Things to look for in a share boat

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, haggis said:

The share agreement is all important. 

 

Indeed it is. but the "enforcement" (if you want to call it that) can be very difficult - what sanctions can youi apply to another 'owner' ?

 

We were all agreed that we did not want to pay a company (and allow them to make a living off us) for something that we could do ourselves. Had ALL of the owmers been honest about their planned comitment levels we'd never have formd the syndicate.

 

Never go into 'business' with family or friends !

[haggis]

I think if someone had entered an agreement with me and others and was not meeting his obligations I would have no hesitation in seeking the support of other owners , especially if I was affected financially

 Perhaps not so easy to do with friends and family though. 

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Never go into 'business' with family or friends !

 

Very good advice. I've only ever done it once and it ended in tears and a wrecked friendship.

 

Were I to buy a share in a boat I'd require the syndicate to be obliged to buy my share back in were I to decide to leave, and all the other shares to benefit from a similar clause. Also, when selling a share to an outsider, I'd require the syndicate to have the right to veto the sale. 

 

This would be to protect myself from finding myself stuck in a syndicate with new part-owners whose views on running the boat I disagree with, and who can impose their views on me. 

 

[BEngo]

2 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Very good advice. I've only ever done it once and it ended in tears and a wrecked friendship.

 

Were I to buy a share in a boat I'd require the syndicate to be obliged to buy my share back in were I to decide to leave, and all the other shares to benefit from a similar clause. Also, when selling a share to an outsider, I'd require the syndicate to have the right to veto the sale. 

 

This would be to protect myself from finding myself stuck in a syndicate with new part-owners whose views on running the boat I disagree with, and who can impose their views on me. 

 

This looks fine on the face of it, but a bit of reductio ( though not ad  absurdum)  has one share owner eventually being forced to buy out all the others.

Also, where does the syndicate's money come from to buy out a leaving share owner?  Not all members will have the readies to cough up for part of another share so either the sinking fund ( there is one, isn't  there?) takes the strain or the share must be sold.

 

N

 

 

[MtB]

16 minutes ago, BEngo said:

This looks fine on the face of it, but a bit of reductio ( though not ad  absurdum)  has one share owner eventually being forced to buy out all the others.

Also, where does the syndicate's money come from to buy out a leaving share owner?  Not all members will have the readies to cough up for part of another share so either the sinking fund ( there is one, isn't  there?) takes the strain or the share must be sold.

 

N

 

Totally agree.

 

Such problems are partly why I never bought a share in a share boat, but scraped and struggled and borrowed to buy my own whole boat. 

 

That, and the knowledge that owning the whole boat allowed me to populate it with my own possessions, food, clothes, bedding etc so it was (is) 'home from home' whenever I turn up to use it. This aspect never seems to get discussed. 

[churchward]

26 minutes ago, BEngo said:

This looks fine on the face of it, but a bit of reductio ( though not ad  absurdum)  has one share owner eventually being forced to buy out all the others.

Also, where does the syndicate's money come from to buy out a leaving share owner?  Not all members will have the readies to cough up for part of another share so either the sinking fund ( there is one, isn't  there?) takes the strain or the share must be sold.

 

N

 

 

Quite, to be exposed to the risk of being personally responsible as the last man standing to buy all the shares is not a good position.  Some things make sense in the head but legally have (possibly) unintended bad consequences.

 

This kind of thing is a decent argument for being in a share that is managed through a professional management company. The contracts can be better written and enforced. It is more expensive in turns of the management overhead and maintenance running costs if they are also managed by the management company but it is likely to be worth it due to the extra security it brings.  It is important that the agreement with the management company and the shares are truly held in the individual's name so that there is no ambiguity about who owns the boat in the event of the management company going bust and who has liability for outstanding debt.

Edited July 9, 2023 by churchward

[Rob-M]

4 minutes ago, MtB said:

knowledge that owning the whole boat allowed me to populate it with my own possessions, food, clothes, bedding etc so it was (is) 'home from home' whenever I turn up to use it

That is what I think, we turn up at odd times knowing that our boat is ready to use with the bed made, our clothes on board and our food in the cupboard.  Watching share boat owners unload all their personal items when they leave the boat makes me glad we never went down the shared ownership route.

[MtB]

1 minute ago, Rob-M said:

That is what I think, we turn up at odd times knowing that our boat is ready to use with the bed made, our clothes on board and our food in the cupboard.  Watching share boat owners unload all their personal items when they leave the boat makes me glad we never went down the shared ownership route.

 

Not only that, but I have a kitchen drawer full of string, spanners, pens, endless utensils like spud mashers, tin openers, ultra-sharp knives, egg whisks, garlic presses, spud masher and all that stuff, just like at home in the hovel. Lurvely, so I can cook stuff on the bote just like at home. Truly home from home. (Did I say that already?)

