How critical is engine oil type?

[Midnight]

I use any oil as long as it's slippy.

[booke23]

8 hours ago, Tony1 said:

PS- out of interest, do beta engines insist on mineral oil, or is it only us canaline users that have to look for it?  

 

The Manual for my Beta 30 states oil should have a minimum spec of API CF with different viscosities recommended depending on temperature. (15W/40 for UK climate). It goes on to say an acceptable alternative is a semi synthetic oil with a content mix of no more than 30% synthetic oil is acceptable.  

 

It also specifically states different oil viscosities or oil types should not be mixed, and fully synthetic oil should not be used at all. 

[Tracy D'arth]

The PRM non hydraulically actuated gearboxes with numbers up to PRM125 all have a cone clutch and current recommendation is for ATF fluid as they do not use an oil cooler.

The gearboxes from PRM150 up use engine oil with an oil cooler.

 

I would not be concerned about adding say 30% semi-synthetic oil to an engine but if it worries you, delay the oil change until you can conveniently buy the correct oil.

None of these engines are going to be critical on the oil used, they are used in plant and tractors where any old type of oil will be mixed in by unconcerned users.

[Tony Brooks]

4 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

The PRM non hydraulically actuated gearboxes with numbers up to PRM125 all have a cone clutch and current recommendation is for ATF fluid as they do not use an oil cooler.

The gearboxes from PRM150 up use engine oil with an oil cooler.

 

I would not be concerned about adding say 30% semi-synthetic oil to an engine but if it worries you, delay the oil change until you can conveniently buy the correct oil.

None of these engines are going to be critical on the oil used, they are used in plant and tractors where any old type of oil will be mixed in by unconcerned users.

 

Spot on as far as I am concerned.

 

People who try to convert vehicle miles per oil change to hours in a boat seem to be unaware that canal boat diesels are unlikely to get their oil hot enough to boil off the condensation caused by piston blow by. The blow by also has more carbon particles in a diesel compared with petrol.  This means oil changes intervals are likely to be shorter but if oil sampling and testing is employed (at a cost) you can safely extend the oil change interval. I would not be worried if circumstances meant I occasionally went up to 25% over time, e specially a snow we get far less sulphuric acid in the blow by.

 

It seems  a lot of people have been taken in by long term marketing.

[Tony1]

14 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Spot on as far as I am concerned.

 

People who try to convert vehicle miles per oil change to hours in a boat seem to be unaware that canal boat diesels are unlikely to get their oil hot enough to boil off the condensation caused by piston blow by. The blow by also has more carbon particles in a diesel compared with petrol.  This means oil changes intervals are likely to be shorter but if oil sampling and testing is employed (at a cost) you can safely extend the oil change interval. I would not be worried if circumstances meant I occasionally went up to 25% over time, e specially a snow we get far less sulphuric acid in the blow by.

 

It seems  a lot of people have been taken in by long term marketing.

 

An hour ago I'd never heard of piston blow by, and now I feel relieved that the blow by issue is not as serious as I didn't know it was in the first place. 

It's an emotional rollercoaster. 

 

[Tonka]

There is a Wynnstay branch in Oswestry. They sell Morris Oil

[MtB]

3 hours ago, Midnight said:

I use any oil as long as it's slippy.

 

Oil that isn't slippy (in this context), isn't oil!

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

34 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

An hour ago I'd never heard of piston blow by, and now I feel relieved that the blow by issue is not as serious as I didn't know it was in the first place. 

It's an emotional rollercoaster. 

 

 

That illustrates the problem with this and other threads. Why should you know about engine details, oils etc. I would never claim to be an expert in much of this, but I, and others, do have lots of experience and a certain level of training in theory.  We really can't tell you to ignore a mariniser or gearbox manufacturer's recommendations, but experience and such knowledge we have suggested that some of the views expressed in such topics seem to be more "old wives tales" aided by brand marketing and bottom covering than the likely truth.

 

It makes me smile when I see people extolling the virtues of a certain oil brand. All oils available nowadays are a blend of "stuff" to make them perform to the specifications. If you look at, for example, images of Morris oils plant you will not see fractionating towers and all the other parts of a crude oil refinery, you will see loads of drums and tanks. That is because they buy in their base oils and additive packs. It is the additive pack that causes the base oil to meet the SAE and API/ACEA specifications. The same will apply to most brands. So where does the oil and additives come from? The answer is other companies who specialize in such things, so the same products are likely to be supplied to many blenders/brands. In fact, I would not be surprised if when visiting a blender like Morris Oils I did not see containers for a range of other brands being filled. There are also companies specializing in bending/filling for a range of brands (this is not specific to the lub oil industry).   This is why I am relaxed about semi-synthetic oils, the additives could, I am sure, in any oil available today, be described as synthetic (as in not base oil) and mixing brands. I would however be a bit wary about a very cheap oil from an unknown brand in case it had been recycled with more additives added. I understand the base oil molecules tend to degrade over time.

