Playground for the Rich

[Midnight]

7 minutes ago, kris88 said:

8 pages later and your getting to the crux of the matter. Any large licence increase will result in more avoidance. Increasing the cost of enforcement, negating any benefit from increased fees. There’s already an increase in boats showing no name or number. Crt don’t count these boats in their figures. So rather than becoming a playground for the rich. It will only be wealthy people, poor people (benefit funded.) and the lawless. 

 

Yes you are correct. However reducing license fees wont bring the freeloaders onbard. A purge on unlicensed, unregistered boats may cost a bit but it may also make the remaining "lawless" think twice. There needs to be a big rethink on this. Maybe make boat parks, similar to gypsy & traveller sites with restrictions on movement in and out, where CMers can stay legally for a smaller fee?

[kris88]

Just now, Tonka said:

So you are proposing to do nothing. At least with my proposal, CRT or whoever will have to do something

I’m not proposing anything. I’m just pointing out the inevitable outcome of a huge liscence fee increase. 

[MtB]

1 minute ago, kris88 said:

I’m not proposing anything.

 

As usual. 

 

 

[Bargebuilder]

11 minutes ago, kris88 said:

The only people forced off the cut will be the law abiding middle income boaters especially leasure boaters. So I’d be careful what you wish for. A large liscence fee increase isn’t going to effect the lawless or benefit funded. 

Agree, but add to the group forced off widebeam owners, apart from the very well heeled ones: do I hear cheers?

[kris88]

17 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

As usual. 

 

 

Playing the man again?

8 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

Agree, but add to the group forced off widebeam owners, apart from the very well heeled ones: do I hear cheers?

But their boats don’t leave. 

Edited July 16, 2023 by kris88

[Bargebuilder]

12 minutes ago, kris88 said:

Playing the man again?

But their boats don’t leave. 

But the used price of widebeams will plummet as the cost of owning them rises. Owning one will, however, appeal greatly to people who have no intention of licensing it.

[Mike Todd]

5 hours ago, Bargebuilder said:

The CRT website says: "In 2021-22, 100 boats were removed from our navigations as they were unlicensed, despite the Boat Licence Customer Support team’s best efforts to resolve matters; many were abandoned boats."  That's less than 5% of the non-payers according to the CRT's own estimation. This figure possibly includes sunken wrecks.

 

 

But it does not say that all abandoned boats were removed. I've seen plenty still there.

[Bargebuilder]

47 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

But it does not say that all abandoned boats were removed. I've seen plenty still there.

I don't think that is a claim that they would dare make.

[magnetman]

I think the cut could be a better place if it consisted of rich people, benefit funded people and the lawless. Sounds ideal.

Cut out the middle(class) man. What's  not to like ?

 

 

 

it is a long established rule that us upper class citizens get in far better with the working classes than the dreadfull middle classes. 

 

I especially apply this rule to women who wear dungarees. I can't handle it at all. 

 

I think dungarees wearers should be banned from inland waterways yesterday. 

 

 

[kris88]

47 minutes ago, magnetman said:

I think the cut could be a better place if it consisted of rich people, benefit funded people and the lawless. Sounds ideal.

Cut out the middle(class) man. What's  not to like ?

 

 

 

it is a long established rule that us upper class citizens get in far better with the working classes than the dreadfull middle classes. 

 

I especially apply this rule to women who wear dungarees. I can't handle it at all. 

 

I think dungarees wearers should be banned from inland waterways yesterday. 

 

 

Why am I not surprised? I suppose for you, you’ve got the two options. If you inheritance comes through you can be one of the wealthy boaters or if not you can be benefit funded. 

[Arthur Marshall]

5 hours ago, magnetman said:

it is a long established rule that us upper class citizens get in far better with the working classes than the dreadfull middle classes. 

 

I especially apply this rule to women who wear dungarees. I can't handle it at all. 

 

I think dungarees wearers should be banned from inland waterways yesterday. 

 

 

It's a long established belief of the upper classes. Oddly, I've found the working classes have a somewhat different view of the toffs, as well as generally encouraging their offspring into the middle !

I shall say nothing about dungaree fetishes, except that, according to Freud*, this does appear to be a common trait among landlords.

 

*not sure which one.

Edited July 16, 2023 by Arthur Marshall

[MrBean]

On 15/07/2023 at 20:05, David Mack said:

 

How do you know which boats are unlicensed? Although licences are supposed to be displayed, CRT have made it clear that licence display is not actually necessary for them to check which boats are licensed. So inevitably some boaters never get around to displaying their boat licences. And passing boaters and towpath walkers may get a misleading impression about the level of licence evasion.

CRT have a pretty good idea which boats are unlicensed and are pursuing them in the background, out of sight of most boaters.

 

My own impression is that there are far more boats now with no or out of date licences displayed than there used to be. When passing a single line of private on-line moorings recently I counted 29 boats showing a valid licence and 72 either not showing one or it was out of date. A very small poll, but I did it to see if my feeling that I seem to pass a lot of boats not showing a valid licence was a realistic impression.

The licence now has the date much smaller so it is very difficult to read from any distance, which can’t help compliance checking. 

Do people with a valid licence choose not to display it or are there just a very large number of unlicensed boats and CRT are kidding themselves as to the real scale of the problem?

[dogless]

How do you know they're unlicensed unless you've checked their reg no. ?

 

Marinas and private moorings are visited by number checkers, and many private moorings insist on license and insurance for obvious reasons.

