I know there must be a thread in here, somewhere. But I can not find it. SO ! My question - ignoring the hassle/time finding

[Pauls816]

Hiya All !! 

Happy Hump day.

 

My question - ignoring the hassle/time finding trades(people) and where it would be worked on.. Is buying a lined NB and getting in the various professionals to fully fit it out, cheaper than buying a fully fitted NB from the Boat Builder ? I appreciate I am asking a very general question. I just wondered if there is a generally yes, or generally - mostly no...

Thank you 

 

Pauls816

[ditchcrawler]

I would very much doubt it and you would still be classed as the builder with all the legal responsibilities that may go with it. Unless you are going to do it your self IMO buy a complete boat

[David Mack]

Bear in mind that if you employ various professionals, you are legally the boatbuilder, and obliged to comply with all the RCR stuff (unless you are going to treat it as a self build and keep it for at least 5 years). Better IMO to let the boatbuilder deal with all that.

 

[system 4-50]

No.  imho.

[nicknorman]

46 minutes ago, Pauls816 said:

Hiya All !! 

Happy Hump day.

 

My question - ignoring the hassle/time finding trades(people) and where it would be worked on.. Is buying a lined NB and getting in the various professionals to fully fit it out, cheaper than buying a fully fitted NB from the Boat Builder ? I appreciate I am asking a very general question. I just wondered if there is a generally yes, or generally - mostly no...

Thank you 

 

Pauls816

I’d say no. Apart from anything else, tradespeople need to be told exactly what to do and are only interested in their own little bit, they are not interested in the big picture. Unless you are very competent at canal boat building project management, chances are a lot of mistakes will be made that require expensive rectification work. It’s best not to reinvent the wheel, get someone who is familiar with wheels to build the boat for you!

[Tony1]

My guess would be no- you'll end up paying more in the end by hiring professionals yourself.

It might be different if you could learn some skills, buy lots of tools and materials, and do some of the fitout work yourself. But even then,  it would take a LOT longer to complete the fitout.

Which is understandable- you might be doing a given fitout job for the first time in your life, whereas the boat builder's guys have done that same job half a dozen times so far this year, and they will have better tools, and other professionals' advice and experience just a shout away..  

But that said, I do remember seeing a builder who would fit out a new boat to various stages as per your preference.

Their price list (I think) said it was £3500 to install a SF stove with your new boat (and that was in 2019), whereas you could hire a professional to install one for a fair bit less than that. So there will be the odd exception.

But there is a sort of common sense principle that might apply, which is that if any installed component is faulty with a completed boat from a builder, you only have one company to go back to and get it fixed. 

With a dozen different installers involved, I feel there might be potential for them to blame each other if things go wrong with their installed gear.   

Also, you'll be the one responsible for maintaining an overall plan that allows all the different jobs to be done in the right sequence, and with no conflict in terms of them needing to use the same location or space to install something- or maybe covering up an area with wood panels when another installer might want to get access to that area to install their thing. 

I wouldn't fancy the hassle of it, personally speaking, other than maybe for a few items where the boatbuilder's price seem to be very expensive.  

 

Edited November 1, 2023 by Tony1

[MtB]

I would say not by a country mile, or this would be a VERY popular way of getting a cheap(er) new narrowboat. But no-one ever does it, so one should (IMO) surmise it's more expensive (prolly a LOT more expensive) than getting the slickly organised professional narrowboat builder to build the whole thing. 

 

But if you fancy doing it, go for it and let us know the true answer! 

 

 

 

 

[plato]

2 hours ago, David Mack said:

Bear in mind that if you employ various professionals, you are legally the boatbuilder, and obliged to comply with all the RCR stuff (unless you are going to treat it as a self build and keep it for at least 5 years). Better IMO to let the boatbuilder deal with all that.

 

Apparently not ,  I was recently chatting to Jonathan Leask who is a knowledgeable and well regarded surveyor, regarding RCD compliance for a new build and he said the 5 year rule has been scrapped there is now no exemption however long you keep the boat it  must be RCD compliant. However the whole scheme is pretty toothless from what I’ve seen 

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, plato said:

Apparently not ,  I was recently chatting to Jonathan Leask who is a knowledgeable and well regarded surveyor, regarding RCD compliance for a new build and he said the 5 year rule has been scrapped there is now no exemption however long you keep the boat it  must be RCD compliant. However the whole scheme is pretty toothless from what I’ve seen 

 

That has been known for some time.

The RCD is for the lifetime of the boat, and, the builder is legally responsible for it should anything that he 'signed off' cause death or injury.

 

However - tell that the the forum patriarchy and they'll just tell you the RCR is totally irellevant anyway &,it doesn't apply on the inland waterways.

[MtB]

20 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The RCD is for the lifetime of the boat, and, the builder is legally responsible for it should anything that he 'signed off' cause death or injury.

 

I'm curious now. How many boat builders are prosecuted each year for causing "death or injury" as a result of the design of a narrowboat they built? Given there is no enforcement of RCD/RCR? 

[Tacet]

8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

That has been known for some time.

