Boat dwellers to be able to claim the £400 energy allowance.

[Ewan123]

18 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Really lucky for all the dumpers, though. They'll get to claim the money for the house they actually live in, and an extra dollop for the boat they pretend to be continuously cruising in! Win win!

One would hope that some sort of cross-referencing of who's benefiting from each form of payment would be carried out to ensure no double payment... realistically I don't know how they would do that. I really don't envy them the job of figuring this one out! I suppose they've basically got a choice/sliding scale between spending lots of time (therefore money) on verifying people's claims and spending less time (but less money) on a less comprehensive verification process. At some point the latter end of the scale would probably cost less overall than the loss due to false claims I'd have thought. 🤷‍♀️

 

I've never had to think about proving that I am of No Fixed Abode... it's remarkably tricky! I've completed things like census, security vetting and DBS checks stating that I'm of NFA but I doubt that paper trail would really stand up to much scrutiny since it all just comes down to my word. 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Ewan123

[Arthur Marshall]

1 hour ago, Lady C said:

Perhaps not if the person's name and address exactly match those for the house but I agree it appears open to misuse.  This approach should suit boatowners with a proper residential mooring.

Both of them?!

 

2 hours ago, Lady C said:

My underlying thought is that either the government don't want to recognise boat dwellers who do not fit the houseboat certificate criterion or else they simply don't understand.    

Without the houseboat criterion, how do you cut out the scammers? You might just as well give it to everyone who owns a boat, liveaboard, pretend CC or not. Once it becomes obvious to our lords and masters that most people who claim to CC are doing nothing of the sort, I suspect a lot of licence conditions may change, especially if they now all put their heads above the parapet to try to claim some free money.

No government minds handing out money to it's wealthy mates, but it really doesn't like doing it to what it sees as scroungers at the bottom end.

1 hour ago, Lady C said:

 

 

2 hours ago, Lady C said:

 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Arthur Marshall

[nbfiresprite]

2 hours ago, IanD said:

 

The devil is in the details -- it doesn't say "boats with a registered mooring", it says "houseboats on registered sites". Which presumably means very few boaters, certainly not CCers or Cers, and not even non-houseboats with a home mooring... 😞

 

 

I contacted the Department and asked What was defined as a 'registered site'? Answer was a site address that was on the Council tax valuation and the Royal Mail address databases.

[doratheexplorer]

15 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Both of them?!

 

Without the houseboat criterion, how do you cut out the scammers? You might just as well give it to everyone who owns a boat, liveaboard, pretend CC or not. Once it becomes obvious to our lords and masters that most people who claim to CC are doing nothing of the sort, I suspect a lot of licence conditions may change, especially if they now all put their heads above the parapet to try to claim some free money.

No government minds handing out money to it's wealthy mates, but it really doesn't like doing it to what it sees as scroungers at the bottom end.

 

Some good points.  I have to wonder if all the liveaboard CCers come forward for the money, it will create a very handy database from which to look at levying some kind of council tax payment.

[LadyG]

4 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Some good points.  I have to wonder if all the liveaboard CCers come forward for the money, it will create a very handy database from which to look at levying some kind of council tax payment.

A bit tricky either to administer, or to justify.

I pay CRT for water supplied, and for sewage disposal among other things.

I move about, so I can't be charged any sort of Council Tax.

 

[nbfiresprite]

3 minutes ago, LadyG said:

A bit tricky either to administer, or to justify.

I pay CRT for water supplied, and for sewage disposal among other things.

I move about, so I can't be charged any sort of Council Tax.

 

It would be following in the footsteps of more than 40 countries around the world which have introduced a form of daily visitor levy for overnight stays, including Greece, France, Amsterdam, Barcelona, and the US state of California. You should ask Tower Hamlets, Hackney, Camden and Islington councils how much that it is costing them to provide services to these moored on the towpath in their areas.

[doratheexplorer]

26 minutes ago, LadyG said:

A bit tricky either to administer, or to justify.

I pay CRT for water supplied, and for sewage disposal among other things.

I move about, so I can't be charged any sort of Council Tax.

 

If the government decides to tax you for use of local services, they'll do it.  Moving about won't come into it.

