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Josephine- DIY replating and full fitout of a 70s Hancock and Lane narrowboat


harrybsmith

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27 minutes ago, David Mack said:

How are you going to grind the welds flat at the bottom of the recesses and in the corners?

One boatbuilder I spoke to some years ago said he ground a 45° edge along the angled pieces so he could fit the panel flat against the angled face and weld it only from inside the cabin, so there would be no concave welds to tidy up.

Incidentally most wooden panelling on working boats was about 1" thick, so the angled face would measure more like 35mm.

 

One of these in a die grinder 

 

Dormer 6mm Solid Carbide Rotary Burr – P803 Cylinder with Endcut |  PrimeTools

 

(Dormer carbide burr)

 

They absolutely fly through metal, i've used them plenty of times on car stuff previously. 

 

I was tempted to go for a thinner angled face however I ran it past a boatbuilding friend of mine (of some repute) and his opinion was that thin lips can get lost fairly easily. Fundamentally I don't think i'll be convincing anyone it's actually wood 

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4 hours ago, harrybsmith said:

Fundamentally I don't think i'll be convincing anyone it's actually wood 

 

I had the opposite 'problem' a few years ago just as I was finishing off some scumbling on the outside of my boat. 

 

A passer-by stopped to chat and asked me what I was doing. So I explained in probably more detail than necessary that I was scumbling, a paint effect to look like wood. I was very taken aback when he point-blank contradicted me, saying "no you're not". So I explained again, this was a paint finish to mimic wood on the steel cabin side. He contradicted me again, this time adding that he could see it was wood already and not steel, so I must be mistaken. 

 

Not often I'm totally lost for words... 🤣

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6 hours ago, harrybsmith said:

 

One of these in a die grinder 

 

Dormer 6mm Solid Carbide Rotary Burr – P803 Cylinder with Endcut |  PrimeTools

 

(Dormer carbide burr)

 

They absolutely fly through metal, i've used them plenty of times on car stuff previously. 

 

I was tempted to go for a thinner angled face however I ran it past a boatbuilding friend of mine (of some repute) and his opinion was that thin lips can get lost fairly easily. Fundamentally I don't think i'll be convincing anyone it's actually wood 

 

Yeah, I used one of those to tidy up a weld and then suddenly the weld had gone 😀

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

I had the opposite 'problem' a few years ago just as I was finishing off some scumbling on the outside of my boat. 

 

A passer-by stopped to chat and asked me what I was doing. So I explained in probably more detail than necessary that I was scumbling, a paint effect to look like wood. I was very taken aback when he point-blank contradicted me, saying "no you're not". So I explained again, this was a paint finish to mimic wood on the steel cabin side. He contradicted me again, this time adding that he could see it was wood already and not steel, so I must be mistaken. 

 

Not often I'm totally lost for words... 🤣

 

Gillie redid ours during lockdown and twice people have said it looks good and asked  how often does the wood need varnishing.

Simple answer, every year with a special varnish from Craftmaster  😀

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  • 4 weeks later...

I was back seeing my family for Christmas, and rather than spend too much time with them I retired to a safe distance in the garage to properly dig into the "pile of Lister parts" i've been calling an engine. 

 

20221228_150514-min.jpg.d5e59f12072b74affe32a8d1ebd5abec.jpg

 

I dummy assembled everything to check what was there and what wasn't, and thankfully i'd bought a complete kit of parts! I'm pretty lucky in that I have access to an industrial hot washer at work, so i'll be taking stuff like the barrels in to get it sparkly clean in due course. 

 

Another matter to address on the engine was the colour. Red is the fastest colour, but doesn't look great here and the finish is terrible. Get the paintstripper out! I think i'll be leaving the aluminium side covers in bare metal, I may even have them vapour blasted 

 

20221228_162955-min.jpg.714a7746181f066ed8561abb53214be4.jpg

 

Another thing i've been playing with is getting a representative CAD model of the boat drawn up. It's not mega accurate but it'll let me really easily visualise how various things interract with each other (eg bulkhead to window placement) and enable easy quanitity surveying. 

 

 

 

Shell.PNG.7f279123ef9e68f4d45adc6ec6c6be5f.PNG

 

The only thing left is to wish you all a very happy new year and thanks for reading. 