The RCD is for the lifetime of the boat, and, the builder is legally responsible for it should anything that he 'signed off' cause death or injury.

 

However - tell that the the forum patriarchy and they'll just tell you the RCR is totally irellevant anyway &,it doesn't apply on the inland waterways.

Alan, without doubt you know a great deal about the RCD etc (is it not now the RCR in the UK?) but you also have a tendency of bigging it up.  It would be much more helpful not to exaggerate.

 

For example, recently you have told us (as well as kindly advising various boat builders) both that all new diesel tanks must have inspection hatches and that gas pipe sizing is specified in the RCR. But you can't give us chapter and verse - and it seems to several of us that it is not the case.

 

Above you say the builder is legally responsible for anything signed of that cause death or injury.  Where do we find that, please?  Is there a strict liability imposed by the RCR or does the builder have to be negligent?  If it's the latter, isn't it pretty much the same as in most walks of life?

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

1 hour ago, plato said:

Apparently not ,  I was recently chatting to Jonathan Leask who is a knowledgeable and well regarded surveyor, regarding RCD compliance for a new build and he said the 5 year rule has been scrapped there is now no exemption however long you keep the boat it  must be RCD compliant. However the whole scheme is pretty toothless from what I’ve seen 

 Never heard of him, which area?

All surveyor’s have their own opinion and as you say it’s a toothless requirement/legislation for a Narrowboat on the inland waterways, as has been discussed many times on here previously over the last 5 years.

Edited November 1, 2023 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[Captain Pegg]

54 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I'm curious now. How many boat builders are prosecuted each year for causing "death or injury" as a result of the design of a narrowboat they built? Given there is no enforcement of RCD/RCR? 

 

53 minutes ago, Tacet said:

Alan, without doubt you know a great deal about the RCD etc (is it not now the RCR in the UK?) but you also have a tendency of bigging it up.  It would be much more helpful not to exaggerate.

 

For example, recently you have told us (as well as kindly advising various boat builders) both that all new diesel tanks must have inspection hatches and that gas pipe sizing is specified in the RCR. But you can't give us chapter and verse - and it seems to several of us that it is not the case.

 

Above you say the builder is legally responsible for anything signed of that cause death or injury.  Where do we find that, please?  Is there a strict liability imposed by the RCR or does the builder have to be negligent?  If it's the latter, isn't it pretty much the same as in most walks of life?

The responsibility is intrinsic to the regulations; they are legally binding documents.

 

The reason people aren’t prosecuted is because people aren’t dying as a result of lack of compliance.

 

The state won’t bring a prosecution because somebody didn’t comply but there was no resulting consequence; but if somebody were to die or be injured then that’s the evidence required that could lead to successful prosecution.

 

That’s how H&S laws are enforced.

 

Albeit the principle purpose of the RCR is to ensure a level commercial playing field for entry into the EU market. If flouting them gave UK builders a competitive advantage over other manufacturers then the EU could take action against the UK. That’s probably not a likely scenario in the case of narrow boat building but that’s only a small proportion of boat building even in the UK I suspect.

[blackrose]

About 18 years ago after I bought my widebeam and started to fit it out myself, a guy turned up at the marina in a similar sailaway and proceeded to employ a string of tradespeople and another skilled boater to fit it out for him. He didn't do any of the work himself. Although the final finish looked pretty good it ended up costing him at least £45K more than had he just bought a fully fitted boat from the builder.

 

So as everyone else has said, the answer to the OP's question is "No".

 

The only way that fitting out a sailaway will ever be cheaper than buying the same fully fitted boat is if you fit it out yourself - that's the whole point of a sailaway. Of course if you apportion a cost to your time & labour then it might not be cheaper and if you balls it up it could end up costing you considerably more.

Edited November 2, 2023 by blackrose

[Tacet]

9 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

The responsibility is intrinsic to the regulations; they are legally binding documents.

 

The reason people aren’t prosecuted is because people aren’t dying as a result of lack of compliance.

 

The state won’t bring a prosecution because somebody didn’t comply but there was no resulting consequence; but if somebody were to die or be injured then that’s the evidence required that could lead to successful prosecution.

 

That’s how H&S laws are enforced

Well, yes and no.  For example the Health a

& Safety at Work Act imposes duties, makes it an offence not to comply with those duties and provides for penalties.   It is a criminal matter.

 

Alan seems to be saying that anyone who signs off an RCR has a perpetual liability for any injury caused by the signed-off item.  This suggests a strict liability and seems unlikely to me, but I don't know.  Are there exceptional liabilities arising from the RCR? Or is it largely the same as anything else - if you're negligent and cause injury, you're in trouble?

[Captain Pegg]

31 minutes ago, Tacet said:

Well, yes and no.  For example the Health a

& Safety at Work Act imposes duties, makes it an offence not to comply with those duties and provides for penalties.   It is a criminal matter.

 

Alan seems to be saying that anyone who signs off an RCR has a perpetual liability for any injury caused by the signed-off item.  This suggests a strict liability and seems unlikely to me, but I don't know.  Are there exceptional liabilities arising from the RCR? Or is it largely the same as anything else - if you're negligent and cause injury, you're in trouble?