[churchward]

6 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Totally agree.

 

Such problems are partly why I never bought a share in a share boat, but scraped and struggled and borrowed to buy my own whole boat. 

 

That, and the knowledge that owning the whole boat allowed me to populate it with my own possessions, food, clothes, bedding etc so it was (is) 'home from home' whenever I turn up to use it. This aspect never seems to get discussed. 

I mentioned above that sharing boats (or owning one's own boat) has advantages and disadvantages. As you point out one disadvantage of a share is that you cannot store/leave any of your own equipment on the boat whereas one can on your own boat.

 

However, for many people, a share scheme can be a really good answer to getting more time on the cut for less money than it would take to hire and not have the large capital outlay of buying a boat for oneself and if working only use a few weeks a year.

 

Although I should say that we bought our boat while I still worked after selling our share in a boat (which we enjoyed greatly) and one advantage there was we could use the boat as a weekend holiday cottage even if we did not go out anywhere it was a nice stress reliever and change of scene.

 

I can see the good and the bad of both situations and I have no regrets the time using a share boat or indeed buying our own boat.  Both situations served and serve us well.

[ditchcrawler]

21 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

That is what I think, we turn up at odd times knowing that our boat is ready to use with the bed made, our clothes on board and our food in the cupboard.  Watching share boat owners unload all their personal items when they leave the boat makes me glad we never went down the shared ownership route.

Do you go to your boat more than 4 times a year? I had a share while I was working, it cost me half what it would to hire and I didn't have the time available to make it worth buying. Now I have my own boat my fixed costs are greater than what the share was costing me,

[David Mack]

31 minutes ago, churchward said:

Quite, to be exposed to the risk of being personally responsible as the last man standing to buy all the shares is not a good position.  Some things make sense in the head but legally have (possibly) unintended bad consequences.

You could still write into the share agreement  something to the effect that if the number of shareholders falls to (say) 6 the share arrangement must end, the boat sold and the proceeds divided between the remaining share owners.

[DandV]

A variation I have seen used for a shared holiday property was that the syndicate, actually a trust,  had a set termination date upon which the default position was the asset was to be sold. This was unless another  unanimous agreement was put in place. In the case I am aware of instead of selling,  a couple of shareholders dropped out after agreeing a termination value, another joined, and a new terminating agreement was put in place. 

It was probably easier for real estate, because of already recognised industry valuation  procedures and the presence of registered property  valuers.

[Rob-M]

7 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

Do you go to your boat more than 4 times a year? I had a share while I was working, it cost me half what it would to hire and I didn't have the time available to make it worth buying. Now I have my own boat my fixed costs are greater than what the share was costing me,

I am able to work from the boat so we spend a lot of time on it so it isn't just used for holidays.  We have always used it roughly every other weekend when Mrs-M used to work.  I used to use it for overnight stops as well when traveling for work when the boat was a convenient half way point.

I know the costs of owning are greater than having a share but I prefer the flexibility of owning and not having to cart car loads of stuff around each time we go to the boat.

[IanD]

9 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Not only that, but I have a kitchen drawer full of string, spanners, pens, endless utensils like spud mashers, tin openers, ultra-sharp knives, egg whisks, garlic presses, spud masher and all that stuff, just like at home in the hovel. Lurvely, so I can cook stuff on the bote just like at home. Truly home from home. (Did I say that already?)

I guess you really like spuds then, having at least three mashers... 😉

Edited July 10, 2023 by IanD

[haggis]

When we had a share in a boat it had a better equipped galley than I have at home! There seemed to be a need for casseroles of every size and pots and pans abundant. The owners did decide that certain items were left on board and we all just renewed them as required - loo rolls, washing up liquid etc but again we tended to end up with several brands of everything as folk had their favourites. Having a share suited us when we were both working but it is, as others have said, nice to be able to leave your stuff on board and know it will be there when you go back.  Also, we know that all the scrapes on our boat were put on by us and not by another owner who had a more cavalier attitude to care of the boat.  

[churchward]

10 hours ago, David Mack said:

You could still write into the share agreement  something to the effect that if the number of shareholders falls to (say) 6 the share arrangement must end, the boat sold and the proceeds divided between the remaining share owners.

Yes, one could but that is different from saying the remaining members/shareholders must buy out a leaving one.  A clause in the event of the syndicate becoming non-viable with low members or other reasons and as a consequence for the boat to be sold is reasonable and does not put the burden upon the remaining member(s) to keep everything going or the whole financial risk.

[Hotspur]

Apologies for reviving an old thread; I find it better that creating a new thread that follows a similar question.

.…..

