Help understanding energy systems

[LadyG]

9 hours ago, Jon57 said:

I have . But it’s full of spuds.😜

Bathtub gin?

On 09/08/2023 at 17:15, Lady C said:

I had more problems with my brand new boat than I did with one of my second hand purchases.

I had quite a few problems but mainly due to my lack of understanding of the complexity, most boats  have relatively simple systems.

I have a Tyler Wilson hull with portholes and windows. It is an excellent build..

Portholes  provide privacy in the bed niche, it is cooler , though it might be a good idea to have one or two opening portholes.

With respect to hot water systems, I have a Webasto,, the engine  heats the water in calorifier, the back boiler heats the bathroom radiator, and keeps the boat warm and dry.

So I almost always have warm water.

I understand that there are stoves which can stay in for long periods unattended,  it might be worthwhile getting a good brand, mine requires quite a bit of attention and I don't leave the boat unless the fire is established and stable. 

The hot water in the calorifier feeds the shower. So there is no mixer, i have to wait overnight for the water to cool if ive been running the engine for a few hours. I could use up some hot water eg by using the washing machine,  or doing hand washing. This would reduce the shower temperature. 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 11, 2023 by LadyG

[LadyG]

On 09/08/2023 at 15:24, Rob-M said:

It's not as simple as that if you don't want to annoy other boaters.  The T&C's of the licence say you can only run an engine or generator between 8am and 8pm unless using the engine for propulsion.

And if you moor up next to someone in a quiet area and then turn on the engine to do something, don't be surprised if they are not very pleased.

[Peanut]

If you are going to fit out a sailaway, then I would recommend you get two books by Tony Booth from the Waterways World bookshop.

 

“Narrowboat Planning,” Which goes into the choices of layout for your boat, and “The Narrowboat Builder's Book.” The latter will help with specifying what you want from the builder, like where you want the windows and such like, as well as giving an overview of the fit out process.

 

The books are slightly dated, but are full of useful help and guidance which will likely save you time and money.

 

Corrected, Graham Booth

No excuse, I had them in front of me.

Edited August 11, 2023 by Peanut

[LadyG]

12 hours ago, Tony1 said:

 

I do use two centre lines, but I do like the sound of having an eye on each side of the roof. 

I dont have a rail, but rather a ridge at each side, so I would want eyes welding on I think. 

Certainly sounds easier to use than fairleads. 

Maybe its time to learn how to do simple welding jobs....

 

I have suffered from a previous owner thinking he can weld .. 

I'd not allow anyone not experienced in boatbuilding to mess about with centreline fixings or mooring points.

I dont use a fairlead to handle the boat, I can see an advantage, but it would have to be strong, as worse case scenario it would take a lot of pressure when the boat is going down in a lock and the rope is fixed, for whatever reason. 

I have considered a brass bar where the centreline wears the paintwork,  but it's not a major problem.

Edited August 11, 2023 by LadyG

[David Mack]

38 minutes ago, Peanut said:

If you are going to fit out a sailaway, then I would recommend you get two books by Tony Booth from the Waterways World bookshop.

Graham Booth.

[rusty69]

2 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Graham Booth.

An ideal surname for someone giving advice on small spaces for Americans.

 

booth | American Dictionary ... a small structure just big enough for one person to use: There was a line of people waiting for the phone booth. A booth is also a ...

[system 4-50]

17 hours ago, David Mack said:

Macerator toilets are more like a domestic toilet to use, but if you or any of your guests puts anything down the pan other than pee, poo and cheap paper (don't get the strong-when-wet stuff), you will soon become acquainted with how to unblock your macerator mechanism.

I don't understand this cheap paper idea.  I put lots of Couchelle paper down my mascerator and never had problems with it.

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, system 4-50 said:

I don't understand this cheap paper idea.  I put lots of Couchelle paper down my mascerator and never had problems with it.

 

I tend to agree, it is the plastic reinforced stuff like wet wipes that cause the problems. I suspect that you will find that your paper started life as four-ply

with a soft, weak paper on the outside and two plies of stronger, rougher ones on the inside. I suspect bamboo paper inside.

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

On 10/08/2023 at 14:56, Tony Brooks said:

 

A decent, well vented drop through toilet is arguably as simple as a cassette, but without the need for the boater to carry waste around and empty it.

 Getting harder to find a pump out facility and a decent one too, also price of £15-£25 now the norm in a lot of places, A good Thetford with a couple of cassettes seam to work better on the system, if you can handle emptying your own effluent, unlike a lot of drama queens what I see on the Canal.

Edited August 13, 2023 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[LadyG]

On 10/08/2023 at 13:22, MtB said:

 

This touches on another point. Hot water from an instantaneous gas water heater such as a Morco is utterly, totally BRILLIANT.

 

BUT... since the RCD came in, new boats have not been allowed to have open flued appliances so you only find Morcos on pre-1998 boats generally. And on post-1998 boats where the owner doesn't care about the arbitrary, meaningless bureaucratic tick-box lists that so many other boaters care so deeply about. 