Alan is correct. And I’d say it’s a useful contribution to point out to the OP what his legal position is in the event that he embarks upon his chosen course of action.

 

I also think you and I are on the same wavelength that there would only be a problem for the OP if non-compliance to the regulations was a causal factor in a subsequent incident involving death or significant injuries.

 

The HSE and associated agencies don’t prosecute ordinary citizens for lack of compliance where there is no consequence.

[Tony Brooks]

3 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

I also think you and I are on the same wavelength that there would only be a problem for the OP if non-compliance to the regulations was a causal factor in a subsequent incident involving death or significant injuries.

 

Or when a future disgruntled purchaser starts legal action.

 

I know many here say it is rubbish, but I have had it confirmed that one unidentified broker refused to handle the sale of an in scope boat without the RCD/RCR paperwork, and there have been other instances reported.

[Captain Pegg]

Just now, Tony Brooks said:

 

Or when a future disgruntled purchaser starts legal action.

 

I know many here say it is rubbish, but I have had it confirmed that one unidentified broker refused to handle the sale of an in scope boat without the RCD/RCR paperwork, and there have been other instances reported.

There are certainly dealers that won’t entertain taking on a boat without the correct documentation but I struggle to see on what grounds a potential purchaser could take legal action.

 

A court isn’t going to assign a monetary value for the loss caused to someone because they couldn’t/wouldn’t buy a boat.

 

But if of course they did buy the boat and then deficiencies came to light as the result of an accident then the builder would be liable both to state and private action. But isn’t that Alan’s point?

[Tony Brooks]

16 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

But if of course they did buy the boat and then deficiencies came to light as the result of an accident then the builder would be liable both to state and private action. But isn’t that Alan’s point?

 

If deficiencies came to light without an accident, and they were breaches of the RCR/RCD then I think the new owner would have a case for damages against the vendor to enable those deficiencies to be rectified.

[David Mack]

3 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

If deficiencies came to light without an accident, and they were breaches of the RCR/RCD then I think the new owner would have a case for damages against the vendor to enable those deficiencies to be rectified.

Surely only if there had been misrepresentation. And if there is no RCR paperwork, then there has been no credible claim that the boat was sold as compliant.

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

If deficiencies came to light without an accident, and they were breaches of the RCR/RCD then I think the new owner would have a case for damages against the vendor to enable those deficiencies to be rectified.

 

The vendor? Not the builder?

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, MtB said:

 

The vendor? Not the builder?

Yes, but in this case, the proposal is for the eventual vendor to be the builder.

[Captain Pegg]

3 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

If deficiencies came to light without an accident, and they were breaches of the RCR/RCD then I think the new owner would have a case for damages against the vendor to enable those deficiencies to be rectified.

Theoretically I guess so, but would a court be bothered with such trivial matters given that it would also take a lack of due diligence on part of the purchaser?

[MtB]

 

Are you saying you think liability (if the is any) passes from owner to owner? I think Alan is saying it remains with the builder for ever.

[LadyG]

16 hours ago, Pauls816 said:

Hiya All !! 

Happy Hump day.

 

My question - ignoring the hassle/time finding trades(people) and where it would be worked on.. Is buying a lined NB and getting in the various professionals to fully fit it out, cheaper than buying a fully fitted NB from the Boat Builder ? I appreciate I am asking a very general question. I just wondered if there is a generally yes, or generally - mostly no...

Thank you 

 

Pauls816

I would say that if you are trying to trim costs at this stage you are in for a big culture shock.

I thought I would get professionals to do the things that I could not cope with due to lack of skills and resources.

I have had the boat for four years and six months and have had to do do most of the work myself.

You have to know what you want and potential difficulties/costs/etc.

I have found that the standard workperson wants simple instructions eg, replace batteries and check for safety issues, eg fit my new solar panels kit, eg change the engine oil, include oil filter, and so on, you are expected to know enough to tell him what you want done, which is something i did not know when i first got this boat.

Last night I started on the bed alcove decor. I'm half way through and I've now worked out how to do it for a professional finish. It will probably need to be done again  as it will be better next time!

I have tried to find a boat fitter to do some renovation.

One person told me he had a two year waiting list, and recently the same guy gave me a quote of £12K, this is just for a galley!

One person told me the job was too big, ie they don't have a workshop or have trade conracts etc .

I have now found someone who is willing and is also competent, at least he has a workshop, and I've seen his work. 

I have asked for some prices, which is difficult as one never knows the potential problems, which I suppose is what the £12K quote was meant to cover.

Getting different trades persons in piecemeal is tricky if this is your first project, essentially things have to be done properly, and in the correct order, an electrician is quite likely ro leave the wiring floating about, which then requires  carpentry skills to box it in.

I asked someone if he could replace my car radio, yes, but when finished he said I would need to download music in to a dongle, and that would how I would use it  ..... doh .....

I now have a little aerial, but only two working speakers, boat is wired for four!

 

Edited November 2, 2023 by LadyG