These new log burner rules.......

[Arthur Marshall]

On 09/02/2023 at 17:49, IanD said:

If it needs spare reeds, I could always break up a surplus melodeon or two... 😉

That's ok, I've got a spare one if them, too!

[peterboat]

27 minutes ago, Cheshire cat said:

I don't agree with a lot of Peter's posts but total empathy on this

Which one please?

[IanD]

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/feb/14/wood-burning-air-pollution-uk-doubled-decade

 

The data shows that home wood burning causes 21% of PM2.5 emissions in the UK and rose by 124% between 2011 and 2021.“The increase in PM2.5 from domestic wood burning is a worrying trend that cannot continue if we are serious about protecting both the environment and public health,” said Ross Matthewman, head of policy and campaigns at the Chartered Institute of Environmental Health.“Now is the time for the UK government to regulate the sale and use of domestic solid wood burners in urban areas where there are on-grid heating alternatives,” he said. “Rather than providing heating to homes, they have become middle-class status symbols, which harm the quality of our air, damage the environment and threaten public health.”

 

You'd hope that if the government actually listens to the experts, boats -- at least, outside urban areas -- would be exempt from any restrictions. But it has to be said that their record on listening to experts and digging into the details of policy changes is not good... 😞

 

Boats with woodburners in towns are likely to be hit though because that's where the pollution problem is -- regardless of the difficulties this will cause them (no on-grid alternative), it would be politically impossible to allow them to continue burning wood while banning it in the expensive flats next to the canal...

Edited February 15, 2023 by IanD

[MtB]

28 minutes ago, IanD said:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/feb/14/wood-burning-air-pollution-uk-doubled-decade

 

The data shows that home wood burning causes 21% of PM2.5 emissions in the UK and rose by 124% between 2011 and 2021.“The increase in PM2.5 from domestic wood burning is a worrying trend that cannot continue if we are serious about protecting both the environment and public health,” said Ross Matthewman, head of policy and campaigns at the Chartered Institute of Environmental Health.“Now is the time for the UK government to regulate the sale and use of domestic solid wood burners in urban areas where there are on-grid heating alternatives,” he said. “Rather than providing heating to homes, they have become middle-class status symbols, which harm the quality of our air, damage the environment and threaten public health.”

 

You'd hope that if the government actually listens to the experts, boats -- at least, outside urban areas -- would be exempt from any restrictions. But it has to be said that their record on listening to experts and digging into the details of policy changes is not good... 😞

 

Boats with woodburners in towns are likely to be hit though because that's where the pollution problem is -- regardless of the difficulties this will cause them, it would be politically impossible to allow them to continue burning wood while banning it in the expensive flats next to the canal...

 

 

I'm still unclear about whether people burning smokeless solid fuel (coal briquettes) in their multifuel woodburners escape the objections to wood burners, or whether we are caught too.

 

Will sale and use of stoves that burn pseudo-coal still be permitted?

 

 

[IanD]

28 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I'm still unclear about whether people burning smokeless solid fuel (coal briquettes) in their multifuel woodburners escape the objections to wood burners, or whether we are caught too.

 

Will sale and use of stoves that burn pseudo-coal still be permitted?

 

 

I dug into the tables, and all other domestic fuels contributed 1/3 the PM2.5 pollution of wood in 2021, hence the focus on woodburners.

 

For comparison between fuels, I found this:

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/733368/domestic-burning-consultation-ia.pdf

 

So dried/seasoned wood is about 4x-5x worse than smokeless coal/anthracite/manufactured solid fuel -- wet wood is 4x worse again.

 

Whether this reduction is enough to allow the continued use of smokeless fuel is unknown, the problem as usual is enforcement -- it's easy saying that people mustn't burn wood, but if they have a stove capable of burning it it's difficult to actually stop them, even if they're burning smokeless when the inspectors come round... 😉

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by IanD

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

I dug into the tables, and all other domestic fuels contributed 1/3 the PM2.5 pollution of wood in 2021, hence the focus on woodburners.

 

For comparison between fuels, I found this:

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/733368/domestic-burning-consultation-ia.pdf

 

So dried/seasoned wood is about 4x-5x worse than smokeless coal/anthracite/manufactured solid fuel -- wet wood is 4x worse again.

 

Whether this reduction is enough to allow the continued use of smokeless fuel is unknown, the problem as usual is enforcement -- it's easy saying that people mustn't burn wood, but if they have a stove capable of burning it it's difficult to actually stop them, even if they're burning smokeless when the inspectors come round... 😉

 

 

 

Thank you.