 

The reality is we all use/ benefit from services paid for out of council tax, directly from street lighting, road maintenance, police, fire service etc.  And also indirectly e.g. education, bin collection etc.  (I don't have any school age children but I'm glad those who do have them educated.  My bins aren't collected by the Council, but I'm pleased that our streets aren't 6ft deep in rubbish).

 

Morally, CCers should not be exempt from contributing to the provision of locally funded services.

[MtB]

44 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Some good points.  I have to wonder if all the liveaboard CCers come forward for the money, it will create a very handy database from which to look at levying some kind of council tax payment.

 

AND... they could make it a special reduced rate for boaters.

 

Something like, oh I dunno, perhaps... £400 a year?

 

[Alan de Enfield]

53 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Some good points.  I have to wonder if all the liveaboard CCers come forward for the money, it will create a very handy database from which to look at levying some kind of council tax payment.

 

Surely C&RT already have a database of "CCers" as a CCer is simply a boat without a home mooring and that declaration is on their licence application.

 

Thre is a difference between a CCer and a Liveaboard, whilst a Liveaboard is quite likely to be a CCer, not all CCers are Liveaboards.

 

What is needed is a database of liveaboard (or non-liveaboard) CCers to avoid double pay-outs - maybe another question on the licence application ?

[MtB]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Thre is a difference between a CCer and a Liveaboard, whilst a Liveaboard is quite likely to be a CCer, not all CCers are Liveaboards.

 

And just to complete the confusion, not all liveaboards are CCers. Plenty have home moorings. 

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, MtB said:

 

And just to complete the confusion, not all liveaboards are CCers. Plenty have home moorings. 

 

 

But liveaboards having registered as having a home mooring are not CCers and can claim (possibly) for the grant because they have a residential mooring - those bucking the system and living on leisure moorings, deserve what they will get.

[doratheexplorer]

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Surely C&RT already have a database of "CCers" as a CCer is simply a boat without a home mooring and that declaration is on their licence application.

 

Thre is a difference between a CCer and a Liveaboard, whilst a Liveaboard is quite likely to be a CCer, not all CCers are Liveaboards.

 

What is needed is a database of liveaboard (or non-liveaboard) CCers to avoid double pay-outs - maybe another question on the licence application ?

CRT don't set taxes and GDPR would likely prevent them sharing what they know.  Also, I'd dispute that liveaboards are likely to be CCers.  Do you have any data to back that up, bearing in mind that the majority of stationary liveaboards do so under the radar?

[MtB]

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

But liveaboards having registered as having a home mooring are not CCers and can claim (possibly) for the grant because they have a residential mooring - those bucking the system and living on leisure moorings, deserve what they will get.

 

I'm not entirely sure why ANYONE off grid deserves the £400.  Their fuel cost rises are trivial compared to the rises inflicted on households on mains gas and leccy

[doratheexplorer]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

But liveaboards having registered as having a home mooring are not CCers and can claim (possibly) for the grant because they have a residential mooring - those bucking the system and living on leisure moorings, deserve what they will get.

Bit harsh, what about liveaboards who have leisure moorings, but also cruise extensively so that they don't exceed the number of nights they're allowed to stay on their mooring?

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, doratheexplorer said:

Also, I'd dispute that liveaboards are likely to be CCers

 

The subject in discussion was CCers which is what my rely refferred to.

 

For boaters who have declared a home mooring and livebaord my reply to MtB :

 

 

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

But liveaboards having registered as having a home mooring are not CCers and can claim (possibly) for the grant because they have a residential mooring - those bucking the system and living on leisure moorings, deserve what they will get.

 

[doratheexplorer]

1 minute ago, MtB said:

 

I'm not entirely sure why ANYONE off grid deserves the £400.  Their fuel cost rises are trivial compared to the rises inflicted on households on mains gas and leccy

I very much doubt they'll get anything like £400.  They'll get some fraction of that based on what they've spent on fuel.

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The subject in discussion was CCers which is what my rely refferred to.

 

For boaters who have declared a home mooring and livebaord my reply to MtB :

 

 

 

And I've already pointed out the hole in your logic.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, doratheexplorer said:

Bit harsh, what about liveaboards who have leisure moorings, but also cruise extensively so that they don't exceed the number of nights they're allowed to stay on their mooring?

