solar

[magnetman]

https://www.photonicuniverse.com/en/catalog/full/694-360W-Black-LG-NeON%C2%AE-H-monocrystalline-solar-panel-with-half-cut-Technology.html?gclid=Cj0KCQiAx6ugBhCcARIsAGNmMbgZL7uzSjRC51gn1-lRunauXZbp2p40bnCWMqhlvJArIVftS54wqNQaAilFEALw_wcB

 

 

Don't know how many they have and £350 each is a lot to pay !!

 

I paid £180 for my 355w LG all black panel about 2 yars ago but it was the last one he had and collect in person. 

 

They seem good. 

 

Don't know if they are any better than JA solar or Canadian Solar in real terms.

 

Another interesting fact is that the bigger panels are now supplied in larger widths. 

 

600w looks interesting for narrow boats. 

 

1.3m wide might be quite good compared with the more usual 1.0

 

The Canadian 600w solar panel whose dimensions is 2172 ˣ 1303 ˣ 35 mm (85.5 ˣ 51.3 ˣ 1.38 in), is a monocrystalline solar panel made out of the highest-grade silicon.

 

Laid lengthways on a 12m cabin top you could get 5 of them which is 3kw.

[Tony1]

 

Does the 3k budget include lithium batteries? 

A recent thread gave some examples by Fogstar and others, where you can get 460Ah of batteries for under £1400.

That would leave you £1600 for the MPPTs and panels. 

A brace of victron MPPTs (the 100/50 model) will cost about £600, which leaves £1000 for panels and any fixtures. 

The victron 100/50 will handle up to 50 amps each, so you want about 1500 watts worth of panels, maybe?

I use one victron unit with each set of panels (the larger set it 750 watts), and they seem well matched.  

Another option would be to use three cheaper 50 amp MPPTs, and see if you afford even more panels. 

 

One thing I would do if starting over would be to use 1m wide panels on the front half of the boat, because I seldom have to walk on that part.

But I would only use 80cm wide panels on the rear half of the roof, as I walk on that part more often in locks, and my 1m wide panels dont really allow quite enough space to place your feet alongside them, so it all feels a bit sketchy. 

 

Be sure to leave enough roof space free at the rear that you can jump down onto the roof, i.e. dont place panels right up to the rear edge. 

Tilting panels are a nice to have feature, but it is very debatable about whether they give you enough of a charge boost on enough of the days days to be worth the extra cost. 

I've got tilting mounts on my rear panels, but not on the front. 

And between march- sept, with that many panels you wont ever be tilting them anyway- its more of a winter thing. 

 

In terms of real world yields, we've had the best solar day for a long time today, and I've had 1370 Wh from my rear set of panels. Previously it was closer to 500/600 Wh most days. 

With 1500watts of panels they'll start being useful in mid-Feb (depending on how overlooked you mooring is), then you'll have the odd day where you get hot water from them in about mid-March (and by May you'll have hot water most days), and they tail off towards being almost useless by mid to end Nov. 

So the very limited period is say mid-Nov to mid-Feb, with of course the occasional half decent day. e.g. I did have a day in late Jan where tilting the rear panels got me 1200Wh, but those are rare.

 

 

 

Edited March 10, 2023 by Tony1

[Alan de Enfield]

5 hours ago, IanD said:

It's not 1.8m wide, allowing for gunwales and tumblehome a typical narrowboat roof is maybe 5'6" wide edge-to-edge which is 167cm, and this assumes you are OK with panels extending right to the edge over the handrails which most aren't -- so normally about 1.5m panel width is the limit, and it may well be less than this. With 1.5m you can just fit in 295W panels crossways, each of which takes 1m of roof and costs £162 from Bimble:

 

 

5 hours ago, magnetman said:

My LG 355w panel is 1686mm long which is not much over the dimension you mentioned above for width of cabin top.

 

I hesitate to suggest that 1686 is a 'bit of an overhang' (and would actually overhang the hand rails making them unusable), Ian's suggesting that to fit within the rails would require a panel of 1500mm which is about 7" smaller than the panel suggested.

[magnetman]

I did suggest elevating the panels by several inches to make the handrails useable. 

[Tony1]

30 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

1.3m wide might be quite good compared with the more usual 1.0

 

 

If the OPs budget includes batteries, I think they'll struggle to afford 3kw of panels plus MPPTs. 

But in particular I wouldn't go wider than 1m on any part of the roof for flat panels. Obviously you can use wider ones if you get the  bendy ones, as you can walk on them. 