 

Them figures look encouraging, especially as sale of "house coal" is now banned so only the low-scoring coal products can be obtained on the general fuel market. 

[IanD]

13 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Thank you.

 

Them figures look encouraging, especially as sale of "house coal" is now banned so only the low-scoring coal products can be obtained on the general fuel market. 

 

The figures are encouraging, and should allow the continued use of these fuels.

 

The problem will be people who ignore the rules and and carry on burning wood, because I suspect it'll always be easy to obtain off the back of a lorry, or via DIY and a chainsaw -- nothing is as cheap as this.

 

If too many people do this -- and I suspect boaters will be among the culprits, given the offgrid lifestyle of many and their reluctance to follow rules -- then a complete ban on solid-fuel stoves is likely to follow.

 

So let's hope that selfish people don't screw things up for everybody else -- though going by history on land and on the canals, I wouldn't hold out too much hope of this... 😞

Edited February 15, 2023 by IanD

[Tonka]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

 

Thank you.

 

Them figures look encouraging, especially as sale of "house coal" is now banned so only the low-scoring coal products can be obtained on the general fuel market. 

The sale of house coal in England is allowed until 1st May 2023

[Chewbacka]

I doubt they will ban stoves as the government admits they are needed by a significant number in rural areas, where emissions aren’t a problem.  What I think will happen is it will become forbidden for a dwelling/boat to emit any smoke from a stove in designated (ie urban) areas.

 

As an aside I did read recently (I forget where) that a low level of arsenic particles are being detected in urban air.  Not yet at levels to cause health issues.  Probably due to burning treated wood - pallets, packing boxes, old fencing, furniture etc.

However following the principle of no arsenic is best, this will further the pressure on councils from canal side houses to put rules in place to control ’dirty’ boats.  

 

 

[Tonka]

8 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

I doubt they will ban stoves as the government admits they are needed by a significant number in rural areas, where emissions aren’t a problem.  What I think will happen is it will become forbidden for a dwelling/boat to emit any smoke from a stove in designated (ie urban) areas.

 

As an aside I did read recently (I forget where) that a low level of arsenic particles are being detected in urban air.  Not yet at levels to cause health issues.  Probably due to burning treated wood - pallets, packing boxes, old fencing, furniture etc.

However following the principle of no arsenic is best, this will further the pressure on councils from canal side houses to put rules in place to control ’dirty’ boats.  

 

 

if only you had read the whole topic you would see it has already been mentioned

[MtB]

1 minute ago, Tonka said:

if only you had read the whole topic you would see it has already been mentioned

 

 

Few people read the whole thread before posting, once it exceeds about three pages. The same points start getting repeated over and over. 

 

Maybe someone has already said this....

 

 

 

[rusty69]

Few people read the whole thread before posting, once it exceeds about three pages. The same points start getting repeated over and over. 

 

Maybe someone has already said this....

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Tonka said:

if only you had read the whole topic you would see it has already been mentioned

 

All 14 pages?

 

I doubt it, and I dont think its fair to expect it either.

[LadyG]

From a boaters point of view, I know there is a huge difference in emissions between fast and hot burning of either fuel and slow smouldering.

 Great gulps of black smoke occasionally escape in to my cabin, most often from smoke coals which are NOT smokeless. I am pretty sure I will end up with the dreaded C due to inhalations, but I consider that it's much cleaner to use wood which is clean and dry.

 I only use smokeless, which is not smokeless, as a bed for the wood on cold days, and for overnight.

There is not sufficient education about emmissions. People regularly burn contaminated wood in open yards, some of that stuff stays in the atmosphere forever.

Edited February 15, 2023 by LadyG

[IanD]

5 minutes ago, LadyG said:

From a boaters point of view, I know there is a huge difference in emissions between fast and hot burning of either fuel and slow smouldering.

 Great gulps of black smoke occasionally escape in to my cabin, most often from smoke coals which are NOT smokeless. I am pretty sure I will end up with the dreaded C due to inhalations, but I consider that it's much cleaner to use wood which is clean and dry.

 I only use smokeless, which is not smokeless, as a bed for the wood on cold days, and for overnight.

 

 

Even if you use wood that's clean and dry and seasoned, it emits 5x as many PM2.5 particulates as smokeless fuel.