Can you guess which camp I fall into?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

On 10/08/2023 at 13:38, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Are instaneous water heaters classed as "unattended appliances" ?

 

As you know, irresepctive of the RCD, the BSS does allow the installation of open flued water heaters.

 

 

@MtB

 

Just wondered if you'd be kind enough to answer the above as having read thru the RCD & BSS requirements your statement doesn't seem to align with the facts.

 

Could you quote the relevant specification and clause that you refer to when they say that they have been banned since 1998 ?

 

 

On 10/08/2023 at 13:22, MtB said:

.............so you only find Morcos on pre-1998 boats generally. And on post-1998 boats where the owner doesn't care about the arbitrary, meaningless bureaucratic tick-box lists that so many other boaters care so deeply about. 

 

 

The BSS specifically states ......................

 

There is a growing recognition of the risks associated with the use of non room-sealed gas appliances when used in confined spaces such as boats. These risks include poisoning and suffocation to individuals on board from improperly flued and ventilated appliances. So new LPG appliances must be room sealed, except where room-sealing is not physically possible, i.e. cooking appliances.

There is one specific exception to this rule and this is for LPG instantaneous water heaters. Based on the good previous safety record of these particular appliances, and until such a time as a room-sealed direct replacement becomes easily available, British Waterways and the Environment Agency accept the continued installation of instantaneous water heaters on private boats. If you are changing your non-room sealed instantaneous water heater it's strongly recommended that you consider room sealed alternatives.

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

 Getting harder to find a pump out facility and a decent one too, also price of £15-£25 now the norm in a lot of places, A good Thetford with a couple of cassettes seam to work better on the system, if you can handle emptying your own effluent, unlike a lot of drama queens what I see on the Canal.

 

That is until the Elsan point you have travelled to is closed or blocked. Personally, I don't begrudge £20 once every two or three weeks for the convenience of not being limited with very limited storage capacity or the need to find space for spare cassettes. I was more than happy to DIY my pump outs because that way I knew it was properly pumped out and rinsed - that is DIY at a proper pump out machine. I have never had a problem finding a pump out when needed.

[MtB]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

@MtB

 

Just wondered if you'd be kind enough to answer the above as having read thru the RCD & BSS requirements your statement doesn't seem to align with the facts.

 

Could you quote the relevant specification and clause that you refer to when they say that they have been banned since 1998 ?

 

 

 

 

The BSS specifically states ......................

 

There is a growing recognition of the risks associated with the use of non room-sealed gas appliances when used in confined spaces such as boats. These risks include poisoning and suffocation to individuals on board from improperly flued and ventilated appliances. So new LPG appliances must be room sealed, except where room-sealing is not physically possible, i.e. cooking appliances.

There is one specific exception to this rule and this is for LPG instantaneous water heaters. Based on the good previous safety record of these particular appliances, and until such a time as a room-sealed direct replacement becomes easily available, British Waterways and the Environment Agency accept the continued installation of instantaneous water heaters on private boats. If you are changing your non-room sealed instantaneous water heater it's strongly recommended that you consider room sealed alternatives.

 

 

A bit of joined up thinking is needed here. You ask if a Morco is classed as an unattended appliance then in question 2, go on to quote the BSS explaining the risk associated with it being an untended appliance.

 

I can't quote specific regulations as I have better things to do with my time. My sock drawer needs sorting out.*

 

 

* Credit Tracey for that one. 

[Alan de Enfield]

21 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

A bit of joined up thinking is needed here. You ask if a Morco is classed as an unattended appliance then in question 2, go on to quote the BSS explaining the risk associated with it being an untended appliance.

 

I can't quote specific regulations as I have better things to do with my time. My sock drawer needs sorting out.*

 

 

* Credit Tracey for that one. 

 

 

Can you please show me where the BSS state that it is an "untended appliance" as I am trying to identify the definition of the water heaters.

 

The RCD uses the term 'unattended appliance', whilst the BSS seems to ignore anything in the RCD relating to 'instananeous water heaters' and has their own rules (as quoted above) 

 

 

So, in fact, you cannot support the statement that they cannot be used in post 1998 boats - it is just you having your usual 'pop' at the RCD

 

You should remember that folks come on her looking for help and you inventing 'facts' does no one any good.

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

36 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

That is until the Elsan point you have travelled to is closed or blocked. Personally, I don't begrudge £20 once every two or three weeks for the convenience of not being limited with very limited storage capacity or the need to find space for spare cassettes. I was more than happy to DIY my pump outs because that way I knew it was properly pumped out and rinsed - that is DIY at a proper pump out machine. I have never had a problem finding a pump out when needed.

“That is until the Pump Out point you have travelled to is closed or broken”

 There’s far more Elsen disposal points on the system than Pump Out machines, which break down/block up and need servicing. Easier to store a couple of spare cassette’s under the bed than a 500Ltr waste tank.

[system 4-50]

What proportion of hire boats have this superb and highly desirable cassette poo-bagging system rather than a well-installed PO system?  How many hire boats advertise the delights of the cassette system with the opportunity to hoist bags of poo about, as a premium feature of their boats?  Just askin'.

