vast majority don't have such a thing, including every boat I've ever hired...

 

Or is a much simpler "means of reboarding" acceptable, such as the "yoghurt pot slasher" referred to above -- or indeed anything which can be used as a step?

Edited November 8, 2023 by IanD

[Wanderer Vagabond]

Just now, IanD said:

 

I find cycling from the towpath into the canal occasionally is also useful practice. If you want to try this method, make sure to take your phone out of your pocket first... 😉

Yup, therein lies the only situation when I've fallen in the cut (complete with phone). Riding towards the shops at Napton just after lockdown I saw a long piece of bramble had grown across the towpath directly in line with my chest/arms. Braked to an emergency stop without hitting it, then put the wrong foot down

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

So are you saying that all boats -- including narrowboats -- must have a ladder which can be deployed/accessed by somebody who has fallen it? Because I'd bet good money that the vast majority don't have such a thing...

 

Or is a much simpler "means of reboarding" acceptable, such as the "yoghurt pot slasher" referred to above?

 

 

Do you not understand what "eg" means ?

 

It can be any method (the builders choice) as long as it can be demonstarted that it works for a 'man overboard' to reboard unaided.

 

Many (not NBs) boat builders are incorporating things like a 'pocket' in the stern / transom which houses a rope ladder.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[NB Alnwick]

In my view a decent rigid aluminium ladder such as this one is essential on a narrow boat.

It can be stored on top to be easily deployable. Together with a suitable wooden plank insert in can double as a strong and secure gangplank.

 

[Stroudwater1]

Theres been a few sad cases of drownings on the G&S over recent years. A number of narrowboats have emergency ladders that unfurl hung on the stern as a result. The G&S is pretty deep sided with very few ladders on the side. 

 

Quite a few  look like these ones. Im not sure if they are effective being wobbly rope though?  

 

https://floatyourboat.co.uk/product/emergency-ladder-3-4-or-5-steps/?attribute_pa_number-of-steps=3-steps&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI9aC7t4G1ggMVEuXtCh1oUw3TEAQYAiABEgLjcPD_BwE

 

 

[Wanderer Vagabond]

For all of the talk about the methods and requirements for getting people back out of the water, the biggest single issue is going to be the fitness/mobility/mindset of the person concerned. For the elderly lady I fished out, it wouldn't have mattered what bells and whistles the boat had for someone in the water to rescue themselves, for her is simply wouldn't have happened. Her level of panic was such that I couldn't even get her to try to put her feet down to see if she could stand up in the water (she may well have been able to for all I know). She was only ever going to be rescued from the water by someone else.

[Ewan123]

So long as it sits snug below the widest part of the boat, I don't think it would snag in a lock (which would be my main concern). It could possibly get snagged on awkward branches that you pass... not sure though.

 

I think I would have appreciated such a thing when I fell in last winter. I was daft/stupid/asking for it, so avoidance is best, but something extra in case it happens could be worth it. In my case, I was walking along the icy gunwales (in my slippers, yes really, wtf?) with boathook to smash the inches-thick ice around the boat (frozen in just above Foxton Locks), when I slipped and ended up in the wet. I'd got about 50ft along our 62ft boat, so the short route out (around the bow) was frozen and not an option. I had to wade (about chest deep) back along the boat, and I reckon it would have been a good deal easier (less likely to end up underwater) had I had even a small line to run one hand along (not hold with any fine control, just hook a frozen hand over)- not as a means to climb out, just to help with staying upright. That might have sped up my progress, which was almost vital. It was probably only a minute or two later that a boat came icebreaking past us... had I been in the canal still and they not see me in time, I could have been skewered by a thick sheet of ice between two boats. Very scary thought.

 

As for getting out of the water, I suppose I'm fortunate that I'm fit enough that I'm strong/light enough to just haul my carcass out by grabbing the tiller stem. That won't be the case forever though.

 

First things first though, don't be a tit, do your best not to fall in!

[IanD]

31 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Do you not understand what "eg" means ?

 

It can be any method (the builders choice) as long as it can be demonstarted that it works for a 'man overboard' to reboard unaided.

 

Many (not NBs) boat builders are incorporating things like a 'pocket' in the stern / transom which houses a rope ladder.

 

Of course I understand what "e.g." means -- but as so often you post a worst-case interpretation ("e.g. a ladder") without making it clear that something much simpler is also acceptable (e.g. "yoghurt pot slasher").

 

For example I've never seen a narrowboat with a "rope ladder pocket" so posting about ladders and that seagoing (deepwater) boats have these is basically being alarmist to CWDF readers, isn't it?

