Josephine- DIY replating and full fitout of a 70s Hancock and Lane narrowboat

[harrybsmith]

4 hours ago, Stroudwater1 said:

Missed the last instalment it’s looking really good. Presumably you are intending to cut out a hatch in the front cabin roof to facilitate getting out? 
 

I imagine there’s to be some good drainage holes at each corner by the front decks, and a lip on the front entrance to avoid a fair amount of rain ingress. Is anything going under the tug deck? 

 

 

 

Ooh, thanks for waking up this thread, MANY updates since the last one I need to write up

 

No hatch at the front but a side hatch being cut about ⅓ the way down the cabin (like a Canaltime South West Durham built shell) and this hatch is big enough for emergency egress (as per BSS)

 

Drain channels and lip in, it's totally dry now

 

Bedroom under the tug deck (allows all the width to be used and is cosy) 

[IanD]

57 minutes ago, harrybsmith said:

 

Ooh, thanks for waking up this thread, MANY updates since the last one I need to write up

 

No hatch at the front but a side hatch being cut about ⅓ the way down the cabin (like a Canaltime South West Durham built shell) and this hatch is big enough for emergency egress (as per BSS)

 

Drain channels and lip in, it's totally dry now

 

Bedroom under the tug deck (allows all the width to be used and is cosy) 

 

Same as mine. Be warned, you'll probably get flak for this from people who think it's not safe in case trouble strikes in a narrow lock, in spite of the fact that this layout is specifically mentioned as a compliant example by BSS -- which IIRC also mentions this very lock issue as advice only in a footnote... 😉

 

I guess the people who drafted the BSS were mainly thinking of this as a fire exit, and there are very few boat fires in narrow locks... 🙂

[David Mack]

2 hours ago, IanD said:

I guess the people who drafted the BSS were mainly thinking of this as a fire exit, and there are very few boat fires in narrow locks... 🙂

There are two circumstances when you might want to exit a narrowboat cabin quickly: fire and sinking...

[magnetman]

Exactly. 

 

If I was putting in side doors as emergency exit on a narrow boat they would want to have hatches on the top preferably semicircular so you can slip out the top in the event of the doors being blocked. 

 

 

Just a random google image but something like this is what you want..

 

 

 

[IanD]

16 minutes ago, David Mack said:

There are two circumstances when you might want to exit a narrowboat cabin quickly: fire and sinking...

Indeed there are. But it's clear -- at least, to me -- that the biggest concern for BSS is fire, at least as far as emergency exits are concerned. They're obviously aware of the issue with side doors in a lock because it's mentioned as a comment, but its not even as strong as advice and -- unlike the dual exit paths -- is certainly not compulsory (on hire boats, not privately owed ones).

 

If people are sufficiently worried about the side-door-in-lock-exit problem then of course they can have something different on their boat, but that doesn't mean they can insist that other people who choose differently -- who are aware of the issue but like BSS judge it to be acceptable -- are "wrong"... 😉

 

(but as with so many other things on CWDF like toilets and sterns and engines and heating and anchors and bow thrusters, I don't expect that will stop them doing just that...)

Edited December 11, 2023 by IanD

[David Mack]

4 minutes ago, IanD said:

If people are sufficiently worried about the side-door-in-lock-exit problem then of course they can have something different on their boat,

But the people who decide on a particular configuration of exits aren't necessarily the people who might find themselves trapped when the circumstances stack up the wrong way.

[IanD]

Just now, David Mack said:

But the people who decide on a particular configuration of exits aren't necessarily the people who might find themselves trapped when the circumstances stack up the wrong way.

Then they shouldn't buy that boat, should they?

 

(there are very few hire boats built this way, maybe none -- the Canaltime boats have a breakable front window IIRC...)

 

Please don't try and force your *preferences* on other people -- what you do on your boat is your business, and vice versa... 😉

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

17 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Exactly. 

 

If I was putting in side doors as emergency exit on a narrow boat they would want to have hatches on the top preferably semicircular so you can slip out the top in the event of the doors being blocked. 

 

 

Just a random google image but something like this is what you want..

 

 

 

my side hatch is just like that,

but being a fat bastard I’d still never get out,

hopefully once the ‘lid’ is open there be some sort of play with the hatch doors either against the lock side or the bank to open a little to allow me to breath in and escape. 

 

 

 

 

[harrybsmith]

Ultimately it's my boat, and I'm building it for me, in line with the applicable regs. I can't see it being for sale for quite a while nor used as a trip/hire boat so I'm not overly concerned, although it it all good to bear in mind.

