CRT training vlockies today, wrongly

[Wanderer Vagabond]

12 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I think you are intentionally exagerating and not actually repeating the information I have posted previously.

 

1) I have NEVER suffered an engine failure within the draw of dangerous weirs.

2) I have never had to deploy an anchor 'in anger' on a river or canal (but have practiced and demonstrated its use quite a few times)

3) I have assisted a few times in rescuing boats that have had engine failures upstream of dangerous weirs (one that killed 10 Paratroopers when their boat was SWEPT over the weir (but you'll probably label that as fake news)

4) I have towed away a boat whose anchor was dragging and who was within a 100 yards of the weir.

 

Just because it hasn't happened to you, doesn't mean it never happens. Have you actually spent much time on some of the big Rivers, such as the Trent, Humber, Ouse  that have a 'flow' ?

In answer to you final point first, yes, I have spent time on the Severn,Trent,Thames and Ouse, I wouldn't take it on the Humber because mine is an inland waterway narrow boat, not a boat to be taken to Hull for any reason.

 

Your anecdotes suggest that assistance by other boaters is indeed the way to go in preference to anchorage. In your example 4, had the boat concerned had a super-duper anchor that had held it, how would they have retrieved it? I don't know about yours, but my narrow boat hasn't got a winch, unlike lumpy water boats. So assuming that he/she had been able to fix whatever the problem was, the only way they are going to get moving again is by cutting the anchor warp ending out with no anchor at all. If the anchor is good enough to hold an 18 ton narrow boat in a decent current, there are few of us who will be strong enough to be able to recover it.

[peterboat]

49 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

In answer to you final point first, yes, I have spent time on the Severn,Trent,Thames and Ouse, I wouldn't take it on the Humber because mine is an inland waterway narrow boat, not a boat to be taken to Hull for any reason.

 

Your anecdotes suggest that assistance by other boaters is indeed the way to go in preference to anchorage. In your example 4, had the boat concerned had a super-duper anchor that had held it, how would they have retrieved it? I don't know about yours, but my narrow boat hasn't got a winch, unlike lumpy water boats. So assuming that he/she had been able to fix whatever the problem was, the only way they are going to get moving again is by cutting the anchor warp ending out with no anchor at all. If the anchor is good enough to hold an 18 ton narrow boat in a decent current, there are few of us who will be strong enough to be able to recover it.

You drive over the anchor to free it, then pull it up, if single handed its going to be difficult I know. The other problem is you have to have enough power to do it!

[IanD]

6 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Simply that IanD is having a new sooper-dooper hi-tec top of the range everything fitted Narrowboat but has gone for the cheaper, lower performing version anchor of a very high performance model by the same manufacturer.

The time a NB needs to anchor it is "brown trouser time", and the anchor needs to work 1st time every time and bring 20 tonne to an emergency stop - saving a couple of £100 seems to be false economy when the anchor could save the loss of a £100,000 / £150,000 new boat.

 

Hang on, wasn't it you who said recently that the Fortress was far too expensive, and there were cheaper/better anchors available?

 

In spite of the fact that you previously said that holding and setting power was the #1 priority in a rare emergency -- but though the Fortress won on this, you discounted it because it might get bent on a turning tide while moored on the Thames? (ignoring the fact that if it did this while saving your boat, Fortress will replace any damaged bits for free...)

 

AFAIK the cost saving on the Guardian is by missing out anodising (not needed for canals) and adjustable angle (ditto), the result is a cheaper (but still expensive) lightweight anchor (both of which you said were good things) with the same holding power, just as suitable for a narrowboat.

 

It seems to me that you keep on making self-contradictory arguments just to try and show that you know better than other posters -- for example, how often you've moored in a 5 knot current off Spurn Point is in no way relevant to the topic being discussed, nor is how effectively an anchor holds off a rocky lee shore in a gale. The requirements for a narrowboat are very different to your catamaran... 😉

Edited August 25, 2022 by IanD

[Alan de Enfield]

10 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

I don't know about yours, but my narrow boat hasn't got a winch, unlike lumpy water boats. So assuming that he/she had been able to fix whatever the problem was, the only way they are going to get moving again is by cutting the anchor warp ending out with no anchor at all. If the anchor is good enough to hold an 18 ton narrow boat in a decent current, there are few of us who will be strong enough to be able to recover it.

 

You do not winch the anchor in by pulling the boat.