 

If that's inside the boat it's your problem, if it's in the middle of nowhere nobody else will be affected, but if you're burning wood in a town you're contributing to the increased death rates -- and this will be banned, sooner or later.

Edited February 15, 2023 by IanD

[LadyG]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

 

Even if you use wood that's clean and dry and seasoned, it emits 5x as many PM2.5 particulates as smokeless fuel.

 

If that's inside the boat it's your problem, if it's in the middle of nowhere nobody else will be affected, but if you're burning wood in a town you're contributing to the increased death rates -- and this will be banned, sooner or later.

Yes, I understand that, but if I am to take issue it is on the test results. 

If I get my stove working well it is obvious from the emmissions that there is a big difference between the actual clear emissions from smokeless fuel and the black muck that it emits when it's starting up, and this can take a long time plus firelighters.

I am sure that clusters of boaters in enclosed urban areas are going to cause local pollution, but I'm not sure what the solution is other than banning boats with stoves. Boats with diesel heating need to go for the same reason. In the end it means electric bollards. Green Bollards of course!

[IanD]

8 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Yes, I understand that, but if I am to take issue it is on the test results. 

If I get my stove working well it is obvious from the emmissions that there is a big difference between the actual clear emissions from smokeless fuel and the black muck that it emits when it's starting up, and this can take a long time plus firelighters.

I am sure that clusters of boaters in enclosed urban areas are going to cause local pollution, but I'm not sure what the solution is other than banning boats with stoves. Boats with diesel heating need to go for the same reason. In the end it means electric bollards. Green Bollards of course!

 

For PM2.5 emissions, which is what the concern is:

 

Stoves burning smokeless fuel or anthracite : x1

Stoves burning dry wood or house coal : x5

Stoves burning wet wood : x20

Stoves burning diesel : much less (0.1?)

Stoves burning gas : close to zero

 

That's once it's burning, undoubtedly there will be more when starting up -- or maybe this is included, the information isn't clear. Doesn't change the facts though...

 

I don't see how this can be made any clearer.... 😉

 

The solution will either be to only allow the burning of smokeless fuel in urban areas -- which is difficult to enforce, and likely to be flouted by bloody-minded boaters with a chainsaw -- or if this doesn't work, ban stoves entirely, at least in urban areas. Though how you can enforce that a boat with a stove -- and maybe burns wood -- that moors in the sticks doesn't come into town and do it will be tricky to say the least, so maybe just banning stoves completely is the only workable option.

 

Workable for the government that is, not the poor bloody boater... 😞

Edited February 15, 2023 by IanD

[LadyG]

33 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Even if you use wood that's clean and dry and seasoned, it emits 5x as many PM2.5 particulates as smokeless fuel.

 

If that's inside the boat it's your problem, if it's in the middle of nowhere nobody else will be affected, but if you're burning wood in a town you're contributing to the increased death rates -- and this will be banned, sooner or later.

Yes, I understand that, but if I am to take issue it is on the test results. 

If I get my stove working well it is obvious from the emmissions that there is a big difference between the actual clear emissions from smokeless fuel and the black muck that it emits when it's starting up, and this can take a long time plus firelighters.

I am sure that clusters of boaters in enclosed urban areas are going to cause local pollution, but I'm not sure what the solution is other than banning boats with stoves. Boats with diesel heating need to go for the same reason. In the end it means electric bollards. Green Bollards of course!

[Guest]

1 minute ago, LadyG said:

. Boats with diesel heating need to go for the same reason. In the end it means electric bollards. Green Bollards of course!

 

Given the particulates are significantly less with diesel how have you come to this conclusion?

[Alan de Enfield]

26 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Yes, I understand that, but if I am to take issue it is on the test results. 

If I get my stove working well it is obvious from the emmissions that there is a big difference between the actual clear emissions from smokeless fuel and the black muck that it emits when it's starting up, and this can take a long time plus firelighters.

I am sure that clusters of boaters in enclosed urban areas are going to cause local pollution, but I'm not sure what the solution is other than banning boats with stoves. Boats with diesel heating need to go for the same reason. In the end it means electric bollards. Green Bollards of course!

 

1 minute ago, LadyG said:

Yes, I understand that, but if I am to take issue it is on the test results. 

If I get my stove working well it is obvious from the emmissions that there is a big difference between the actual clear emissions from smokeless fuel and the black muck that it emits when it's starting up, and this can take a long time plus firelighters.