 

Posting scary stuff to get attention is what the Daily Wail does, I'd have hoped you were better than that... 😉

Edited November 8, 2023 by IanD

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Of course I understand what "e.g." means -- but as so often you post a worst-case interpretation ("e.g. a ladder") without making it clear that something much simpler is also acceptable.

 

For example I've never seen a narrowboat with a "rope ladder pocket" so posting about ladders and that seagoing (deepwater) boats have these is basically being alarmist to CWDF readers, isn't it?

 

Posting scary stuff to get attention is what the Daily Wail does, I'd have hoped you were better than that... 😉

 

It really is no wonder you get right up people's noses...

[blackrose]

I think most canal boat builders have interpreted a means of someone falling overboard getting back onto the boat as simply a couple of semi circular protrusions of the uxter plate (one on each side of the boat) to be used as a step. The only trouble with that is they're generally at a level close to the waterline and have you ever tried getting your foot up that high to use one when you're in the water? It's impossible. Even getting a foot onto the top of the rudder is a challenge. I've hauled myself out a couple of times at the stern using upper body strength when I've been swimming in the river but it certainly isn't easy.

[Ewan123]

I've passed a couple of moored narrowboats with this sort of thing attached at one end of the boat. Seems a good idea to me.

 

 

https://www.force4.co.uk/item/Osculati/Emergency-Ladder/DGQ

[blackrose]

4 minutes ago, Ewan123 said:

I've passed a couple of moored narrowboats with this sort of thing attached at one end of the boat. Seems a good idea to me.

 

 

https://www.force4.co.uk/item/Osculati/Emergency-Ladder/DGQ

 

Yes I've got one. Just don't attach it above the swim because all that happens is that as you try to use the steps they swing underneath the uxter plate and you end up horizonal in the water on your back.

[David Mack]

5 hours ago, rusty69 said:

9. If you do go in,try standing up. It may only be 3 foot deep.Statistically speaking there is also a high probability of standing on a shopping trolley.

This should be Number 1. If nothing else, finding that you can stand on the bottom gives you the opportunity to pause for a moment and take stock, rather than flail around in a blind panic.

 

Having helped a couple of people out who have fallen in, getting out against a piled bank is often difficult unless the water is shallow and the bank is quite low. In rural areas in particular it may be easier to get out on the non towpath side where the bank may not be piled and where the water at the edge is almost certainly shallower.

[Ewan123]

11 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

Yes I've got one. Just don't attach it above the swim because all that happens is that as you try to use the steps they swing underneath the uxter plate and you end up horizonal in the water on your back.

Yes rope ladders with nothing behind them can be a nightmare to climb.

[Alan de Enfield]

9 minutes ago, Ewan123 said:

Yes rope ladders with nothing behind them can be a nightmare to climb.

 

As you probably know you do not climb a rope ladder in the same was as you do a 'hard ladder'.

You climb a rope ladder from the side with one leg 'in front' of the ladder and one leg 'behind the ladder' as that way they do not move away from you and go under the boat.

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[wakey_wake]

4 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Cold water will mean you lose dexterity and strength in your fingers very quickly as your body concentrates on keeping warm blood in your core. [...]

 

Yes, almost anything to make it quicker = more effective.

 

2 hours ago, DShK said:

I have a telescopic ladder on the roof with ropes running down to the gunwhales, so I can pull it down if I fall in. Got it after I fell in, in a marina. Nowhere suitable to climb out. Luckily it was a lovely day, I could stand, and there were people about to go get a ladder.

 

I blamed falling in on not having enough tread on my boots.

 

It sounds neat but I can't picture this.  Is it reachable from both sides? How much space does it take? How do you protect your head & the paintwork as it descends?

 

 

1 hour ago, Puffling said:

My boat has those, the "yoghurt pot slashers" on the stern, flat steps about an inch under water.

 

I found using them surprisingly difficult [...]

 

After a while of trying to imagine, I cannot figure out the metaphorical youhurt pot, or which of the various meanings of slash might be relevant here. 😕

 

It sounds like the RCD 2017 is going to need revising again at some point because they give the appearance of complying, while not actually complying. It's not something you want to have your estate suing the boat builder over!

 

Or for that matter, a random passer-by suing you if they go in & try to use your kit to climb out. I'm sure we're all happy for our kit to be used for this purpose, and would want it to be effective.

