Josephine- DIY replating and full fitout of a 70s Hancock and Lane narrowboat

[waterworks]

As a qualified welder I'm concerned at what you are doing, my jaw is on the floor, the welds look very bad and no way safe or watertight, I can't see any that would pass any basic visual inspection . You seem to be using a hobby gasless MIG with no edge prep on 6 mm plate , eek ! Do you know how to use dogs to get plates together ?

 

 

From what i can see in the pictures this project needs to be stopped from being put back in the water until the welds are inspected profesionally and or dye tested ( not a marine surveyor, they know nothing about welding) . 

 

I very much doubt anyone will listen though, that's the default for this forum. 

 

 

 

 

[harrybsmith]

6 hours ago, waterworks said:

As a qualified welder I'm concerned at what you are doing, my jaw is on the floor, the welds look very bad and no way safe or watertight, I can't see any that would pass any basic visual inspection . You seem to be using a hobby gasless MIG with no edge prep on 6 mm plate , eek ! Do you know how to use dogs to get plates together ?

 

 

From what i can see in the pictures this project needs to be stopped from being put back in the water until the welds are inspected profesionally and or dye tested ( not a marine surveyor, they know nothing about welding) . 

 

I very much doubt anyone will listen though, that's the default for this forum. 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm stick welding, not using gasless MIG below the waterline. I've used gasless above the waterline. 

 

I'll grant you, there are a couple of areas (and I mean probably 1ft of bead) that aren't great and I know I need to redo. All edges are bevelled and reasonably prepped before welding 

 

How familiar are you with narrowboat construction? Quite a few people who know their stuff (aka have built boats) and don't pull their punches have seen it in person and in general their feedback was positive 

 

I may dye pen test the welds, I am familiar with weld inspection. Always happy to listen on how to improve and do appreciate your concern 

[waterworks]

Can you show these stick welds on the hull plates ?

 

Have you keyholed them, used a backing or are you welding both sides ?

[harrybsmith]

7 hours ago, waterworks said:

Can you show these stick welds on the hull plates ?

 

Have you keyholed them, used a backing or are you welding both sides ?

 

Seems a reasonable request, i'll get some pics for you when i'm next at the boat. 

 

Welding both sides of everything, the reason that there looks to be no bevelling of the edges of the plates for prep is because when the plate is overlapped with the existing hull before trimming to size (to achieve a consistent root gap, also an important part of a good weld) the exact size the plate will end up isn't known, so it can't be prepped on the floor. 

 

My way of doing it is to get the plate tacked as minimally as possible into place and then cut a V in the join using a grinding disc, approximately to 1/2 the thickness of the plate. Weld that up, then do exactly the same on the other side of the plate, but grind the notch until you hit weld and grind through the original tacks. That way full penetration is (nearly) assured. 

 

It's quite a slow way of doing it and I know you wouldn't ever base an industrial process around it, but it is thorough and as both sides are welded fully then i'd be mightily unlucky to get an invisible weld defect in both welds in the same location causing a leak 

[waterworks]

Worrying .

 

Do you know how to use dogs and wedges to bring your plates into alignment ? 

 

 

[john.k]

An old trick they used in the Liberty ships......fill the big gaps with rods and weld them in.............you can also use heavy 8ga wire.

[waterworks]

3 hours ago, john.k said:

An old trick they used in the Liberty ships......fill the big gaps with rods and weld them in.............you can also use heavy 8ga wire.

Liberty ships broke up at sea and sank. 

[IanD]

1 hour ago, waterworks said:

Liberty ships broke up at sea and sank. 

...due to cheap/rapid/slapdash construction and a lack of understanding about welding and stress concentrations and crack propagation -- riveted hulls are more forgiving 🙂

 

According to J E Gordon in "Structures -- or why things don't fall down" (great book, highly recommended) the best example of crack propagation in a welded hull was a ship where after a storm the chef spotted a crack in the floor of the galley. "No problem, just mark it so we can see if it gets worse", he was told. Being a conscientious fellow he did this, marking the position of the end of the crack by painting the date on the deck every time it got longer.

 

Luckily for engineers everywhere, when the ship broke in two in a tropical storm the painted markings were on the half that stayed afloat. To this day, this remains the best record of sub-critical crack propagation in welded ship hulls... 😉

Edited June 28, 2023 by IanD

[john.k]

I dunno what power source you got ,but if its got the herbs,wind it up and use much bigger rods ,and feed in a filler wire as you weld.....this will fill the gaps without excessive penetration........................I wouldnt worry about weld soundness ,your boat aint gonna see a 30 ft swell any time soon.

[waterworks]

8 hours ago, john.k said:

I dunno what power source you got ,but if its got the herbs,wind it up and use much bigger rods ,and feed in a filler wire as you weld.....this will fill the gaps without excessive penetration........................I wouldnt worry about weld soundness ,your boat aint gonna see a 30 ft swell any time soon.

Don't do any of this.

[MtB]

I'm reminded of that Harry Enfield character... "Oh no, you don't wanna do it loik THAT...."

