Boat dwellers to be able to claim the £400 energy allowance.

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Goliath said:

that is what you said and there was no need to introduce those sentiments to this otherwise quite pleasant discussion 

 

what would have been better would have been for you to say, “ oh, yes, my mistake I misread what they wrote”

but no you’d never say your wrong would you?

 

 

I'll happily say I'm wrong when I *am* wrong -- which in arguments with you which are invariably about opinions means pretty well never, because -- well, opinions not facts... 😉

 

I thought what I wrote originally was clear and -- for once -- complimentary to the NBTA. Then you picked at the scab, and off we went as usual... 😞

 

Toodle pip...

[MtB]

I can see the exact problem here. 

 

That nice Mr GOLIATH appears not to qualify. 

 

 

Hope that helps....

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 22, 2022 by MtB
Add a bit.

[Paul C]

If it really was a win for NBTA, it wouldn't say "residents of caravans and houseboats on registered sites", it would say "residents of caravans and boats"; or perhaps "residents of caravans on registered sites; and boats".

 

Having said that, I'm happy to give the benefit of the doubt and the precise details (on boat/boater status where they are not on a registered residential mooring) may not have been reflected in the government's summary statement as previously linked to. We will need to wait and see if CCers (who liveaboard), other liveaboard boaters etc are able to receive the grant or whether another obstacle (the eligibility checks they do...) prevents it.

[Alway Swilby]

I reckon a liveaboard continuous cruiser without a home mooring falls into the off grid household category. Nothing to do with houseboats or registered sites etc.

[MtB]

9 minutes ago, Alway Swilby said:

I reckon a liveaboard continuous cruiser without a home mooring falls into the off grid household category. Nothing to do with houseboats or registered sites etc.

 

Good point, but didn't the guvvermint edict say something about having a "registered address"?

[Momac]

11 minutes ago, Alway Swilby said:

I reckon a liveaboard continuous cruiser without a home mooring falls into the off grid household category. Nothing to do with houseboats or registered sites etc.

I reckon most boats with living accommodation fall into the off grid household category.

Whether any or all such boats are eligible to claim the subsidy remains to be seen.

 

 

[Arthur Marshall]

5 minutes ago, Alway Swilby said:

I reckon a liveaboard continuous cruiser without a home mooring falls into the off grid household category. Nothing to do with houseboats or registered sites etc.

An offgrid household (as in "house") has an address. Itinerant travellers are usually on recognised sites, so they have one too. I can't see how payments can be given to people without one, or if they have a c/o  address with someone who has. There could be a facility to give such people payment via CRT rather than councils, either cash or a licence reduction, which would almost make sense, except that CRT have no idea who the liveaboards are, and most won't want them to know, either. Would liveaboards on unlicensed boats qualify, and if not, why not? It's a right can of worms.

As it's only a week to January, probably best wait and find out. We'll know soon enough, but I suspect a combination of pessimism and cynicism to be the correct mindset.

[TheBiscuits]

39 minutes ago, Alway Swilby said:

I reckon a liveaboard continuous cruiser without a home mooring falls into the off grid household category. Nothing to do with houseboats or registered sites etc.

 

I don't.  They are classed as travellers for every other interaction with officialdom.

 

An off grid house is likely to have a postal address but no wires or pipes going to the grid(s).

[Momac]

26 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

 There could be a facility to give such people payment via CRT rather than councils, either cash or a licence reduction, which would almost make sense, except that CRT have no idea who the liveaboards are, and most won't want them to know, either. Would liveaboards on unlicensed boats qualify, and if not, why not? It's a right can of worms.

 

Why does reference to liveaboards keep coming up?

An empty or rarely occupied house (eg a second home used for holidays) that is connected to the mains receives the subsidy via the utility provider.

So if the government are paying a  subsidy to owners of off grid boats why does the boat have to be occupied full time ?

 

 

 

[Paul C]

20 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Why does reference to liveaboards keep coming up?

An empty or rarely occupied house (eg a second home used for holidays) that is connected to the mains receives the subsidy via the utility provider.

So if the government are paying a  subsidy to owners of off grid boats why does the boat have to be occupied full time ?

 

 

 

 

By that analogy, how about touring caravans?

[Momac]

14 minutes ago, Paul C said:

 

By that analogy, how about touring caravans?

Yes - same thing 

 

[Ianws]

Second home owners will have already accessed the £400 for each house (over 6 months). If not renting the second house out they will be benefitting as they only use power at one house at a time. The standing charge has gone up but it's the unit price that's really making a difference. 

 

The system isn't in place to deal with all the different scenarios.

 

I just hope boaters who don't liveaboard don't take the system for a ride, and those that do liveaboard get some help, continuous cruiser, leisure mooring liveaboard, whatever. 

 

It's easy to criticise people living full time on leisure moorings under the radar. I expect a fair proportion, but not everyone, would be prepared to have a residential mooring and pay council tax if the moorings weren't like hen's teeth and didn't coat a premium over other moorings. I don't know why it's like it is but guess it's something to do with marina licensing terms  restricting the number of residential moorings. 

 

 

 

 

[TheBiscuits]

8 minutes ago, Ianws said:

I don't know why it's like it is but guess it's something to do with marina licensing terms  restricting the number of residential moorings. 

 

Planning permission and council tax / business rates rules.

 

I hinted a few days ago (upthread) that I'm aware of several "under the radar" liveaboards on leisure moorings who would rather do without the £400 than have the local authority know exactly where they are living.