 

Once again I am more than happy if someone with real experience and expertise wants to disagree I am happy to be educated.

 

 

6 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Oil that isn't slippy (in this context), isn't oil!

 

 

 

Yes, 50 years ago a Mobile oil rep told us that Brylcream (a gents' hair dressing for you youngsters) would be fine as the oil if only you could keep it in the bearings.

[Alan de Enfield]

10 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

How often does your engine require an oil change then?

 

My Lister LPWS4 was about every 4-6 weeks from around April to October, and then no changes until the following April.

[MtB]

2 hours ago, booke23 said:

It also specifically states different oil viscosities or oil types should not be mixed, and fully synthetic oil should not be used at all. 

 

Swerving off at a tangent, what IS "synthetic oil"? What is it made from?

 

Why do we synthesise oil when there is plenty of the natural stuff around? 

 

Off now to ask Mr Goggle....

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

9 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Swerving off at a tangent, what IS "synthetic oil"? What is it made from?

 

Why do we synthesise oil when there is plenty of the natural stuff around? 

 

Off now to ask Mr Goggle....

 

 

 

Last time I googled, at least some types were still based on mineral oil so that muddies the waters somewhat.

 

From Wikipedia:

 

Synthetic oil is a lubricant consisting of chemical compounds that are artificially modified or synthesised. Synthetic lubricants can be manufactured using chemically modified petroleum components rather than whole crude oil, but can also be synthesized from other raw materials. The base material, however, is still overwhelmingly crude oil that is distilled and then modified physically and chemically. The actual synthesis process and composition of additives is generally a commercial trade secret and will vary among producers.^[1]

 

 

[MtB]

This site says in essence, mineral oil has molecules of varying sizes while synthetic is built up out of molecules all the same size.

 

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/synthetic-oil-31800

 

I've yet to find any discussion of why any engine manu would specify not to use synthetic (as seems to happen with boat engines). It seems to have no major disadvantages.

[Tony Brooks]

3 minutes ago, MtB said:

This site says in essence, mineral oil has molecules of varying sizes while synthetic is built up out of molecules all the same size.

 

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/synthetic-oil-31800

 

I've yet to find any discussion of why any engine manu would specify not to use synthetic (as seems to happen with boat engines). It seems to have no major disadvantages.

 

This is a personal view. I think it is not the oil that MIGHT (not will) cause problems, but the additives, which synthetic oils still use. They also tend to be of lower viscosities to suit modern tight tolerance performance engines, so in a wider tolerance industrial engine would be likely to give low oil pressures. Think a synthetic 0W15 compared with a mineral 15W40 or 20W50.

 

The vehicle manufacturer will also want the lowest friction they can get for performance and fuel economy, so a synthetic oil is likely to contain more anti-friction additives and in a lower specification industrial unit it seems it hinders running in and may contribute to bore glazing.

 

From a paper I was given by Lister-Petter some years ago, it seems that on low loaded engines running at low powers the cylinder wall temperatures may not be high enough to burn the oil film off, so it gets "cooked" into a sort of varnish that gets smeared all over the cylinder walls and "filling in" the honing grooves. This is glazing, and it prevents the rings making a good seal, with all that implies. From the LP paper, it seems that in our area of interest, it is the additive packs that MIGHT exacerbate the likelihood of this happening. Thus, the recommendation for lower API spec oil, because they will tend to have a smaller additive pack while fully synthetic oils are likely to have a larger one.

 

You will see there are a lot of likelys and mights in there, so nothing is fixed or even proven across all engines - even the shape of the piston crown can have an effect on the "cooking" process - so the marinisers seem to like to play safe.

 

When the BMC 1.5 was designed, the oil would typically have been an SAE 30 in API CC (if not CB) yet the majority perform happily first on 20W50 and now 15W40 in APIs that have gradually risen from CC to CE or CF, which are likely to have a much larger additive pack that the original oil. I bet loads are running on API CG or CG-4 nowadays. Maybe this is why I am fairly relaxed about the use of semi-synthetic oils in a well run in engine. I doubt one could get a fully synthetic in a suitable SAE spec.

[Eeyore]

42 minutes ago, MtB said:

This site says in essence, mineral oil has molecules of varying sizes while synthetic is built up out of molecules all the same size.