 

I can get out the front hatch without an issue, it's not going to be my main entrance but doesn't pose an issue.

 

I've thought about break glass hammers etc, but the windows I've fitted are double glazed so I'm not sure how successful they would be and I'm really not planning to check! 

[IanD]

1 minute ago, harrybsmith said:

Ultimately it's my boat, and I'm building it for me, in line with the applicable regs. I can't see it being for sale for quite a while nor used as a trip/hire boat so I'm not overly concerned, although it it all good to bear in mind.

 

I can get out the front hatch without an issue, it's not going to be my main entrance but doesn't pose an issue.

 

I've thought about break glass hammers etc, but the windows I've fitted are double glazed so I'm not sure how successful they would be and I'm really not planning to check! 

It still wouldn't have any problem as a trip/hire boat so long as it meets the BSS rules, which side hatches do... 😉

[Jon57]

1 hour ago, magnetman said:

Exactly. 

 

If I was putting in side doors as emergency exit on a narrow boat they would want to have hatches on the top preferably semicircular so you can slip out the top in the event of the doors being blocked. 

 

 

Just a random google image but something like this is what you want..

 

 

 

Eye brow 

50 minutes ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

my side hatch is just like that,

but being a fat bastard I’d still never get out,

hopefully once the ‘lid’ is open there be some sort of play with the hatch doors either against the lock side or the bank to open a little to allow me to breath in and escape. 

 

 

 

 

Vasaline on the Christmas list. 🤶😁

[harrybsmith]

Let's fill in the timeline and get this thread up to date 

 

So after the tug deck was fitted and welded into place the drains were added (as was mentioned above). I opted for 1" tubing mitred to suit the angles of the gunwhale and tug deck edge respectively then welded in. Here's the only photo I currently have of one which was while I was tidying up the edge of it with a die grinder so doesn't really show you much 

 

After that the guard irons could then be reinstated. My method for doing this was to tack a piece of angle iron to the hull side, then balance one end of the strip on that while holding the other in position by hand and tack it at that end. All being well you can then go back along the elngth, tacking it then weld fully. They will be fully welded top and bottom but I'm going to fetch my MIG back to the boat to do underneath and that's currently tied up sticking my 2CV back together... 

 

(That's my Dad in the backround, really not sure why he's pulling that face?) 

 

Window holes were then cut and the double glazed windows shown earlier were then plonked in. They're actually still not fully attached but they will be held in with stainless self tappers. Not usually a fan of stainless screws but they are the most appropriate thing here 

 

 

 

 

To get the guard irons to conform to the shape of the bow requires them to twist, which requires a fair amount of force. Here's boatbuilding special tool No 147, a big spanner with a scaff bar attached. 

 

 

 

Which gives a result as shown here 

Meanwhile, inside the boat, it was time to start rust converting and get some paint down. Everthing fresh steel was given an aggressive going over with an 80 grit disc in a DA sander, then a decent coating of Vactan, then Zinc Phosphate primer, then green bilge paint. Here's some excerpts 

 

 

Painting at night under the bow. Note the hull side on the left in rust convertor 

 

 

Baseplate in first coat of primer 

 

The floor crossmembers mentioned earlier were also painted in bilge green before being welded into place. Note the gaps at their edges to allow water to drain past, and the reinforcing struts in the top right that span between them 

 

 

Where the paint was affected by welding it was then touched in and everything given another coat 

 

Before laying it the marine plywood floor was slathered in yacht varnish as I really don't want to end up replacing it 

 

 

And then it was cut up and placed down on the floor crossmembers, and the cabin top and sides given a de-rusting and a paint too. 

 

All of this interior work focuses on the front half of the cabin, the rear isn't being addressed just yet in the story. 

 

The astute amongst you will notice no mention of ballasting. Not because i've forgotten, simply because this floor is just being put down temporarily to give me somewhere to live while i'm at the boat (and has been a huge help in that). There's still a bit of hull work to do at the stern, and I'm keen to do a floatation test as soon as possible so the floor will be lifted and the boat ballasted prior to that 

 

 

More to update, but I bet that generates enough questions on its own! 

 

[David Mack]

10 hours ago, harrybsmith said:

 

 

There's not much room for any bilge water to flow past the ends of those angles. I would have cut them at 45 degrees or flatter to leave a bigger gap.

Are you mounting the plywood floor directly to the angles or are you putting timber between? Providing longitudinal timber bearers will allow airflow under the floor whereas putting transverse bearers on top of the angles (or having no bearers) will result in a series of separate spaces with poor underfloor ventilation. 