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A really interesting thread - will be great to see what you have in mind as a final look.

 

Regarding your engine, if you have access to a media blaster then I have found it a lot easier to run a first pass of getting paint off with a scraper or drill-mounted wire brush (often better than an angle grinder as it can be reversed when the wires start to get bent in one direction, so it keeps cutting rather than polishing), using a selection of pencil and wide brushes, and then blast with plastic media. This works on aluminium too, without cutting if you pick the right one, and brings up soft metals such as aluminium and brass to a level where a quick polish is all that's needed, having taken off both paint and corrosion products without damaging the metal. If I really need to, I can be gentle enough to leave the original Alochrom 1200 finish in place on a piece of Land Rover. This has been far more effective than paint strippers, and because it is a standard solid blasting medium you can run it through an ordinary cabinet if you clean it out well to remove hard grit before starting. Don't expect it to be as fast as harder media on iron castings, but it is not painful, and will do the job far faster than paint strippers will. It has the advantage that traces of residual material do not cause wear on engine components, although if you still have access to the parts washer a good clean after blasting will make doubly sure. If you need to protect iron and steel parts after cleaning to prevent flash rusting, a quick dunk in washing soda is effective as it stops the rust forming for a few hours while you get a batch ready for painting. Zinc phosphate/phosphoric acid wash (aka Eastwood After-Blast from Frosts) is also very good, but a lot more expensive and not necessary if you can paint fairly quickly. I tend to use it on bad castings with a lot of pitting, to 'kill' the rust which is too deep in the pits to remove. Do not use it on aluminium!

 

Alec

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On 07/12/2022 at 20:23, MtB said:

 

I had the opposite 'problem' a few years ago just as I was finishing off some scumbling on the outside of my boat. 

 

A passer-by stopped to chat and asked me what I was doing. So I explained in probably more detail than necessary that I was scumbling, a paint effect to look like wood. I was very taken aback when he point-blank contradicted me, saying "no you're not". So I explained again, this was a paint finish to mimic wood on the steel cabin side. He contradicted me again, this time adding that he could see it was wood already and not steel, so I must be mistaken. 

 

Not often I'm totally lost for words... 🤣

Years ago, a boater told me how he came back to his trad scumbled boat one day, to discover big scratches is the scumbling on his side doors. Turned out that a stupid potential thief thought that he could use a swan neck bar on his side doors to break I to the boat...

It also showed the benefit of having really strong bolts on the inside of your doors.

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6 hours ago, agg221 said:

A really interesting thread - will be great to see what you have in mind as a final look.

 

Regarding your engine, if you have access to a media blaster then I have found it a lot easier to run a first pass of getting paint off with a scraper or drill-mounted wire brush (often better than an angle grinder as it can be reversed when the wires start to get bent in one direction, so it keeps cutting rather than polishing), using a selection of pencil and wide brushes, and then blast with plastic media. This works on aluminium too, without cutting if you pick the right one, and brings up soft metals such as aluminium and brass to a level where a quick polish is all that's needed, having taken off both paint and corrosion products without damaging the metal. If I really need to, I can be gentle enough to leave the original Alochrom 1200 finish in place on a piece of Land Rover. This has been far more effective than paint strippers, and because it is a standard solid blasting medium you can run it through an ordinary cabinet if you clean it out well to remove hard grit before starting. Don't expect it to be as fast as harder media on iron castings, but it is not painful, and will do the job far faster than paint strippers will. It has the advantage that traces of residual material do not cause wear on engine components, although if you still have access to the parts washer a good clean after blasting will make doubly sure. If you need to protect iron and steel parts after cleaning to prevent flash rusting, a quick dunk in washing soda is effective as it stops the rust forming for a few hours while you get a batch ready for painting. Zinc phosphate/phosphoric acid wash (aka Eastwood After-Blast from Frosts) is also very good, but a lot more expensive and not necessary if you can paint fairly quickly. I tend to use it on bad castings with a lot of pitting, to 'kill' the rust which is too deep in the pits to remove. Do not use it on aluminium!