 

 

Once your engine has started, or you have the tow connected the boat is driven forward and you either 'hand ball' or use the windlass to pull up the slack, once the boat is vertically over the anchor, another slight forward movement will break the anchor out and it can then be hand-balled into the boat with only the weight of the anchor and a couple of metres of chain - you shouldn't be loading the windlass with the total weight of the chain, the load of the boat and trying to break out the anchor.

 

When you were at sea - surely you didn't use the windlass to pull the boat forward and then keep it running until it broke the anchor out ?

There lies madness and damage to the boat.

 

There is an even simpler way (although not ideal for narrow rivers) called the 'Alderney Ring', this involves no effort from the boater and it works with no windlass, (even when single handed) by bringing the anchor alongside the boat on the surface.

[haggis]

13 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Once your engine has started, or you have the tow connected the boat is driven forward and you either 'hand ball' or use the windlass to pull up the slack, once the boat is vertically over the anchor, another slight forward movement will break the anchor out and it can then be hand-balled into the boat with only the weight of the anchor and a couple of metres of chain - you shouldn't be loading the windlass with the total weight of the chain, the load of the boat and trying to break out the anchor.

 

I think you have forgotten since you left the inland waterways that few, if any, canal boats have a windlass for use with an anchor.  🙂 

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, haggis said:

I think you have forgotten since you left the inland waterways that few, if any, canal boats have a windlass for use with an anchor.  🙂 

 

 

No I have not - that is why I said to 'hand-ball' the anchor chain. Admittedly more difficult for a single hander.

 

20 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Once your engine has started, or you have the tow connected the boat is driven forward and you either 'hand ball' or use the windlass to pull up the slack,

 

 

I never had a NB with a windlass.

[Wanderer Vagabond]

43 minutes ago, haggis said:

I think you have forgotten since you left the inland waterways that few, if any, canal boats have a windlass for use with an anchor.  🙂 

That is essentially where the problem lies. When you are talking about 18 tons of narrowboat, which is heavier that most offshore sailing yachts with proper anchors, whatever anchor you carry on a narrowboat is going to be a poor compromise. To hold a narrowboat against a current you are going to need an anchor that is so heavy, particularly when weighed down with several extra kilos of mud when you try to haul it up, that most of us are going to fail in the attempt. I carry much the same anchor as most other narrow boats on the canals (I think is it weighs 14 kilos, so 20 kilos with mud), but accepting that it is unlikely to solidly hold the boat in an emergency since anchoring isn't something regularly done with a narrow boat (unless crossing the Wash). I have no facility to hang the anchor over the bows (as is done with offshore boats) so it has to be a folding anchor that I can store on the boat. All I'd be able to say to my insurers if the boat was lost was ,"I tried my best".

[MtB]

A better idea is to boat carefully and thoughtfully, maintain your boat and not get in the position where you need an anchor in the first place. 

[Arthur Marshall]

40 minutes ago, MtB said:

A better idea is to boat carefully and thoughtfully, maintain your boat and not get in the position where you need an anchor in the first place. 

As I'm singlehanding, and even if the anchor is out of the gas locker and on a rope, which it only is on rivers, I'd have to get from the blunt end to the pointy bit to deploy it, by which time I imagine I'd have sunk. It's the most useless piece of equipment on the boat.

I mostly avoid needing it by sticking to canals and only going on rivers when absolutely necessary. Last trip I left it at the mooring.

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

As I'm singlehanding, and even if the anchor is out of the gas locker and on a rope, which it only is on rivers, I'd have to get from the blunt end to the pointy bit to deploy it, by which time I imagine I'd have sunk. It's the most useless piece of equipment on the boat.

I mostly avoid needing it by sticking to canals and only going on rivers when absolutely necessary. Last trip I left it at the mooring.

 

 

The way I overcame that (with the NB) was to run the chain from the bow along the roof and have the anchor sat in a bucket at the stern - no need to leave the helm (although if you have no propulsion / engine / gear box / drive there is not a lot you can do from the helm anyway).

[Clodi]

I always keep the anchor ready with the chain led back to the stern. I use a Danforth type & I have a light nylon line attached to the  heel of the anchor with a float on the other end. The only time I needed to deploy the anchor, thankfully not on my own personal boat, we simply cut the rope once the problem was resolved. Then the next day managed to retrieve the anchor using a borrowed dinghy.

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Clodi said:

I always keep the anchor ready with the chain led back to the stern. I use a Danforth type & I have a light nylon line attached to the  heel of the anchor with a float on the other end. The only time I needed to deploy the anchor, thankfully not on my own personal boat, we simply cut the rope once the problem was resolved. Then the next day managed to retrieve the anchor using a borrowed dinghy.