[Ianws]

Also, getting a bit controversial, continuous cruisers don't get all the benefits a homeowner gets but do benefit from a lot of the things council tax payers fund. CRT know who are continuous cruisers. There could be a "council tax levy" added to their licence. A portion could go go towards providing the local services they use in common with  homeowners and, given they don't access all services such as bin collection, CRT could keep a portion to go towards the rubbish, sanitary services etc  they provide for boaters. All boaters can use these services but continuous cruisers will use them more often. 

 

 

Edited December 22, 2022 by Ianws
Typos

[TheBiscuits]

2 minutes ago, Ianws said:

Also, getting a bit controversial, continuous cruisers don't get all the benefits a homeowner gets but do benefit from a lot of the things council tax payers fund. CRT know who are continuous cruisers. There could be a "council tax levy" added to their licence. A portion could go go towards providing the local services they use in common with  homeowners and, given they don't access all services such as bin collection, CRT could keep a portion to go towards the rubbish, sanitary services etc  they provide for boaters. All boaters can use these services but continuous cruisers will use them more often. 

 

By "continuous cruisers" do you mean "boats without a home mooring" or "liveaboards with or without a home mooring?"

[Arthur Marshall]

1 hour ago, MartynG said:

Why does reference to liveaboards keep coming up?

An empty or rarely occupied house (eg a second home used for holidays) that is connected to the mains receives the subsidy via the utility provider.

So if the government are paying a  subsidy to owners of off grid boats why does the boat have to be occupied full time ?

 

 

 

Should I really be able to claim this for my boat that sits on a farm mooring, empty, till I go on holiday? How much time should I be on it to be morally able to claim? Two weekends a month, like most dumping CCers (though usually less)? that's about 50 days a year.

4 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

By "continuous cruisers" do you mean "boats without a home mooring" or "liveaboards with or without a home mooring?"

That's a distinction I reckon CRT is going to make fairly soon, though divided into three, not two.

[Cheshire cat]

At the end of the day we all need to survive the winter. Do our circumstances actually matter with regard to this issue?

[MtB]

1 hour ago, MartynG said:

Why does reference to liveaboards keep coming up?

An empty or rarely occupied house (eg a second home used for holidays) that is connected to the mains receives the subsidy via the utility provider.

So if the government are paying a  subsidy to owners of off grid boats why does the boat have to be occupied full time ?

 

 

Good point. I've got two boats lying around only intermittently used these days. Does that mean £800 in the bin for doing nothing?! 

 

Doesn't seem right to me. 

 

 

[Ianws]

I already (sort of) suggested people living full time at a leisure moorings could pay council tax in return for being accepted as residential. 

 

I was suggesting everyone should pay one council tax, or an equivalent, either at their home address for leisure boaters, mooring (if people have one) or via CRT if they don't. 

 

It seems reasonable everyone should contribute and ties in with comments about what will happen when people under the radar come into open light.

 

I don't think it will happen because of  the small number of people affected and the time, expense and effort it would involve.

[Ianws]

29 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

By "continuous cruisers" do you mean "boats without a home mooring" or "liveaboards with or without a home mooring?"

This was referring to boats without a home mooring. Liveaboards with a home mooring , residental and leisure, were mentioned in my previous post.

Edited December 22, 2022 by Ianws

[Momac]

29 minutes ago, Ianws said:

Also, getting a bit controversial, continuous cruisers don't get all the benefits a homeowner gets but do benefit from a lot of the things council tax payers fund. CRT know who are continuous cruisers. There could be a "council tax levy" added to their licence. A portion could go go towards providing the local services they use in common with  homeowners and, given they don't access all services such as bin collection, CRT could keep a portion to go towards the rubbish, sanitary services etc  they provide for boaters. All boaters can use these services but continuous cruisers will use them more often. 

 

 

I really don't see why a continuous cruiser is any different to a boat with a home mooring.

Both could be owned by people who live in a house , work full time and go boating on days off and holidays. 

 

 

 

[Ianws]

I agree. I made a mistake splitting points over a couple of posts. I was basically saying everyone should pay council tax, at homeaddress if a leisure boater, at the mooring if a residential or leisure (under the radar) liveaboard, or via CRT, if a boat without a mooring. Just one council tax per household somewhere in the system. As a give back to people not currently paying council tax : people living full time on leisure moorings (currently under the radar) could be recognised with residential rights. People without a home mooring could contribute to the things we all access as citizens but, in recognition of things they don't use such a council bin collections, a proportion of their tax could go to CRT for some of the facilities they provide that boaters (not exclusively boaters with no home mooring) access, such as online waste bins, sanitary stations etc.

[Momac]

40 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Should I really be able to claim this for my boat that sits on a farm mooring, empty, till I go on holiday? How much time should I be on it to be morally able to claim? Two weekends a month, like most dumping CCers (though usually less)? that's about 50 days a year.

 

Someone  with a second home may use that home  in exactly the same way as you use your boat but they receive the subsidy.

 

Whether it is right for boats  or caravans to be treated in the same way as a  second home  is open to debate .

If boats or caravans should be considered eligible it would a nightmare to administer  as you may have already said and would certainly be open to abuse. 

 

I may be proven wrong but I don't think the amount of time the owner spends living in the boat or caravan is a factor .

 

It remains to be seen what the rules are when they are published in January.

 

[Paul C]

8 hours ago, MartynG said:

Yes - same thing 

 

 

How about tents then? Big frame tents, or small £40 things you might take to a festival? Can't you see the fraud potential???

[Jon57]

1 hour ago, Paul C said:

 

How about tents then? Big frame tents, or small £40 things you might take to a festival? Can't you see the fraud potential???

How about a shoe box in the middle of the road. 🤣🤣🤣