These new log burner rules.......

[Ronaldo47]

Wasn't there a problem a couple of winters ago with smoke from the stoves of boats in Paddington Basin affecting a local hospital, or perhaps it was flats? 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Ronaldo47
typo

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Ronaldo47 said:

Wasn't there a problem a couple of winters ago with smoke from the stoves of boats in Paddington Basin affecting a local hospital, or perhaps it was flats? 

 

It was flats I think. There was a thread on here about it from memory.

[Tonka]

45 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Yes, I understand that, but if I am to take issue it is on the test results. 

If I get my stove working well it is obvious from the emmissions that there is a big difference between the actual clear emissions from smokeless fuel and the black muck that it emits when it's starting up, and this can take a long time plus firelighters.

I am sure that clusters of boaters in enclosed urban areas are going to cause local pollution, but I'm not sure what the solution is other than banning boats with stoves. Boats with diesel heating need to go for the same reason. In the end it means electric bollards. Green Bollards of course!

Burning green bollards is definitely not going to help

[Alan de Enfield]

16 minutes ago, Tonka said:

Burning green bollards is definitely not going to help

 

The usual loads of bollards.

[DaveP]

2 hours ago, Ronaldo47 said:

Wasn't there a problem a couple of winters ago with smoke from the stoves of boats in Paddington Basin affecting a local hospital, or perhaps it was flats? 

There was - I was close by the wazzock who did this.  The stench was pretty unbearable; I have no idea what he was burning, but it was horrible.  The hospital air-con intakes are close by the East end of the visitor moorings in the basin.  I was told by the ranger who came round the following morning that St Mary's had closed down their cardi-thoracic ward that evening and were all for removing all the moorings for ever to prevent a reoccurrence.  The wazzock at first denied he'd burned anything other than smokeless, until it was pointed out that the audience were his fellow moorers and we were not happy bunnies.

[TheBiscuits]

2 hours ago, IanD said:

P.S. I've got a PDF copy of "Ignition" if anyone wants a read, can't post it here because it's 3.5MB...

 

https://library.sciencemadness.org/library/books/ignition.pdf

[Paul C]

3 hours ago, IanD said:

 

 

 

The solution will either be to only allow the burning of smokeless fuel in urban areas -- which is difficult to enforce, and likely to be flouted by bloody-minded boaters with a chainsaw -- or if this doesn't work, ban stoves entirely, at least in urban areas. Though how you can enforce that a boat with a stove -- and maybe burns wood -- that moors in the sticks doesn't come into town and do it will be tricky to say the least, so maybe just banning stoves completely is the only workable option.

 

Workable for the government that is, not the poor bloody boater... 😞

 

So there's 3 options:

1. Ban all but smokeless fuel in urban areas
2. Ban stove use in urban areas
3. Ban stoves entirely

 

In theory, there is scope for an exemption for boaters (depending on which of the above is chosen) but I don't hold out much hope for it, given that recent successes are somewhat thin on the ground; and that if option 2 or 3 is selected (which will seem somewhat draconian, especially if you've recently paid £'000s for an installation in a home), they will be wondering why boats are unfairly exempted. Especially since there are theoretical options, of diesel (not great though....) and gas (only a bit better). 

 

Ultimately, its going to be electric bollards along the canals but then the big question is where? And who controls them? I don't see CRT funding it, for example. (I know about Llangollen, but that's atypical...)

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, Paul C said:

 

So there's 3 options:

1. Ban all but smokeless fuel in urban areas
2. Ban stove use in urban areas
3. Ban stoves entirely

 

In theory, there is scope for an exemption for boaters (depending on which of the above is chosen) but I don't hold out much hope for it, given that recent successes are somewhat thin on the ground; and that if option 2 or 3 is selected (which will seem somewhat draconian, especially if you've recently paid £'000s for an installation in a home), they will be wondering why boats are unfairly exempted. Especially since there are theoretical options, of diesel (not great though....) and gas (only a bit better). 

 

Ultimately, its going to be electric bollards along the canals but then the big question is where? And who controls them? I don't see CRT funding it, for example. (I know about Llangollen, but that's atypical...)