[harrybsmith]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

There's not much room for any bilge water to flow past the ends of those angles. I would have cut them at 45 degrees or flatter to leave a bigger gap.

Are you mounting the plywood floor directly to the angles or are you putting timber between? Providing longitudinal timber bearers will allow airflow under the floor whereas putting transverse bearers on top of the angles (or having no bearers) will result in a series of separate spaces with poor underfloor ventilation. 

 

There is a fair bit of room for water to get past, I can get a finger between the hull side and crossmember on each of them 

 

Not planning to put timbers but thin ish (6mm or so) rubber pads on the crossmembers and longitudinals, which I hope should thermally isolate the floor from the hull as well as provide a bit of an air gap 

[Barneyp]

On 12/12/2023 at 22:20, harrybsmith said:

...........

Before laying it the marine plywood floor was slathered in yacht varnish as I really don't want to end up replacing it 

 

 

And then it was cut up and placed down on the floor crossmembers, and the cabin top and sides given a de-rusting and a paint too. 

.........

Really impressed with the progress.

Did you seal the exposed edges of the plywood after you cut it? The edges are the weak point of plywood, unsealed/coated edges will suck in any available moisture causing the individual layers to swell and split the board apart.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Barneyp

[harrybsmith]

39 minutes ago, Barneyp said:

Really impressed with the progress.

Did you seal the exposed edges of the plywood after you cut it? The edges are the weak point of plywood, unsealed/coated edges will suck in any available moisture causing the individual layers to swell and split the board apart.

 

I did, and they'll receive more coats when the floor gets lifted to ballast the shell 

[harrybsmith]

Time for another update

 

So the idea is to get the front 1/2 of the boat liveable, while I finish off the last of the steel work on the stern, which allows me to spend a whole weekend there in relative comfort. Liveable to me, in this context, is dry, warm and able to be cleaned. 

 

Dry has been achieved, able to be cleaned is possible now its painted, but warmth was lacking. suppose i'd better put some insulation in then... 

 

I initially was dead set on sprayfoaming, however it isn't a DIY job (no matter what way you play it) and if you're getting someone in they really need to do the whole boat all at once for it to make financial sense, which isn't possible here, so I've gone for "Celotex" style boards. It gives a constant thickness of insulation which is nice, and I've bonded them to the hull with a generous amount of foam which hopefully leaves no gaps behind. 

 

First job was to batten the roof. There's quite a lot of curvature to the roof so I wan't really happy using timber bent to suit and I had some nice scavenged plywood offcuts (not sure exactly what it is but it's got lots of layers and is very solid) so I chose to make the roof battens out of ply cut to size. Because it's nice ply it does hold screws on its edge 

 

 

 

Templated one, cut them out, screwed and bonded them in. 

 

Then time to insulate the roof. The total thickness of insulation I want on the topsides is 50mm, which on the roof is made up out of two 25mm sheets bonded together. To wedge them in place I made props which force them into shape while the adhesive foam dries. 

 

 

 

Done! Reassuringly there was plenty of squeeze out from the foam, which shows its worked its way throughout the rear of the insulation. 

 

Cabin sides next, which were a tad simpler than the roof as they are flat 50mm sections, although I appear to not have taken a photo of them done, which is weird... 

 

Another thing to achieve liveability was to stick some doors on the front, so I drew a set up on CAD, produced some nice engineering drawings and comissioned a local company with a CNC plasma to knock a couple of sets up. Did they fit? Did they heck, too big. Quick measure and they were bent wrong, so I had to trim the sides off and re-weld them. Quite annoying but now rectified. 

 

 

Here they are fitted temporarily 

 

Still nowhere near up to date, so plenty more to come with more progress being made every weekend 

 

 

 

[Stilllearning]

It's getting to the stage where I began wondering what engine you are going to use, or have you already decided?

[Bee]

So you've got a 2CV, a landrover and a big boat project. Do you ever sleep? or eat? Really good work by the way.

[Tracy D'arth]

33 minutes ago, Bee said:

So you've got a 2CV, a landrover and a big boat project. Do you ever sleep? or eat? Really good work by the way.

But the Landy's MOT is nearly 10 years out of date!  And not on trade plates either.

[harrybsmith]

10 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

But the Landy's MOT is nearly 10 years out of date!  And not on trade plates either.