The OP has indicated they like to cruise around, so they'll be doing plenty of locks, and having got the 1m wide panels myself, I can say that walking alongside them feels a bit risky, especially in the rain. 

I'd use 1m wide panels on the front part of the roof, and 80cm on the rear, or wider if using the flexible ones. 

The flexi ones do look much nicer and they really keep the lines of the roof, but I dont know if they perform quite so well as the rigid flat ones, and for me personally its all about the performance you get from them, not the aesthetics. 

But then maybe the fact that you can use the full width of the roof and get wider flexi panels makes up for the slightly lower yields that you get from them? 

Horses for courses, and all that. 

 

Edited March 10, 2023 by Tony1

[IanD]

In the end it all comes down to what your priority is; getting the maximum amount of solar on the roof regardless (for a boat which seldom moves, presumably like the wideboat pictured earlier with the roof completely covered and no tumblehome) which is what magnetman seems to be suggesting, or getting a decent amount on which doesn't hit bridges and still allows walking along and across the roof like other posters (including me) are suggesting.

 

If you want a walkable roof with rigid panels than you can get about 1.5kWp on a typical narrowboat, or about 2kWp with (much more expensive) semi-flexible panels like mine. If you go for solar above all else (at the expense of prcticaility when moving) you can get about 3kWp on a narrowboat -- which still isn't enough in midwinter to mean you don't need a generator (or to run the engine for charging).

 

Each kW of panels will give an average yield of about 3.5kWh in summer but <1kWh in winter -- these are averages, so more on a sunny summer's day and even less on a dark rainy winter's day. The only way to be generator/engine-running free all year -- unless you're *extremely* frugal with power use -- is to have a wideboat covered in panels... 😉

 

Don't get me wrong, solar (and LFP batteries!) are great and well worth it, but on their own they're still not a year-round power solution for a narrowboat... 😞

[Tony1]

2 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Don't get me wrong, solar (and LFP batteries!) are great and well worth it, but on their own they're still not a year-round power solution for a narrowboat... 😞

 

Tell you what though, you do get a pretty decent stretch with 1500 watts of panels.

Maybe its because I've been in more open moorings this year, but I found the very poor period was only about 3 months. I even got solar hot water today- on 10th March! 

Nothing like a bit of solar bragging 🤣

 

 

[IanD]

17 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

If the OPs budget includes batteries, I think they'll struggle to afford 3kw of panels plus MPPTs. 

But in particular I wouldn't go wider than 1m on any part of the roof for flat panels. Obviously you can use wider ones if you get the  bendy ones, as you can walk on them. 

The OP has indicated they like to cruise around, so they'll be doing plenty of locks, and having got the 1m wide panels myself, I can say that walking alongside them feels a bit risky, especially in the rain. 

I'd use 1m wide panels on the front part of the roof, and 80cm on the rear, or wider if using the flexible ones. 

The flexi ones do look much nicer and they really keep the lines of the roof, but I dont know if they perform quite so well as the rigid flat ones, and for me personally its all about the performance you get from them, not the aesthetics. 

But then maybe the fact that you can use the full width of the roof and get wider flexi panels makes up for the slightly lower yields that you get from them? 

Horses for courses, and all that. 

 

 

The semi-flexible panels have the same efficiency as rigid ones because the cells inside them are the same, and as you say they can be wider so you can get more output then narrower rigid ones, and they look a lot better. But I don't think many DIY installers would be happy with the bill, the retail cost of mine (which I doubt is what a boatbuilder pays...) is £266 each (inc. VAT) for 160W (£1.66/W), compared to £163 for a 295W rigid panel (£0.55/W), so 3x as expensive... 😞

 

8 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

Tell you what though, you do get a pretty decent stretch with 1500 watts of panels.

Maybe its because I've been in more open moorings this year, but I found the very poor period was only about 3 months. I even got solar hot water today- on 10th March! 

Nothing like a bit of solar bragging 🤣

 

 

Indeed, the more solar you have (and the less power you use) the less time you'll need to run a genny or the engine, which is why getting the most solar on the roof that works for you (or magnetman) is a great idea. But I assume you still need a genny (or engine running, or plugging in) for the dark depths of winter... 😞

 

(and charging by running the propulsion engine is expensive because of low efficiency and adds running hours which means more servicing and shorter lifetime, if you care about that)

Edited March 10, 2023 by IanD

[Tony1]

11 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

The semi-flexible panels have the same efficiency as rigid ones because the cells inside them are the same, and as you say they can be wider so you can get more output then narrower rigid ones, and they look a lot better. But I don't think many DIY installers would be happy with the bill, the retail cost of mine (which I doubt is what a boatbuilder pays...) is £266 each (inc. VAT) for 160W (£1.66/W), compared to £163 for a 295W rigid panel (£0.55/W), so 3x as expensive... 😞

 

 

Indeed, the more solar you have (and the less power you use) the less time you'll need to run a genny or the engine, which is why getting the most solar on the roof that works for you (or magnetman) is a great idea. But I assume you still need a genny (or engine running, or plugging in) for the dark depths of winter... 😞

 

(and charging by running the propulsion engine is expensive because of low efficiency and adds running hours which means more servicing and shorter lifetime, if you care about that)

 

I'd love flexible panels I must admit, but that is a bit steep if you're on a budget...