On this basis, do syndicates tend to keep minutes of their AGMs?

Usually, but access to them is likely to be limited to owners.

 

Also, what is the policy about letting family members etc use the boat?

The syndicate agreement will often require users to be named on a schedule as authorised users.  Some may also require the owner to be onboard at all times and/or authorised users to show evidence of their experience of handling narrowboat.
 

When the boat is handed from one owner to the other, in the way hire car companies do, do shareholders tend to do a visual inspection and note down any defects etc they find, reporting them before the weeks cruising begins?

It is usually expected that the previous user leaves the boat clean and tidy inside and out, fuelled, watered and pumped out.  Minor repairs/paint touch up etc. are often undertaken by the owners.  Defects should be noted.  Managed schemes have handover/turn around forms for this purpose.

 

I have been an owner with two managed syndicates and it has worked for me with 4+ weeks each year.  You must however accept that personal items/bedding have to be transported to and from the boat each time.  When considering a share think about when you would like your weeks.  One per season or two weeks in the summer and then one in spring/autumn and one winter?  Can you be flexible?  Also consider how weeks are allocated each year, list/draw/fixed or other system. Each syndicate can be different even with a management co. involved.

 

More details of managed schemes can be found on the BCBM, Carefree Cruising and other websites.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Hotspur

[Hudds Lad]

19 hours ago, granary_bread said:

Apologies for reviving an old thread; I find it better that creating a new thread that follows a similar question.

 

I currently hire a boat once a year, but will be looking to increase that in the next five or so years.

 

(I actually have an opportunity to take on a 72ft Colecraft trad with lister JP2M engine, but that's way too much for me in many respects!)

 

Reading through this thread, it seems that private syndicates are the way to go, IF you strike lucky with a good bunch of shareholders. 

On this basis, do syndicates tend to keep minutes of their AGMs? My thinking is that by seeing previous minutes, I could sniff out any trivialities that end up taking centre stage, serving as a warning of what may come. 

 

Also, what is the policy about letting family members etc use the boat? If I'm going to own something, I'd prefer it not to be 'let' to people who effectively have no accountability. 

When the boat is handed from one owner to the other, in the way hire car companies do, do shareholders tend to do a visual inspection and note down any defects etc they find, reporting them before the weeks cruising begins? 

Just to point out first off, we were in a privately managed syndicate consisting of 12 shares, each share got 4 weeks a year, two high season, two low. Weeks were picked by owners each year. Top of list picked two high, one low, then passed booking sheet to next on list to do the same. When list got to bottom that owner picked one more low season week then passed it back up. Each year your position in the list moved two places up. Horse trading to swap weeks between members was allowed.

We held an AGM each year, with one member acting as chairman, one as secretary, one in charge of finances and one in charge of maintenance. These positions were voted on each year but rarely changed in the five years we were members.

You could sell your share to whoever you wanted, at whatever price you wanted. Only stipulation was all shares had to be offered to the syndicate first for 28 days.

 

do syndicates tend to keep minutes of their AGMs?

Ours did, but bear in mind these will usually cover the discussion in broad strokes, "member said this, decided to do this, agreed to do that" not the complete transcript. When we sold we made them available to the prospective buyer so they knew what they were getting into.

 

what is the policy about letting family members etc use the boat?

All depends on the specific syndicate agreement. IIRC our agreement was only with an owner onboard, in practice some let their extended family use it on their weeks which was obvious when you got there for your week and things were not left as they should be. Eg. empty water or fuel, full toilet tank, dirty interior etc. You knew who'd had it previously so could narrow it down to sort out/complain. We once turned up to find both waste tanks full and white dog hair everywhere.

 

When the boat is handed from one owner to the other, in the way hire car companies do, do shareholders tend to do a visual inspection and note down any defects etc they find, reporting them before the weeks cruising begins?

Again, down to agreement. Ours was to be left with full diesel, waste tanks emptied, water full or full enough to get to nearest water point, fire cleaned out, boat cleaned, pots/pans/cutlery cleaned. Ships log to be completed daily, any problems to be listed on end of cruise report. This was useful when at a marina where we had a service agreement as 95% of things were sorted before you arrived, not so much when we moved to a marina with no onsite workshop and all maintenance was down to the syndicate. We always tried to let the next shareholder know of any problems before they arrived, not everyone did this.

 

 

A private syndicate lives or dies with its members, you will have no control over this. Some you'll get on with, some you won't. Some will be flexible, some won't. Some will treat it as their own boat and look after it, some will treat it as a holiday let and want to do nothing. You won't really know this until you're a paid up member.

I know this sounds a bit gloomy, but to be honest we had some great times on that boat and it made us realise we wanted to go further and have our own boat. Some of the other members are also why we wanted our own boat