 

Yes - it really is a non-issue but some folks like to make a mountain out of a molehill.

[Naughty Cal]

14 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

In answer to you final point first, yes, I have spent time on the Severn,Trent,Thames and Ouse, I wouldn't take it on the Humber because mine is an inland waterway narrow boat, not a boat to be taken to Hull for any reason.

 

Your anecdotes suggest that assistance by other boaters is indeed the way to go in preference to anchorage. In your example 4, had the boat concerned had a super-duper anchor that had held it, how would they have retrieved it? I don't know about yours, but my narrow boat hasn't got a winch, unlike lumpy water boats. So assuming that he/she had been able to fix whatever the problem was, the only way they are going to get moving again is by cutting the anchor warp ending out with no anchor at all. If the anchor is good enough to hold an 18 ton narrow boat in a decent current, there are few of us who will be strong enough to be able to recover it.

Provided the anchor has done it's job and "saved" the boat is that really such a problem?

 

A new anchor is relatively cheap. A new boat is not.

[rusty69]

One things is for certain. These anchor debates will go on til the bitter end

[Midnight]

Back on the tidal Yorkshire Ouse. When we restarted the engine I retrieved the anchor using the hand ball method as described by Alan de Enfield

Edited August 25, 2022 by Midnight

[Naughty Cal]

13 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

One things is for certain. These anchor debates will go on til the bitter end

Assuming you have one.

 

We know of at least one anchor and chain set at the bottom of Trent End because the owner didn't check it was attached 

 

 (Not ours by the way!!)

[rusty69]

6 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

Assuming you have one.

 

We know of at least one anchor and chain set at the bottom of Trent End because the owner didn't check it was attached 

 

 (Not ours by the way!!)

I can't really take the pee. We lost our CQR in Holkham bay on a rough day waiting for the tide into Wells. As we only have chain, it was my normal practice to use a length of separate nylon line as an anchor snubber on bumpy days. On this occasion though, for some reason I didn't bother, and we lost the anchor. Pretty sure the shackle snapped off, but as it was never retrieved, I can't say for sure.

 

Luckily, we still had the kedge to rely on.

[LadyG]

1 hour ago, Arthur Marshall said:

As I'm singlehanding, and even if the anchor is out of the gas locker and on a rope, which it only is on rivers, I'd have to get from the blunt end to the pointy bit to deploy it, by which time I imagine I'd have sunk. It's the most useless piece of equipment on the boat.

I mostly avoid needing it by sticking to canals and only going on rivers when absolutely necessary. Last trip I left it at the mooring.

Why would you sink?

[rusty69]

2 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

As I'm singlehanding, and even if the anchor is out of the gas locker and on a rope, which it only is on rivers, I'd have to get from the blunt end to the pointy bit to deploy it, by which time I imagine I'd have sunk. It's the most useless piece of equipment on the boat.

I mostly avoid needing it by sticking to canals and only going on rivers when absolutely necessary. Last trip I left it at the mooring.

I spose if you were desperate, you could lob your trombone over the side and hope it hooked summit.

[Arthur Marshall]

16 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

I spose if you were desperate, you could lob your trombone over the side and hope it hooked summit.

Unfortunately it's in the front cabin, so I might just well get the anchor. 

Strangely, if you delete the bit before the comma and the bit after "and", inclusive, it's a suggestion I've heard before.

[Wanderer Vagabond]

3 hours ago, MtB said:

A better idea is to boat carefully and thoughtfully, maintain your boat and not get in the position where you need an anchor in the first place. 

Exactly this. From recollection the majority of boats that have ended up on a weir have either broken free from their moorings in times of flood, or were being used by muppets on waterways that were either in flood, or borderline flood, so they shouldn't have been there in the first place. All weirs where an anchor might be deployed already have barriers preventing boats from reaching them; the unprotected one in the image I earlier posted would not be suitable for an anchor deployment anyway.

 

1 hour ago, Midnight said:

Back on the tidal Yorkshire Ouse. When we restarted the engine I retrieved the anchor using the hand ball method as described by Alan de Enfield

Out of curiosity, whereabouts on the tidal Ouse were you? I'm not sure there are many bits between Selby and Naburn I'd be keen to throw an anchor out when being carried up by a flooding tide. Going into the tide/current it would be a lesser problem, but not something I do very much on a narrow boat (aside of the River Ribble).

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

All weirs where an anchor might be deployed already have barriers preventing boats from reaching them;

 

Unfortunately they don't work on 'sewer tubes'.