 

I have no figures, but my feeling is that adding another 1kw to my panels would only extend the useful solar season by perhaps a month of each year.

It would pay for itself eventually I guess, but the faffing around on the roof would be significant, and I do like having some spare space for coal up there.  

I think 1.4kw of panels is a good overall compromise for my 50ft boat, but if it was 57ft I'd probably get a few more up there!

 

[IanD]

31 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

I'd love flexible panels I must admit, but that is a bit steep if you're on a budget...

 

I have no figures, but my feeling is that adding another 1kw to my panels would only extend the useful solar season by perhaps a month of each year.

It would pay for itself eventually I guess, but the faffing around on the roof would be significant, and I do like having some spare space for coal up there.  

I think 1.4kw of panels is a good overall compromise for my 50ft boat, but if it was 57ft I'd probably get a few more up there!

 

 

Agreed 100% about the cost, if you are just installing solar then it's a huge cost adder -- and difficult to install properly. But compared to the number of arms and legs building a new hybrid boat is costing me anyway it's a tiny drop in the ocean, and I don't have to install them... 😉

 

That was my point -- since on a narrowboat you can't get to the point where solar keeps you going all year, compromising other things like ability to use the roof and not destroy panels in bridges and tunnels to squeeze a bit more in doesn't seem like a good tradeoff to get maybe another month of useful solar. But given the relatively low cost of solar nowadays -- at least, rigid panels! -- it makes sense to get as much solar on the roof as you can without compromising other things like roof access too much -- so 1.4kW of rigid panels for you, 2.1kW of semi-flexible for me.

 

(and maybe more for magnetman if he doesn't care so much about practicality with a moving boat, which is a perfectly valid personal choice...)

Edited March 10, 2023 by IanD

[magnetman]

I don't have a narrow boat. 

 

I also use a minute amount of electricity so a very large solar panel array is of no use to me. 

 

 

Just pointing out what could be done with a narrow boat. I wouldn't do it as I like roof walking but some people may view this as less important than power generation. 

[Puffling]

34 minutes ago, magnetman said:

[...] I also use a minute amount of electricity so a very large solar panel array is of no use to me. 

 

 

Just pointing out what could be done with a narrow boat. I wouldn't do it as I like roof walking but some people may view this as less important than power generation. 

I'm also in the 'parsimonious user' power category. Even in the depths of winter I've had enough for laptop, tablet, drone batteries, phone charging and lighting from dusk to midnight.

 

My three 295W panels occupy the front half of the boat, longer dimension lengthways. This gives me two narrow corridors for walking along each side. And the back of the boat is totally free.

 

As @Tony1 has said,

today was the best day for solar so far this year. After cleaning snow off the panels at 7am, power streamed in reliably through to just before six pm. Batteries were charged by 11am, similar to the conditions in summer. But I do always select moorings away from any shading.

Flat mounted panels, 885W series wired. I still have a Honda generator, but it's been very quiet for four months. Nice to have as backup, however.

[magnetman]

Its been about 17 yars since I was on a narrow canal. One forgets how narrow they are ! 

 

Nice picture. 

 

 

[peterboat]

On 09/03/2023 at 14:43, magnetman said:

 

You can fit a heck of a lot of solar on top of a narrow boat.

 

Canadian Solar 375w Mono Perc for example.

 

Part No: CS3L-375MS-MC4-F30

Monocrystalline Panels

• Rating: 375W
• Efficiency: 20%
• Width: 1,048mm
• Height: 1,765mm

 

You could easily get 3kw on the top of the cabin.

 

 

I don't know how much @blackrose has but I doubt it is much more than 3kw.

ETA I see Mike quoted 4 square metres so at around 20 percent efficiency that would be something like 800w of solar. Not a particularly large array.

 

A narrow boat cabin top of 40ft is 12 metres long x 1.8 wide so if you did actually cover it with appropriately sized panels you would be able to achieve a total install, based on 20%, of something like 4.3kw of solar.