 

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/synthetic-oil-31800

 

I've yet to find any discussion of why any engine manu would specify not to use synthetic (as seems to happen with boat engines). It seems to have no major disadvantages.

A fleet of trains that I worked on during their warranty period had Mercedes engines which used a synthetic oil. The Mercedes tech support team seemed to think it was needed in order to keep the oil inside the engine! This of course makes perfect sense as you can design/specify seals to deal with oil molecules of a consistent size.

Edited January 1, 2023 by Eeyore

[MtB]

20 minutes ago, Eeyore said:

A fleet of trains that I worked on during their warranty period had Mercedes engines which used a synthetic oil. The Mercedes tech support team seemed to think it was needed in order to keep the oil inside the engine! This of course makes perfect sense as you can design/specify seals to deal with oil molecules of a consistent size.

 

Indeed, but we are discussing the opposite. Where the manu says synthetic oil most NOT be used! 

 

Tony has come up with a number of possibilities but no 'killer reason' has emerged so far. Especially not for a well-run-in engine.

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

26 minutes ago, Eeyore said:

A fleet of trains that I worked on during their warranty period had Mercedes engines which used a synthetic oil. The Mercedes tech support team seemed to think it was needed in order to keep the oil inside the engine! This of course makes perfect sense as you can design/specify seals to deal with oil molecules of a consistent size.

 

It would not surprise me if extended oil change periods did not have something to do with it as well. Trains seem more likely to be high mileage, high intensity use. Just guessing though.

[Eeyore]

24 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

It would not surprise me if extended oil change periods did not have something to do with it as well. Trains seem more likely to be high mileage, high intensity use. Just guessing though.

There is a surprisingly high percentage of idling as trains can often coast for many miles once up to speed. The effects of idling being offset against the high power demands of accelerating away from a stop. This sounds a bit like the "Italian tuneup" advice often given to boaters with smokey engines, a high power run on deep water to get everything up to correct temperature for about half an hour and alls well again. So perhaps a little synthetic is fine providing you can get it up to full working temperature once in a while?

That said, I ran my nearly new Lister LPW3 on Mobil 1. It was slightly undersized and over propped for a 62' nb, so no issues with getting it up to temperature, with the added bonus that it would idle smoothly from start up in sub zero temperature because the thinner oil didn't "gum up" the governor linkages which are internal to the engine. 

[IanD]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

Indeed, but we are discussing the opposite. Where the manu says synthetic oil most NOT be used! 

 

Tony has come up with a number of possibilities but no 'killer reason' has emerged so far. Especially not for a well-run-in engine.

 

 

It's not just the oil itself, it's the additive/dispersant packages -- with modern oils (especially fully synthetic) which have very good lubrication properties these are often chosen to keep (tiny) metal/carbon particles in suspension, which modern engines (with fine oil filters) are happy with. With older engines where the particles may be a lot bigger (and have much coarser oil filters) it's often the aim to have them settle out into the bottom of the (deep) sump instead of staying in circulation, so modern/synthetic oils are a bad idea... 😞

[Ex Brummie]

I have a Perkins 4108M in which I use Morris 10W40 Multivis which is a semi synthetic oil. Between changes, i never need to top up, whereas with generic 20/50 multigrade oils, I always had to top up with approx 1/2 to 1 litre. The used oil never feels to have any coarse bits in it and it still holds form on the dipstick.

[tree monkey]

15 hours ago, Tony1 said:

 

Thanks Brian, that's only £35 for the full 8 litres, effectively half the price of the mobil 1000 mineral oil in halfords. And there's a wilko in Oswestry, so I can do the trip on Monday. Which out of pure coincidence is also when M+S food hall is open again.

 

But just to make sure- Canaline recommend 15w-40, and this is 20w-50. Could that fairly small difference possibly represent any kind of issue?

 

 

 

There's Morgans of Oswestry, an agricultural supplier who would likely have what you need

[Alan de Enfield]

Just had a look at my Lister manual and it makes an interesting "CAUTION" comment :

 

"API-CD, API-CE, API-CF4 can inhibit the running in process in new or reconditioned engines and are NOT suitable for engines running on low-duty cycles

 

Make of that what you will.

[Tony1]

 

Thanks everyone, I've certainly picked up some really useful and interesting info from this discussion.

 

Unfortunately my queries have expanded to fuel filters. 

The fuel filter I got with the service kit (from Boatyard UK) has a hole in the rounded end, which I believe houses a hex bolt that holds it in place (and I presume can be used to bleed it). As you folks will know, the idea is to take the bolt from the existing filter and put it into the new one.