 

Alec

 

 

You had me at "Bits of Land Rover". (If you cast your eyes to the left of my engine you may see some such bits)

 

I think I will soon have access to a vapour blaster at work, which will be used to get the castings to final finish. I'm using an industrial paintstripper which eats off the majority of the paint with a scrub from a toothbrush, then i'm aiming to vapour blast to final shine. No point doing that just yet though because as you say clean things do corrode pretty quickly, and I don't really want a furry white engine! 

 

Caustic soda is an excellent way of paint stripping too, I do it quite a bit on diecast models, although if left in too long then non-ferrous parts can lose dimensional accuracy. I remember reading a thread on another forum about a chap who'd dipped some aluminium gearbox casings in it and went to reassemble only to discover all the bearings were no longer a press fit, more a rattling fit! 

 

Good tip on the scraper too, I think i'll sharpen up an old file and have a go at the block like that 

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14 hours ago, harrybsmith said:

 

 

You had me at "Bits of Land Rover". (If you cast your eyes to the left of my engine you may see some such bits)

 

I think I will soon have access to a vapour blaster at work, which will be used to get the castings to final finish. I'm using an industrial paintstripper which eats off the majority of the paint with a scrub from a toothbrush, then i'm aiming to vapour blast to final shine. No point doing that just yet though because as you say clean things do corrode pretty quickly, and I don't really want a furry white engine! 

 

Caustic soda is an excellent way of paint stripping too, I do it quite a bit on diecast models, although if left in too long then non-ferrous parts can lose dimensional accuracy. I remember reading a thread on another forum about a chap who'd dipped some aluminium gearbox casings in it and went to reassemble only to discover all the bearings were no longer a press fit, more a rattling fit! 

 

Good tip on the scraper too, I think i'll sharpen up an old file and have a go at the block like that 

Aluminium is not best friends with caustic soda! I once saw an old saucepan disappear in front of my eyes, luckily it wasn’t mine, and I didn’t put the caustic soda in it.

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35 minutes ago, Stilllearning said:

Aluminium is not best friends with caustic soda! I once saw an old saucepan disappear in front of my eyes, luckily it wasn’t mine, and I didn’t put the caustic soda in it.

Yes - it will rapidly disappear! Note the difference between caustic soda (sodium hydroxide aka lye and commonly available as drain cleaner) and washing soda (sodium carbonate). It's washing soda you want to use to passivate the surface of iron and steel against flash rusting, and is OK on aluminium but does not add much. The best option for rinsing off aluminium is a weak acid (note weak as opposed to dilute) such as citric (lemon juice) or acetic (vinegar). You could also use oxalic (boiled up rhubarb leaves) but it is unecessarily toxic.

 

Alec

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38 minutes ago, Stilllearning said:

Aluminium is not best friends with caustic soda! I once saw an old saucepan disappear in front of my eyes, luckily it wasn’t mine, and I didn’t put the caustic soda in it.

Which makes it very effective for removing stuck seat posts out of steel bike frames. 😉

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  • 4 weeks later...

Been down to the boat today for the first time this year, pleased to report that all is well. Did a bit more welding and measured up a few bits for the next steps. 

 

Thought I'd get some photos of her as she sits now, quite striking proportions! 

 

20230128_141532-min.jpg.0235741fd1f5e1d247287a42f05843c8.jpg

 

There's a few bits of life that are happening in the background that are a bit drastic but should really benefit the progression of this as a project,  it's probably going to be moved to a more convenient yard fairly shortly

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And...

 

Are you moving on to the that equally interesting-looking Harborough-style boat next to the "Josephine"??!

 

Not sure it is a Harborough but I recognise that faintly odd way the top bend on the bow widens towards the prow. 

 

If not a Harb, what is it?! 

 

 

 

 

Edited by MtB
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4 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

I like the great selection of cutting/grinding discs. Do they work when wet or fall apart?

 

They're all the worn out ones! The ones that look complete are 9" ones worn down, actual useable ones are kept dry. 

 

2 hours ago, David Mack said:

 

Are you going to get the whole thing shotblasted before painting?

 

I'm not intending to, the surface rust is a good thing in my book as it's removing the mill scale from the steel. It's a lot easier to remove light surface rust than it is to remove mill scale by grinder/scabbler

 

51 minutes ago, MtB said:

And...

 

Are you moving on to the that equally interesting-looking Harborough-style boat next to the "Josephine"??!