I am sure that clusters of boaters in enclosed urban areas are going to cause local pollution, but I'm not sure what the solution is other than banning boats with stoves. Boats with diesel heating need to go for the same reason. In the end it means electric bollards. Green Bollards of course!

 

 

Repeating it every 25 minutes doesn't make it any more 'correct'

[LadyG]

I just find it difficult to believe that wood is dirtier than that smokeless stuff.

Whenever I have to handle coal I have to wash my hands, not so with logs.

Every day I wipe over the inside of the boat with a white cloth, it is evident that the surfaces are black with soot.

Every day I empty my ash pan, the wood ash is light and clean, the coal ash looks dirty, gritty, and heavy.

From memory coal ash is acid. Wood ash is alkali, it's used to make soap.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I just find it difficult to believe that wood is dirtier than that smokeless stuff.

Whenever I have to handle coal I have to wash my hands, not so with logs.

Every day I wipe over the inside of the boat with a white cloth, it is evident that the surfaces are black with soot.

Every day I empty my ash pan, the wood ash is light and clean, the coal ash looks dirty, gritty, and heavy.

From memory coal ash is acid. Wood ash is alkali, it's used to make soap.

 

It might be difficult to believe but that doesn't make it scientifically wrong.

 

The particulates being discussed here are not visible to the naked eye and are so small they can enter human tissue.

 

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by M_JG

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I just find it difficult to believe that wood is dirtier than that smokeless stuff.

Whenever I have to handle coal I have to wash my hands, not so with logs.

Every day I wipe over the inside of the boat with a white cloth, it is evident that the surfaces are black with soot.

Every day I empty my ash pan, the wood ash is light and clean, the coal ash looks dirty, gritty, and heavy.

From memory coal ash is acid. Wood ash is alkali, it's used to make soap.

 

It is nothing to do with ash

It is nothing to do with Soot

It is nothing to do with making soap

 

IT IS ALL ABOUT PM2.5 articles that are so small you cannot see them and they clog up your lungs and give you cancer.

Edited February 15, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[ditchcrawler]

I think the councils will be hard pushed than to send you a letter. If it went to court and you defend the case asking for the evidence that you were producing harmful smoke the best they could do would be a photo and unless it was like a steam train being coaled up I think it would be hard to make it stick.

[IanD]

24 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I think the councils will be hard pushed than to send you a letter. If it went to court and you defend the case asking for the evidence that you were producing harmful smoke the best they could do would be a photo and unless it was like a steam train being coaled up I think it would be hard to make it stick.

They don't have to prove you're producing harmful smoke, all they have to prove is that you're burning a banned substance -- wood, cannabis, asbestos***, plutonium... 😉

 

*** Before anyone says "but you can't burn asbestos!", let me provide a quote from Derek Lowe's excellent blog "Things I won't work with":

 

https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/sand-won-t-save-you-time

 

"In a comment to my post on putting out fires last week, one commenter mentioned the utility of the good old sand bucket, and wondered if there was anything that would go on to set the sand on fire. Thanks to a note from reader Robert L., I can report that there is indeed such a reagent: chlorine trifluoride.

 

The compound is a stronger oxidizing agent than oxygen itself, which also puts it into rare territory. That means that it can potentially go on to “burn” things that you would normally consider already burnt to hell and gone, and a practical consequence of that is that it’ll start roaring reactions with things like bricks and asbestos tile.

 

I’ll let the late John Clark describe the stuff, since he had first-hand experience in attempts to use it as rocket fuel. From his out-of-print classic Ignition! we have:

”It is, of course, extremely toxic, but that's the least of the problem. It is hypergolic with every known fuel, and so rapidly hypergolic that no ignition delay has ever been measured. It is also hypergolic with such things as cloth, wood, and test engineers, not to mention asbestos, sand, and water-with which it reacts explosively. It can be kept in some of the ordinary structural metals-steel, copper, aluminium, etc.-because of the formation of a thin film of insoluble metal fluoride which protects the bulk of the metal, just as the invisible coat of oxide on aluminium keeps it from burning up in the atmosphere. If, however, this coat is melted or scrubbed off, and has no chance to reform, the operator is confronted with the problem of coping with a metal-fluorine fire. For dealing with this situation, I have always recommended a good pair of running shoes.”

 

P.S. I've got a PDF copy of "Ignition" if anyone wants a read, can't post it here because it's 3.5MB...

Edited February 15, 2023 by IanD