However, the fuel filter that is currently mounted on the engine doesn't have this hole, and presumably mounts by simply twisting it into place as with the oil filter. 

So because I don't have the hex bolt/drain plug, so I cant use the new filter at the moment. 

 

Does anyone know where I might get either a hex bolt drain plug to fit the new SK-48612 filter I bought, OR or a new screw in fuel filter compatible with the ALCO SP-854? 

I imagine the price of a drain plug might not be that different to the price of filter, and I would prefer the simple screw-in type if I can get one. 

Ebay or Amazon would be ideal, but I could get it delivered to a postal address if necessary. 

 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

5 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

Thanks everyone, I've certainly picked up some really useful and interesting info from this discussion.

 

Unfortunately my queries have expanded to fuel filters. 

The fuel filter I got with the service kit (from Boatyard UK) has a hole in the rounded end, which I believe houses a hex bolt that holds it in place (and I presume can be used to bleed it). As you folks will know, the idea is to take the bolt from the existing filter and put it into the new one.

However, the fuel filter that is currently mounted on the engine doesn't have this hole, and presumably mounts by simply twisting it into place as with the oil filter. 

So because I don't have the hex bolt/drain plug, so I cant use the new filter at the moment. 

 

Does anyone know where I might get either a hex bolt drain plug to fit the new SK-48612 filter I bought, OR or a new screw in fuel filter compatible with the ALCO SP-854? 

I imagine the price of a drain plug might not be that different to the price of filter, and I would prefer the simple screw-in type if I can get one. 

Ebay or Amazon would be ideal, but I could get it delivered to a postal address if necessary. 

 

 

 

 

I think that you will find that bolt is for DRAINING  any water from the filter at regular intervals. It normally goes to the bottom.

 

The BSS more or less requires a metal "bolt" but most filters come with a plastic one. If there is no "bolt" then use the one from the old filter or I find a suitable short or cut down metric set screw thread all the way to the head) with a soft washer works fine.

 

If you have a water trap before the filter somewhere along the fuel line you probably do not even need that screw, so your old filter may not have a hole.

 

Yes, all modern fuel filters are "spin on" and twist in place. Look into the large hole in the other end of the filter, and you will see the thread used for this. Incidently, remember to lightly oil, grease or apply diesel to the rubber seal before screwing into place.

Edited January 1, 2023 by Tony Brooks

[Tony1]

13 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I think that you will find that bolt is for DRAINING  any water from the filter at regular intervals. It normally goes to the bottom.

 

The BSS more or less requires a metal "bolt" but most filters come with a plastic one. If there is no "bolt" then use the one from the old filter or I find a suitable short or cut down metric set screw thread all the way to the head) with a soft washer works fine.

 

If you have a water trap before the filter somewhere along the fuel line you probably do not even need that screw, so your old filter may not have a hole.

 

Yes, all modern fuel filters are "spin on" and twist in place. Look into the large hole in the other end of the filter, and you will see the thread used for this. Incidently, remember to lightly oil, grease or apply diesel to the rubber seal before screwing into place.

 

Thanks very much Tony, and yes, there is indeed a second filter/trap on the fuel line, but I couldn't feel a drain bolt underneath that one either, so maybe you drain it by just unscrewing and emptying it periodically. I didnt get a replacement for that part in the service kit, so I'll have to go looking for something compatible. I'll get a photo of it tomorrow and see if it rings any bells with anyone.  

 

The problem I have is that the old filter doesn't have a bolt hole in its base, and so I dont have an existing bolt that I can take off and use with the new filter (and the new filter does have the hole for the hex bolt).

 

Edited January 1, 2023 by Tony1

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, Tony1 said:

 

Thanks very much Tony, and yes, there is indeed a second filter/trap on the fuel line, but I couldn't feel a drain bolt underneath that one either, so maybe you drain it by just unscrewing and emptying it periodically. I didnt get a replacement for that part in the service kit, so I'll have to go looking for something compatible. I'll get a photo of it tomorrow and see if it rings any bells with anyone.  

 

The problem I have is that the old filter doesn't have a bolt hols in it, so I dont have an existing bolt I can take off and use with the new filter (and the new filter does have the hole for the hex bolt).

 

 

If you were here I would soon fix you up with a suitable set screw. Those I have had dealings with were (I think) M8 so I suggest you go to your neatest motor factors, car spares place or even Halfords and look at their expensive "useful bits rage/Pearly Wotnots" Try to judge the size of the hole in your filter and buy the shortest  SET SCREW of the same diameter. Try it in your filter and if it screws right in without feeling it hit the filter guts buy a fibre or plastic washer for it. If you have a local chandler they will probably look in a "selection box" and do it all for you.