 

 

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

[...] requirement [...] in the RCD [...] was strengthened in 2017 to include :

 

The essential requirement Point 2.3 of Annex I, Part A of the new Directive has been strengthened. Not only must the watercraft be designed to minimise the risks of falling overboard and facilitate reboarding (as in the old Directive), but means of reboarding (e.g. a ladder) must be accessible to or deployable by a person in the water unaided.

 

I like that. It's not prescriptive, but the intention is very clear; and then there are various ways to do it.

 

What's missing is a demonstration of effectiveness, so a broker can say "yes it has a reboarding widget" but whether that's teleporter or a gym rope like my junior school had (never could climb those)...  the broker isn't going to jump in and show me that it works when I buy the boat.

 

 

16 minutes ago, blackrose said:

Yes I've got one. Just don't attach it above the swim because all that happens is that as you try to use the steps they swing underneath the uxter plate and you end up horizonal in the water on your back.

 

Thanks, another aspect of "you have to try the thing to see whether it's effective for you".

[IanD]

1 hour ago, blackrose said:

I think most canal boat builders have interpreted a means of someone falling overboard getting back onto the boat as simply a couple of semi circular protrusions of the uxter plate (one on each side of the boat) to be used as a step. The only trouble with that is they're generally at a level close to the waterline and have you ever tried getting your foot up that high to use one when you're in the water? It's impossible. Even getting a foot onto the top of the rudder is a challenge. I've hauled myself out a couple of times at the stern using upper body strength when I've been swimming in the river but it certainly isn't easy.

 

An example of something that meets the letter of the the law but not the spirit -- ticks the "safety feature" box but is mostly useless in real life. Not just impossible to get a foot up that high in deeper water -- and if you're in shallow water you don't need it, just stand up! -- but even if you're a contortionist and can, there's nothing to grab on to above it to try and pull yourself out, especially where they're often positioned.

 

At least on my boat you have one usable footstep a couple of inches deep at the bottom of the Schilling rudder at skeg level, another one at the top, and you can grab on to the tiller or stern bollards to help you get out. I haven't tried it in the water (yet...) but it worked fine when I tried it in the workshop... 😉

 

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by IanD

[rusty69]

You can't drag those steps behind all the time. 

[IanD]

41 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

As you probably know you do not climb a rope ladder in the same was as you do a 'hard ladder'.

You climb a rope ladder from the side with one leg 'in front' of the ladder and one leg 'behind the ladder' as that way they do not move away from you and go under the boat.

 

I'm sure most experienced rope ladder climbers like you are perfectly well aware of this 🙂

 

Unfortunately 99% of the public are not, they inevitably try to climb with both feet in front and it swings away from them (under the boat, in this case) as described above... 😞

 

[Tacet]

2 hours ago, IanD said:

 

I'm sure it does, but since you brought the subject up I though you might want to actually post something helpful to the less knowledgeable members of the forum.

 

I should have known better... 😞

The RCR requirement is here:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2017/737/schedule/1

See 2.3.  It is not prescriptive on how it should be met - any more than how the risks of falling overboard must be minimised.

 

There are several exclusions (see Regulation 4) from the Essential Requirements so it is not really the case that every boat made since 1999 must have a means of reboarding.  The exclusions include boats built for own use.  Some take this as meaning DIY - but I am more inclined to take it as, for example, a boat commissioned from scratch which is probably the majority of narrowboats.   Such boats are nevertheless subject to the five year rule.

 

A means of reboarding is a wise precaution.  Having tried to use the oft-provided small waterline step in near ideal circumstances (a deliberate swim in a heatwave), it is challenging.

 

[system 4-50]

I can see C&RT adopting a requirement for escape steps to be provided every 50yds along both sides of inland canals, for safety reasons.  Until they are installed, the relevant canals will be closed.

[IanD]

13 minutes ago, Tacet said:

The RCR requirement is here:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2017/737/schedule/1

See 2.3.  It is not prescriptive on how it should be met - any more than how the risks of falling overboard must be minimised.

 

There are several exclusions (see Regulation 4) from the Essential Requirements so it is not really the case that every boat made since 1999 must have a means of reboarding.  The exclusions include boats built for own use.  Some take this as meaning DIY - but I am more inclined to take it as, for example, a boat commissioned from scratch which is probably the majority of narrowboats.   Such boats are nevertheless subject to the five year rule.

 

A means of reboarding is a wise precaution.  Having tried to use the oft-provided small waterline step in near ideal circumstances (a deliberate swim in a heatwave), it is challenging.

 

 

I suspect that in a real emergency with normal -- possibly older and less nimble -- people, those steps are pretty much useless rather then just challenging, even if the builder says "I've followed the rules and provided a means of reboarding"... 😞