 

It's amazing how easy it is to find evidence to support one's own prejudices  😁

 

Rog

 

 

[IanD]

6 minutes ago, dogless said:

How do you know they're unlicensed unless you've checked their reg no. ?

 

Marinas and private moorings are visited by number checkers, and many private moorings insist on license and insurance for obvious reasons.

 

It's amazing how easy it is to find evidence to support one's own prejudices  😁

 

Rog

 

 

And the increasing number of boats with no visible registration number or name?

 

Please don't try and tell me I'm prejudiced too, I see them every day -- and often in the same place for long periods too... 😉

 

I suppose it could just be a London thing, but somehow I doubt it... 😞

Edited July 18, 2023 by IanD

[MrBean]

1 minute ago, dogless said:

How do you know they're unlicensed unless you've checked their reg no. ?

 

Marinas and private moorings are visited by number checkers, and many private moorings insist on license and insurance for obvious reasons.

 

It's amazing how easy it is to find evidence to support one's own prejudices  😁

 

Rog

 

 

If you are referring to my post, at no point does it say unlicensed boats. I very carefully refer to boats not displaying a valid licence, which I believe remains a requirement. If this is true, one may infer these boats are not licenced but I suspect that would be highly inaccurate. 
I’m unteuigyed why so many boats choose not to display a valid licence, if they have paid up.

[Guest]

Its no wonder so many boaters would be averse to seeing a big hike in licence costs when the Trust seem so ineffective at ensuring the maximum number of existing boats on the system are licensed.

 

It would pee me off for sure.

[Ronaldo47]

I remember reading that the number of untaxed cars soared when they got rid of the tax disc, the revenue lost exceeding the projected savings arising from abolishing paper licences.

[Hudds Lad]

8 minutes ago, MrBean said:

I’m unteuigyed why so many boats choose not to display a valid licence, if they have paid up.

I'm sure the reasons are legion, but as an example: a liveaboard who has no access to a printer.

[dogless]

And the increasing number of boats with no visible registration number or name?

 

 

Are an issue for C&RT staff and not every 'curtain twitcher' who has  no idea what stage any process is at.

 

Rog

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, MrBean said:

I’m unteuigyed why so many boats choose not to display a valid licence, if they have paid up.

 

When we used to very occasionally run without a valid licence on display it was usually because it had been posted to our home address and we were on an extended cruise.

 

We were once licensed checked (At Alrewas) by a licence checking bod who didn't bat an eyelid as he could see from his little handheld gizmo that our boat was in fact licensed.

 

If it was now it would be sat in my email inbox waiting till I got home to print it. Then possibly another week or two until I got back to the boat to put it in the window.

[IanD]

15 minutes ago, dogless said:

And the increasing number of boats with no visible registration number or name?

 

 

Are an issue for C&RT staff and not every 'curtain twitcher' who has  no idea what stage any process is at.

 

Rog

 

True, and it's obviously possible that CART know exactly who they are and what their license status is.

 

It's also possible that faced with an anonymous boat with no name or number or means of ID and nobody on board, they don't know if it's licensed or not or to who, and have no way of tracking it, or enforcing any infringements against its owner since they've no idea who that is.

 

"Grey 50' narrowboat moored in Willesden" isn't very helpful for such purposes... 😞

[Machpoint005]

34 minutes ago, Ronaldo47 said:

I remember reading that the number of untaxed cars soared when they got rid of the tax disc, the revenue lost exceeding the projected savings arising from abolishing paper licences.

 

It may have done at first, but the electronic system nowadays identifies an unlicensed vehicle every time it is seen by an ANPR camera. 

 

I'd be interested to see up to date figures if you can find any.

 

Similarly I suspect that CRT's unacknowledged move to an electronic system will produce more revenue, not less, but since it is unacknowledged, no figures will yet be available.

 

As for Kris88's assertion that an increased licence fee would increase non-compliance and eat up the increased revenue I can only ask again: where's the data supporting this view? 

[IanD]

Just now, Machpoint005 said:

 

It may have done at first, but the electronic system nowadays identifies an unlicensed vehicle every time it is seen by an ANPR camera. 

 

I'd be interested to see up to date figures if you can find any.

 

Similarly I suspect that CRT's unacknowledged move to an electronic system will produce more revenue, not less, but since it is unacknowledged, no figures will yet be available.

 

As for Kris88's assertion that an increased licence fee would increase non-compliance and eat up the increased revenue I can only ask again: where's the data supporting this view? 

 

How does an electronic system work with an unidentifiable boat/owner? No name, no license or number, no owner on board when the checker calls...

 

I really don't understand why CART dropped the requirement to display the registration number and license, after all there's no ANPR on the canals -- or license plates to recognise, any more... 😞

[kris88]

6 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

It may have done at first, but the electronic system nowadays identifies an unlicensed vehicle every time it is seen by an ANPR camera. 

 

I'd be interested to see up to date figures if you can find any.

 

Similarly I suspect that CRT's unacknowledged move to an electronic system will produce more revenue, not less, but since it is unacknowledged, no figures will yet be available.

 

As for Kris88's assertion that an increased licence fee would increase non-compliance and eat up the increased revenue I can only ask again: where's the data supporting this view? 

If you want a reply then I’d suggest you quote me. How can there be data for something that hasn’t happened yet? 
 

[dogless]

I asked C&RT staff regarding boats without name and number and was assured they have a process but didn't  explain ...  as I'm not really concerned I had no desire to pursue it.

 

Rog