[MtB]

Just now, system 4-50 said:

What proportion of hire boats have this superb and highly desirable cassette poo-bagging system rather than a well-installed PO system?  How many hire boats advertise the delights of the cassette system with the opportunity to hoist bags of poo about, as a premium feature of their boats?  Just askin'.

 

And which hire companies require their hirers to do the pump-out for themselves before they hand the boat back? Just askin'! 

[David Mack]

Quite. Hire boat bases have pumpout machines so it makes more sense for boatyard staff to deal with that side of things, rather than the customer.

So different from when my parents first hired in the 60s. The boat came equipped with a galvanised Elsan bucket with a wooden seat, and a spade, so the hirer could dig a hole in a nearby field and bury the toilet contents.

[Jon57]

2 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Quite. Hire boat bases have pumpout machines so it makes more sense for boatyard staff to deal with that side of things, rather than the customer.

So different from when my parents first hired in the 60s. The boat came equipped with a galvanised Elsan bucket with a wooden seat, and a spade, so the hirer could dig a hole in a nearby field and bury the toilet contents.

Think my mooring pin has just found the very spot.😬

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

1 hour ago, system 4-50 said:

What proportion of hire boats have this superb and highly desirable cassette poo-bagging system rather than a well-installed PO system?  How many hire boats advertise the delights of the cassette system with the opportunity to hoist bags of poo about, as a premium feature of their boats?  Just askin'.

What’s hire boaters got to do with toilets on this thread? Most hire boaters pick their boat up Monday ready to go(empty waste tank) cruise a ring for a week return boat part filled waste tank, which is emptied by the hire companies turn-around staff. Then hirers go home. Simple and easy. Totally different from finding a pump out on the system or emptying a toilet cassette.

[Ken X]

1 hour ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

What’s hire boaters got to do with toilets on this thread? Most hire boaters pick their boat up Monday ready to go(empty waste tank) cruise a ring for a week return boat part filled waste tank, which is emptied by the hire companies turn-around staff. Then hirers go home. Simple and easy. Totally different from finding a pump out on the system or emptying a toilet cassette.

As one of the hirers who usually needs to pump out at least once during our annual pilgrimage and occasionally twice, we have never had a problem finding a pump out machine.  Judicious use of a torch or noting the lights on the toilet unit gives us a couple of days warning (as does the list of the boat to one side 😀) and a visit to a marina or, more usually, another hire company yard on a day they are not spinning boats sorts the issue. If the first yard or marina cannot help then they often suggest alternatives and a quick ring if we require confirmation seals the deal.  Many things do catch us out, but not loos.  Can be a good reason to visit the pub.👍

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

1 hour ago, Ken X said:

As one of the hirers who usually needs to pump out at least once during our annual pilgrimage and occasionally twice, we have never had a problem finding a pump out machine.  Judicious use of a torch or noting the lights on the toilet unit gives us a couple of days warning (as does the list of the boat to one side 😀) and a visit to a marina or, more usually, another hire company yard on a day they are not spinning boats sorts the issue. If the first yard or marina cannot help then they often suggest alternatives and a quick ring if we require confirmation seals the deal.  Many things do catch us out, but not loos.  Can be a good reason to visit the pub.👍

You obviously hire on a busy section with A few Marina’s who may have arrangements in place for their hirers to use others facilities, working pumpouts in my area are getting less and are £20-£25 a time, far easier, quicker and cheaper to use cassettes 

[IanD]

1 hour ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

You obviously hire on a busy section with A few Marina’s who may have arrangements in place for their hirers to use others facilities, working pumpouts in my area are getting less and are £20-£25 a time, far easier, quicker and cheaper to use cassettes 

Obviously it all depends on what area/canal you're in and how much you travel around, as well as how big your holding tank is. If you're on a canal with few boatyards and don't move much then a pumpout isn't such a good idea, even if you have a pretty big black tank which lasts a couple of weeks or more between pumpouts. But if there are more boatyards and/or you travel more and don't mind paying £5-£10 a week or thereabouts, pumpouts are an easier/quicker/less messy option than cassettes -- but considerably more expensive to both install and run.

 

As usual on narrowboats, there's no perfect solution, they both have plus and minus points, and each will suit different people... 😉

Edited August 13, 2023 by IanD

[magnetman]

Fire works 

 

 

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

21 minutes ago, IanD said:

Obviously it all depends on what area/canal you're in and how much you travel around, as well as how big your holding tank is. If you're on a canal with few boatyards and don't move much then a pumpout isn't such a good idea, even if you have a pretty big black tank which lasts a couple of weeks or more between pumpouts. But if there are more boatyards and/or you travel more and don't mind paying £5-£10 a week or thereabouts, pumpouts are an easier/quicker/less messy option than cassettes -- but considerably more expensive to both install and run.

 

As usual on narrowboats, there's no perfect solution, they both have plus and minus points, and each will suit different people... 😉

Exactly all depending on areas, I think a bit more than £5-£10 more like £15-£25, you may get it for £5 if moored at that particular marina and part of the agreement, maybe free once a month, everywhere is different. What toilet did you opt for?