 

Slight overkill but there is room for it.

 

 

No you can't, I have 5 Kw on my widebeam and that includes the wheelhouse, the boat would be unusable, handrails blocked centre rope covered and still not enough 

[magnetman]

Yes but my later post pointed out that there arrr now 600w panels. 1.3m wide and 2.2m long. If you had an 11m length of cabin top you can get 5 of these which is in fact 3kw as rated. 

I would never have a centre rope attached to the centre of the cabin top. The idea here is you want a line in the centre of the -length- of the boat and you want one each side. The way to do this with cant handrails is to have bridges in the right location.

With tubular handrails with welded stands you can put the centre line around one of those ensuring the rope will break before bending anything. 

Ropes attached to points located in the middle of the cabin top is a fundamentally bad design. It just isn't right for a number of different reasons.

 

 

On a narrow boat if you have a rope attached to a point in the middle of the cabin top and a silly situation occurs with this rope either tied up or possibly fouled by another boat you could actually get the boat rotated far enough to capsize it. 

 

This could still happen with a rope attached to handrail bridge but there is less angle available so the boat would not be turned right upside down if for example your rope was caught up by a submarine going at about 90 degrees to you. 

[peterboat]

As I and others have pointed out it would be unusable so wouldn't be a boat anymore. Chimneys, centre rope and vents would stop it working, remember it's a boat he is looking at not one he is having built. 

If I removed all obstructions on the roof I could fit more but would be really difficult to be safe to handle

[PD1964]

2 hours ago, peterboat said:

No you can't, I have 5 Kw on my widebeam and that includes the wheelhouse, the boat would be unusable, handrails blocked centre rope covered and still not enough 

 Seams to be the fashion with the new electric boats, roof completely covered with flexi panels, no where to walk if needed to get on, unless you walk on them and some with no centre line eyes, for the sake of one more panel. Just shows how much these new buyers have worked a boat or even the boat fitters.

Edited March 10, 2023 by PD1964

[ditchcrawler]

16 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

 Seams to be the fashion with the new electric boats, roof completely covered with flexi panels, no where to walk if needed to get on, unless you walk on them and some with no centre line eyes, for the sake of one more panel. Just shows how much these new buyers have worked a boat or even the boat fitters.

I often wonder if they match the life of the panel against the number of years between repaints, it would be interesting removing a panel with a 20 year life after 10 years to repaint the roof. A bit like bonded windows which seem to be the latest fashion.

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, PD1964 said:

 Seams to be the fashion with the new electric boats, roof completely covered with flexi panels, no where to walk if needed to get on, unless you walk on them and some with no centre line eyes, for the sake of one more panel. Just shows how much these new buyers have worked a boat or even the boat fitters.

Which is why I have room on my roof to walk and climb on it, as well as being able to use the centre ropes.

I took my semi flexible panels off and replaced them with rigids, they seem to be smaller for a bigger output

Edited March 10, 2023 by peterboat

[IanD]

3 hours ago, PD1964 said:

 Seams to be the fashion with the new electric boats, roof completely covered with flexi panels, no where to walk if needed to get on, unless you walk on them and some with no centre line eyes, for the sake of one more panel. Just shows how much these new buyers have worked a boat or even the boat fitters.

As I said, practicability and being able to walk on the roof do matter -- if I'd ignored that I could have fitted more panels, but chose not to... 😉

[magnetman]

I love a bit of post purchase rationalisation. 

[Up-Side-Down]

18 hours ago, MrFish said:

Sadly i thing LG have stopped making solar panels some time near the end of last year.

Indeed they have. Their excellent bi-facial offering is no more, although there will be other manufacturers that go down that route.

[Jon57]

34 minutes ago, Up-Side-Down said:

Indeed they have. Their excellent bi-facial offering is no more, although there will be other manufacturers that go down that route.

Indeed. My Panasonic/ LG panel has been a great panel. Sadly only had room for one 😞

[Adam]

I measured my roof when deciding on solar. I have a tim Tyler -1300mm inside the handrails is the measurement. I went for 860 X 700mm and laid them width ways from bimble solar. You can walk past but it makes you be careful.

 

 

[LadyG]

I have two panels, flat and they occupy less than half the roof length.

Solar works seven months, the rest of the time I top up with engine. I use the launderette. NB The Small House (Sowerby) will collect and deliver plus service very economic imho. About £28 per month for one person Inc additives.

I've never used my own w.m. never walked on my roof.

Lots of hot water from engine and back boiler.

Edited March 11, 2023 by LadyG