 

Again, on the Trent an NB ended up sideways against the dolphins (big Orange drums held together by chains) the flow held the NB against them, being very shallow draft and low air draft, the current rolled the boat under the Dolpins, the boat went over the weir, inverted, rolled the right way up and ended up 'drifting' (?) in the current until it went under some trees which wiped of all the stuff off the roof, the throttle and gear lever and most of the cruiser stern rails.

 

The couple on board survived but never boated again. C&RT brought the boat into our Marina.

 

The Guy was at the helm and as the boat started to get caught in the current his wife fell overboard and was hanging on with her finger tips, he could either switch off the engine to stop her legs being chopped up, or, could keep the engine going and hope to be able to power-out of the current.

His wifes legs won-out and he turned the key, grabbed his wife as the boat rolled under the Dolphins and they were swept into the undertow of the weir..

 

Picture of the new Yellow Dolphins at Cromwell Lock / Weir.

Didn't stop to measure them but I'd guess they are each about 5 foot diameter by 8 feet long

 

 

 

 

 

[rusty69]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Unfortunately they don't work on 'sewer tubes'.

 

Again, on the Trent an NB ended up sideways against the dolphins (big Orange drums held together by chains) the flow held the NB against them, being very shallow draft and low air draft, the current rolled the boat under the Dolpins, the boat went over the weir, inverted, rolled the right way up and ended up 'drifting' (?) in the current until it went under some trees which wiped of all the stuff off the roof, the throttle and gear lever and most of the cruiser stern rails.

 

The couple on board survived but never boated again. C&RT brought the boat into our Marina.

 

The Guy was at the helm and as the boat started to get caught in the current his wife fell overboard and was hanging on with her finger tips, he could either switch off the engine to stop her legs being chopped up, or, could keep the engine going and hope to be able to power-out of the current.

His wifes legs won-out and he turned the key, grabbed his wife as the boat rolled under the Dolphins and they were swept into the undertow of the weir..

 

Picture of the new Yellow Dolphins at Cromwell Lock / Weir.

Didn't stop to measure them but I'd guess they are each about 5 foot diameter by 8 feet long

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I know I shouldn't joke about such a serious subject, but those old dolphins were clearly not fit for porpoise.

 

Ok, i'm going, i'm going.

[IanD]

4 hours ago, MtB said:

A better idea is to boat carefully and thoughtfully, maintain your boat and not get in the position where you need an anchor in the first place. 

I would agree with this. The problem remains is that even well-maintained engines have been known to stop or fail unexpectedly, most often when being worked hard for long periods like going upriver -- not on red boards or a flood, just normal currents or after rain.

 

Yes the chance of this happening is small, and in most cases the boat will then be swept downstream and most probably end up on the bank, but there's an even smaller chance of a bad outcome like hitting a bridge/boat/weir and sinking.

 

An anchor is basically an insurance policy -- and not such an effective one, especially the standard 14kg Danforth -- against this *tiny* chance of disaster. Most boaters will never have to deploy an anchor in an emergency in their entire boating lifetime -- but a few will...

 

Just like any insurance policy, it's personal choice whether to take one out or assume/hope that it'll never happen to you -- and if you do take one out, whether to go for the cheapest possible basic cover (Danforth) or a more expensive policy with much better benefits (Fortress).

 

None of these choices is "right" or "wrong"... 😉

Edited August 25, 2022 by IanD

[Wanderer Vagabond]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Unfortunately they don't work on 'sewer tubes'.

 

Again, on the Trent an NB ended up sideways against the dolphins (big Orange drums held together by chains) the flow held the NB against them, being very shallow draft and low air draft, the current rolled the boat under the Dolpins, the boat went over the weir, inverted, rolled the right way up and ended up 'drifting' (?) in the current until it went under some trees which wiped of all the stuff off the roof, the throttle and gear lever and most of the cruiser stern rails.

 

The couple on board survived but never boated again. C&RT brought the boat into our Marina.

 

The Guy was at the helm and as the boat started to get caught in the current his wife fell overboard and was hanging on with her finger tips, he could either switch off the engine to stop her legs being chopped up, or, could keep the engine going and hope to be able to power-out of the current.

His wifes legs won-out and he turned the key, grabbed his wife as the boat rolled under the Dolphins and they were swept into the undertow of the weir..

 

Picture of the new Yellow Dolphins at Cromwell Lock / Weir.

Didn't stop to measure them but I'd guess they are each about 5 foot diameter by 8 feet long

 

 

 

 

 

Which all rather sounds like an amount of current that they should never have been out boating in a narrow boat in the first place, doesn't it?