 

Registered historic as it's pre 1983 and currently taxed (and insured). It had a hiatus off the road to have lots of issues addressed a few years ago and is my daily driver now, the online MOT system doesn't always reflect historic exemptions (As a result I carry a photocopy of the V5 stating historic and the V112 with the exemption) 

 

1 hour ago, Stilllearning said:

It's getting to the stage where I began wondering what engine you are going to use, or have you already decided?

 

Feel free to have a guess, it's era appropriate, 3 cylinder and not the one mentioned earlier in the thread 

 

48 minutes ago, Bee said:

So you've got a 2CV, a landrover and a big boat project. Do you ever sleep? or eat? Really good work by the way.

 

Oh that's only the start, 2 jobs and a few other projects like to consume time too! Plenty of eating but not enough sleeping is the usual trend 

 

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, harrybsmith said:

Feel free to have a guess, it's era appropriate, 3 cylinder and not the one mentioned earlier in the thread 

Lister SR3 would be age appropriate, but that is mentioned earlier in the thread, so you have something else in mind? Sticking with air cooled (and noisy) or are you looking at water cooled?

[harrybsmith]

13 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Lister SR3 would be age appropriate, but that is mentioned earlier in the thread, so you have something else in mind? Sticking with air cooled (and noisy) or are you looking at water cooled?

 

Change one letter to make it bigger... 

 

Will be noisy but will be good noisy, will usually be constant speed running too 

 

[waterworks]

On 12/12/2023 at 22:20, harrybsmith said:

Let's fill in the timeline and get this thread up to date 

 

So after the tug deck was fitted and welded into place the drains were added (as was mentioned above). I opted for 1" tubing mitred to suit the angles of the gunwhale and tug deck edge respectively then welded in. Here's the only photo I currently have of one which was while I was tidying up the edge of it with a die grinder so doesn't really show you much 

 

After that the guard irons could then be reinstated. My method for doing this was to tack a piece of angle iron to the hull side, then balance one end of the strip on that while holding the other in position by hand and tack it at that end. All being well you can then go back along the elngth, tacking it then weld fully. They will be fully welded top and bottom but I'm going to fetch my MIG back to the boat to do underneath and that's currently tied up sticking my 2CV back together... 

 

(That's my Dad in the backround, really not sure why he's pulling that face?) 

 

Window holes were then cut and the double glazed windows shown earlier were then plonked in. They're actually still not fully attached but they will be held in with stainless self tappers. Not usually a fan of stainless screws but they are the most appropriate thing here 

 

 

 

 

To get the guard irons to conform to the shape of the bow requires them to twist, which requires a fair amount of force. Here's boatbuilding special tool No 147, a big spanner with a scaff bar attached. 

 

 

 

Which gives a result as shown here 

Meanwhile, inside the boat, it was time to start rust converting and get some paint down. Everthing fresh steel was given an aggressive going over with an 80 grit disc in a DA sander, then a decent coating of Vactan, then Zinc Phosphate primer, then green bilge paint. Here's some excerpts 

 

 

Painting at night under the bow. Note the hull side on the left in rust convertor 

 

 

Baseplate in first coat of primer 

 

The floor crossmembers mentioned earlier were also painted in bilge green before being welded into place. Note the gaps at their edges to allow water to drain past, and the reinforcing struts in the top right that span between them 

 

 

Where the paint was affected by welding it was then touched in and everything given another coat 

 

Before laying it the marine plywood floor was slathered in yacht varnish as I really don't want to end up replacing it 

 

 

And then it was cut up and placed down on the floor crossmembers, and the cabin top and sides given a de-rusting and a paint too. 

 

All of this interior work focuses on the front half of the cabin, the rear isn't being addressed just yet in the story. 

 

The astute amongst you will notice no mention of ballasting. Not because i've forgotten, simply because this floor is just being put down temporarily to give me somewhere to live while i'm at the boat (and has been a huge help in that). There's still a bit of hull work to do at the stern, and I'm keen to do a floatation test as soon as possible so the floor will be lifted and the boat ballasted prior to that 

 

 

More to update, but I bet that generates enough questions on its own! 

 

Oxide primer has to be in contact ( chemically bonded )with bare steel to have any anti corrosion effect , putting Vactan under it just stops it working, a self defeating waste of time and money. 

 

 

[David Mack]

3 hours ago, waterworks said:

Oxide primer has to be in contact ( chemically bonded )with bare steel to have any anti corrosion effect , putting Vactan under it just stops it working, a self defeating waste of time and money. 

Does 'oxide primer' rely on the rust preventing qualities of oxide these days? Or is it just ordinary paint coloured the traditional colour?

Edited January 18 by David Mack