 

 

Thats a good point but in my defence I have never met any.

Some marinas limit staying on board to 12 nights a year, others are a maximum of "1 day less that the number of days in the month" (ie one night per month the boater - not necessarily the boat - must leave the marina)

[Ewan123]

1 minute ago, doratheexplorer said:

I very much doubt they'll get anything like £400.  They'll get some fraction of that based on what they've spent on fuel.

There has been no suggestion that the payment will be adjusted according to a person's usage, probably because of the even greater administrative burden that would create. Every communication to date, regarding off-grid etc, has been referring to a single wodge of money. Though I will concede that there's every chance the next communication might totally contradict everything previous.

[David Mack]

3 hours ago, Lady C said:

My underlying thought is that either the government don't want to recognise boat dwellers who do not fit the houseboat certificate criterion or else they simply don't understand.    

Or that in terms of the bigger picture, the number of boat dwellers is insignificant, so all the initial effort was put into developing a simple system for the vast majority of households, with special processes then having to be developed for the minority. And as such processes are developed the variety of individual circumstances and the range of process options that are needed to cope with them all in a fair manner becomes more apparent.

From an administrative point of view developing more and more processes for ever smaller groups of non-standard households gives diminishing returns on an increased amount of work, yet requirements for fairness and fraud prevention mean quite a lot of effort nevertheless needs to be put into the few most awkward cases. Even so, there will come a point where it is easier to accept that some will miss out on the support and others may get more than their entitlement since it is just too difficult to catch every case with the rules.

[MtB]

1 minute ago, David Mack said:

Or that in terms of the bigger picture, the number of boat dwellers is insignificant, so all the initial effort was put into developing a simple system for the vast majority of households, with special processes then having to be developed for the minority. And as such processes are developed the variety of individual circumstances and the range of process options that are needed to cope with them all in a fair manner becomes more apparent.

From an administrative point of view developing more and more processes for ever smaller groups of non-standard households gives diminishing returns on an increased amount of work, yet requirements for fairness and fraud prevention mean quite a lot of effort nevertheless needs to be put into the few most awkward cases. Even so, there will come a point where it is easier to accept that some will miss out on the support and others may get more than their entitlement since it is just too difficult to catch every case with the rules.

 

Quite so. And given the microscopic number of disgruntled Tory voters likely to be amongst liveaboards of all flavours who might switch allegiance away from the Conservatives if they miss out on the £400, I'm amazed those in power can be bothered with us at all.

 

 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

4 hours ago, Lady C said:

My underlying thought is that either the government don't want to recognise boat dwellers who do not fit the houseboat certificate criterion or else they simply don't understand.    

They don’t want to understand. 
 

 

 

[Lady M]

You may well be right.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

9 minutes ago, Lady C said:

You may well be right.

I dunno, hard to know what they think, if they think at all. 
 

I do think there are one or two on here who think they are more deserving than others. 
 

An allowance/handout for heating/bills/whatever should be inclusive to all. That’s what I think 🤔 

 

 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

I now understand not only will itinerant boaters without a fixed address be able to claim for Energy Bill Support, but so will caravan and vehicle dwellers 👍👍

Happy New Year 🎉

[LadyG]

5 hours ago, doratheexplorer said:

If the government decides to tax you for use of local services, they'll do it.  Moving about won't come into it.

 

The reality is we all use/ benefit from services paid for out of council tax, directly from street lighting, road maintenance, police, fire service etc.  And also indirectly e.g. education, bin collection etc.  (I don't have any school age children but I'm glad those who do have them educated.  My bins aren't collected by the Council, but I'm pleased that our streets aren't 6ft deep in rubbish).

 

Morally, CCers should not be exempt from contributing to the provision of locally funded services.

I'm buying food locally, had a super pub lunch today, contributing in that way. Just spending cash locally helps everyone. There is only so much discretionary spend, if I had to pay for mooring, I'd cut back on eating out, and butcher meat etc. 

And then I'd probably sell up.

I can still remember having to pay for moorings in Rothesay Bay.  I never went back. So for the sake of a fiver, paid to one local, the town lost out on maybe fifty pounds spent every Friday night from April to September.

Edited December 20, 2022 by LadyG
piundsfromm