 

 

[harrybsmith]

Not quite sure where all this negativity has come from, seems slightly unconstructive. I'm not posting here for any personal gain really, only to provide a reference for anyone contemplating doing similar as to exactly what goes into it, as no such thing exists. Anyway, to help allay some worries you may have (worse than my mother and I thought she was national worrying champion) i've prepared some labelled photos to see what's going on 

 

 

Oh, and as for liberty ships, I've never seen a U Boat on a canal so I think i'll be fairly safe... 

Edited June 28, 2023 by harrybsmith

[john.k]

Weld is easily changed ,....if you dont like the look of a weld ,simply gouge it out.

[Jimbobs]

Well, I for one am massively impressed by your skills and can’t wait to see how this turns out so please keep posting updates!

Edited June 29, 2023 by Jimbobs
Speeling

[Bee]

Look, If you can't see daylight through a weld then its pretty good. Rebottomed, refooted, reframed and a good plan for the topsides, all in the open with probably less than perfect equipment. I reckon that is some achievement and in the long tradition of good boats being turned out in some unlikely places. There should be an award for people who tackle this sort of stuff instead of just handing over colossal sums of money for a finished boat. Untidy welding indeed. Pshaw

[BEngo]

Many Liberty ships cracked and sank because the Critical temperature of the hull steel, (including the welding) was higher than the water temperature.  Critical temperature is the one at which the steel becomes brittle.  This was often about 2 or 3C, which was not much good in Arctic waters.

 

The OP seems to be doing a decent job of rebuilding his boat.  You will not see many hull or cabin  plate edges with weld prep in canal boat yards.  Heavy (6mm plus) baseplate, certainly but 6mm sides or 4mm cabins are generally butt welded both sides, as they come.  Indoor builders sometimes prefer MAG but the outdoors ones use sticks.

 

N

[waterworks]

Can you show the finished welds please. 

[MtB]

2 hours ago, BEngo said:

Indoor builders sometimes prefer MAG but the outdoors ones use sticks.

 

Many years ago when Alex was teaching us to arc weld, Starcoaster acerbically observed that stick welding was probably so called because the rod sticks so willingly and repeatedly to the workpiece. 

 

 

[john.k]

I once bought 6 tons of cellulose pipe rods at an auction for $10.......its amazing how quick you use up a 50 lb tin of rods .

[Stroudwater1]

Just carry on, you look like you are doing a great job. Showing how you are getting there rather than the completed blacked shiny end product is what’s so enjoyable about this thread. 
As for U boats just head up to Beverley Beck and this will look after you. 
 

 

 

[waterworks]

21 hours ago, BEngo said:

 

Ignore above , i cant get rid of it .

 

Not sure how you can call a massive scab a tack weld, this is a tack weld .

Edited June 30, 2023 by waterworks

[john.k]

If it fills a hole ,its good to go....getn-R -dun.

[Morris]

@harrybsmith Please don't be discouraged from posting your progress here, your work is inspiring. I find it's best to just not engage with nutters on the internet who demand that you explain yourself... 😄

[harrybsmith]

On 29/06/2023 at 02:20, john.k said:

Weld is easily changed ,....if you dont like the look of a weld ,simply gouge it out.

 

Exactly, that's the way i've been working. Increasingly things have turned out pretty bob on first time round, however in the beginning i'd stop and check very frequently, and if I wasn't 100% happy i'd redo it. 

 

On 29/06/2023 at 23:32, MtB said:

 

Many years ago when Alex was teaching us to arc weld, Starcoaster acerbically observed that stick welding was probably so called because the rod sticks so willingly and repeatedly to the workpiece. 

 

 

 

Starcoaster does seem to have an excellent way with words, my favourite thread on here is their "Things nobody tells you" list, it's hilarious. 

 

15 hours ago, waterworks said:

Ignore above , i cant get rid of it .

 

Not sure how you can call a massive scab a tack weld, this is a tack weld .

 

I've done that very repair (VW T2 sill) and yeah I probably tacked it up like that as the tacks were only holding the weight of the panel. On a boat you can't just go to various online retailers and buy preformed panels, so that tack is resisting the force of the sheet springing back, consequently anything much smaller would simply be unsafe. 

 

On 29/06/2023 at 23:20, waterworks said:

Can you show the finished welds please. 

 

I've given this some thought and my conclusion is no. Not because i'm embarrased by them, nor because I think they wouldn't stand up to scrutiny, but simply because it doesn't add to the story here. This thread is all about documenting what goes into a DIY replating, not really about my particular skills. Welding is one of those skills (like plastering a wall or driving fast) where plenty of people think they can do a top notch job. That suits "my agenda" nicely as i'd love to see more of these 70's boats preserved, therefore putting one's skills into action would be excellent to see. 

 

7 minutes ago, Morris said:

@harrybsmith Please don't be discouraged from posting your progress here, your work is inspiring. I find it's best to just not engage with nutters on the internet who demand that you explain yourself... 😄

 

Fear not all, there's more to come 

[dmr]

15 hours ago, waterworks said:

Ignore above , i cant get rid of it .

 

Not sure how you can call a massive scab a tack weld, this is a tack weld .

 

I suspect that your experience is automotive rather than narrowboats. You appear to have included a drainage channel into the very bottom of your plate. Your boat will sink when you put it into the water. 😀