 

But there are already laws regarding 'smoke'. The issue here is not smoke  it is PM2.5 particles (to small to be seen) which are emitted either with or without smoke being present

 

It is the burning of wood (particulary damp / wet wood) that gives off deadly levels of PM2.5.

 

The question is :  how to stop wood being burnt. in both houses AND boats.

Edited February 15, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[Ronaldo47]

One problem is that governments have a track record of introducing regulations without providing the bodies who are made  responsibie for enforcement, with the resources to do so.

[TheBiscuits]

23 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The question is :  how to stop wood being burnt. in both houses AND boats.

 

Give free smokeless fuels out ....

 

Simple, effective and very unlikely!

[Arthur Marshall]

22 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

But there are already laws regarding 'smoke'. The issue here is not smoke  it is PM2.5 particles (to small to be seen) which are emitted either with or without smoke being present

 

It is the burning of wood (particulary damp / wet wood) that gives off deadly levels of PM2.5.

 

The question is :  how to stop wood being burnt. in both houses AND boats.

The answer is that you can't. Not by legislation anyway. You could do it overnight by ensuring everybody had the facility to stay warm affordably, but that would take something governments aren't good at,  which is intelligence. Making it harder and harder and more and more expensive to keep warm aint going to do it, any more than hanging people for sheepstealing stopped hungry people stealing sheep.

2 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Give free smokeless fuels out ....

 

Simple, effective and very unlikely!

Beat me to it!

15 minutes ago, Ronaldo47 said:

One problem is that governments have a track record of introducing regulations without providing the bodies who are made  responsibie for enforcement, with the resources to do so.

That's the inefficiency which saves us all.

[Paul C]

37 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

The question is :  how to stop wood being burnt. in both houses AND boats.

 

You either create a suitably detailed and complicated regulation which bans wood but allows other fuels (which creates issues and/or extra costs in enforcement) or apply a broad brush rule which has collateral damage. Eg the solid fuel stove sales and installation industry (as well as boaters, which are basically insignificant in the big picture).

 

We have a number (that number might be 1) of London boaters to thank for NOT helping the boater's cause.

[cuthound]

7 hours ago, IanD said:

 

The figures are encouraging, and should allow the continued use of these fuels.

 

The problem will be people who ignore the rules and and carry on burning wood, because I suspect it'll always be easy to obtain off the back of a lorry, or via DIY and a chainsaw -- nothing is as cheap as this.

 

If too many people do this -- and I suspect boaters will be among the culprits, given the offgrid lifestyle of many and their reluctance to follow rules -- then a complete ban on solid-fuel stoves is likely to follow.

 

So let's hope that selfish people don't screw things up for everybody else -- though going by history on land and on the canals, I wouldn't hold out too much hope of this... 😞

 

Unfortunately in the canalside woods near to me there is evidence of many trees that have had branches removed, presumably by boaters as the dog walkers would be noticed if they did it.

 

This has only begun to happen over the last couple of years and has caused much ill feeling towards boaters by the local population.

[peterboat]

46 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Give free smokeless fuels out ....

 

Simple, effective and very unlikely!

The problem is smokeless fuels are in reality worse for the environment than well seasoned logs. Maybe pellet stoves are the answer?

[Paul C]

9 minutes ago, peterboat said:

The problem is smokeless fuels are in reality worse for the environment than well seasoned logs. Maybe pellet stoves are the answer?

 

It depends which "environment" you mean - the local air quality, or the global one? This is all about particulates in built up areas.

[peterboat]

8 minutes ago, Paul C said:

 

It depends which "environment" you mean - the local air quality, or the global one? This is all about particulates in built up areas.

There are particulates in smokeless fuel unfortunately, it would seem well seasoned wood and smokeless fuel produce the same amounts of particulate matter 

https://www.coals2u.co.uk/faqs/clean-air/#:~:text=Both smokeless fuel and kiln,(see figure 1 below).

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, peterboat said:

There are particulates in smokeless fuel unfortunately, it would seem well seasoned wood and smokeless fuel produce the same amounts of particulate matter 

https://www.coals2u.co.uk/faqs/clean-air/#:~:text=Both smokeless fuel and kiln,(see figure 1 below).