 

Not sure it is a Harborough but I recognise that faintly odd way the top bend on the bow widens towards the prow. 

 

If not a Harb, what is it?! 

 

 

 

 

 

It is a Harborough, wooden top, been overplated, now thin again underneath. Previous owners purchased it for £25k, it then sank, they sold it for £10k and it needs re-bottoming and re-cabin-ing, so possibly more of a project than this? 

 

I'm pretty sure mine isn't a Harborough, I think it's a Fernie, despite it being registered as an H&L. Or at least what's left of it is... 

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On 29/01/2023 at 21:07, harrybsmith said:

I'm not intending to, the surface rust is a good thing in my book as it's removing the mill scale from the steel. It's a lot easier to remove light surface rust than it is to remove mill scale by grinder/scabbler.

If I recall correctly, from the seventies, Bruce Robert's book on boat building recommended building boats outside so that the rust removed the mill scale for you.

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18 hours ago, Peanut said:

If I recall correctly, from the seventies, Bruce Robert's book on boat building recommended building boats outside so that the rust removed the mill scale for you.

I'll have a hunt for that book, it sounds interesting, thanks for the reccomendation. It's probably where the folk who reccomended it as a method to me got it from 

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On 29/01/2023 at 20:10, MtB said:

And...

 

Are you moving on to the that equally interesting-looking Harborough-style boat next to the "Josephine"??!

 

Not sure it is a Harborough but I recognise that faintly odd way the top bend on the bow widens towards the prow. 

 

If not a Harb, what is it?! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You just had to tempt fate didn't you... A friend is after a project boat currently and came to look at it today, I think he's putting an offer in. It didn't fare well when I hammer tested the hull though... 

 

1014900348_WhatsAppImage2023-02-05at17_38_23.jpeg.7dec931242e0e297094889b665d91848.jpeg

 

I'm hoping to not get too involved... Anyway, I did manage to get a bit more done on mine, another 10 or so metres of welding and  prep for a couple of weekends time where the front is going to lose its convenient access hole 

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1 hour ago, harrybsmith said:

You just had to tempt fate didn't you... A friend is after a project boat currently and came to look at it today, I think he's putting an offer in. It didn't fare well when I hammer tested the hull though... 

 

Lolololol!! 

 

I'm sure that's probably just a thoughtfully concealed bilge pump skin fitting.....

 

Hull looks fine to me. 

 

Just make sure Alan doesn't come round checking what bulbs are fitted into the nav lights, lol! 

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Updates... This will probably be a multi-part update because of the upload limit, so bear with. 

 

1. My friend has bought the boat next door, i'm trying not to get too involved but we'll see how that goes... 

 

2. I found this MEGA picture of my boat in action as a hire boat with Black Prince from this thread:

 

(It's the one at the top...) Weirdly it doesn't have its banana irons on in the picture, maybe a spirited hirer had knocked them off? 

 

617366295_198323.jpg.c6fb4fa258aff6719a3a158d7e3ee790.jpg.b917ff74b00174c9994b8db4a20c54e1.jpg 

 

 

3. I chopped a big hole in the front then filled it in. 

 

A hole;20230217_134823-min.jpg.d095b4989cdfcb1a8e57f59e78a8bfaf.jpg

 

Because of the size of the sheet being twice the size of the bits we were putting in by hand we thought it was a good idea to crane it into place rather than try to lift it. I welded an old anode frame onto the sheet and picked it up with the engine crane, which worked very well

 

20230217_144149-min.jpg.caf8336e2fcdd95ae024858bdc5e92be.jpg

 

The Plate was then welded in its top left corner (as you're looking at it there) and then the manipulation began. Brace for Part 2...

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Bl***y H**l!!!!!  What've you done to it now!!!  Ten out of ten for courage! Actually, filling that hole in could be awkward, You might find that making a hardboard template or two from the existing side could make the job easier but I would hesitate to offer any advice to someone who clearly is tackling something that would scare the pants off me.

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On 29/01/2023 at 21:07, harrybsmith said:

 

I'm pretty sure mine isn't a Harborough, I think it's a Fernie, despite it being registered as an H&L. Or at least what's left of it is... 

You are correct with Fernie.

Delta shaped handrail supports, front end cabin sweep, and the nose all confirm this.

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