 

Did you not see the table Mr. D posted earlier?

 

 

[Paul C]

28 minutes ago, peterboat said:

There are particulates in smokeless fuel unfortunately, it would seem well seasoned wood and smokeless fuel produce the same amounts of particulate matter 

https://www.coals2u.co.uk/faqs/clean-air/#:~:text=Both smokeless fuel and kiln,(see figure 1 below).

 

I think you're reading/comprehending it wrong. They're saying smokeless fuel produces 75-80% less than raw coal; and that kiln-dried wood produces 75-80% less than unconditioned wood. They're not comparing smokeless fuel to seasoned wood.

[magnetman]

It is all part of the ongoing hijack of basic personal liberties. 

 

Loss of freedom is not very nice but it is something the masses will walk into happily given enough coercion. 

[IanD]

57 minutes ago, Paul C said:

 

I think you're reading/comprehending it wrong. They're saying smokeless fuel produces 75-80% less than raw coal; and that kiln-dried wood produces 75-80% less than unconditioned wood. They're not comparing smokeless fuel to seasoned wood.

I gave figures earlier from the government, as opposed to somebody selling coal who could hardly be said to be unbiased... 😉

1 hour ago, Paul C said:

 

It depends which "environment" you mean - the local air quality, or the global one? This is all about particulates in built up areas.

...for which even dried wood is 5x worse than smokeless fuel.

[IanD]

54 minutes ago, magnetman said:

It is all part of the ongoing hijack of basic personal liberties. 

 

Loss of freedom is not very nice but it is something the masses will walk into happily given enough coercion. 

You mean the basic personal liberty to continue doing something that is now known to contribute significantly to the deaths of others?

 

Passive smoking is an exactly equivalent case, probably with a similar death rate...

Edited February 15, 2023 by IanD

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, IanD said:

I gave figures earlier from the government, as opposed to somebody selling coal who could hardly be said to be unbiased... 😉

...for which even dried wood is 5x worse than smokeless fuel.

 

Yes we know Mr. D. I linked to them earlier.

 

 

[IanD]

3 hours ago, Paul C said:

 

So there's 3 options:

1. Ban all but smokeless fuel in urban areas
2. Ban stove use in urban areas
3. Ban stoves entirely

 

In theory, there is scope for an exemption for boaters (depending on which of the above is chosen) but I don't hold out much hope for it, given that recent successes are somewhat thin on the ground; and that if option 2 or 3 is selected (which will seem somewhat draconian, especially if you've recently paid £'000s for an installation in a home), they will be wondering why boats are unfairly exempted. Especially since there are theoretical options, of diesel (not great though....) and gas (only a bit better). 

 

Ultimately, its going to be electric bollards along the canals but then the big question is where? And who controls them? I don't see CRT funding it, for example. (I know about Llangollen, but that's atypical...)

 

Electric bollards (and water source heat pumps on boats) might be the ideal solution especially for CO2, diesel or gas are both fine from the PM2.5 point of view but obviously not for CO2... 😉

[Arthur Marshall]

11 minutes ago, IanD said:

You mean the basic personal liberty to continue doing something that is now known to contribute significantly to the deaths of others?

 

Passive smoking is an exactly equivalent case, probably with a similar death rate...

Being alive uses resources the lack of which contributes directly to the disadvantages and deaths of others. Profits in the energy companies ditto. So does insisting countries export stuff they could use better themselves, including carers, doctors and nurses!

Everything you do is at the expense of someone else.

Elderly and ill people die if they're cold. Either provide a safe and equally available source of heating or let them burn what they can. Wood is growable. There's plenty of pollution about to get grumpy about, except it makes money for rich people so we don't worry about it. Particulates from wood burners are now a higher proportion of pollution as others have reduced. That's all.

[peterboat]

2 hours ago, M_JG said:

 

Did you not see the table Mr. D posted earlier?

 

 

I am alright then as I burn anthracite on my Rayburn, However well seasoned logs go on the wood burning stove. The problem with the above chart is as most of us boaters know the smokeless stuff is also heatless! It also has to be made so more pollution, so is it really better than well seasoned wood? Drax seems to be using wood pellets so in the scheme of things I suspect wood is best overall