Josephine- DIY replating and full fitout of a 70s Hancock and Lane narrowboat

[Tony Brooks]

16 minutes ago, harrybsmith said:

Fear not all, there's more to come

 

Good, wish I could tackle that sort of job - my stick welding on the rear fender box was definitely 100% sparrow crap style, but it all stayed in place for maybe 8 years of use. Mind you, mine did not have to be waterproof.

[john.k]

A lot of years ago ,two Ducthmen I knew wanted to move a house they got free onto some land they owned.,so they built the trailers they needed ......the welding was the worst ever seen .......but it held for the one house ,so they moved another house ,then another ........the trailer finally let go  ,and a house rolled back down a steep hill and hit a big tree ...........my theory was that cracks cant propagate in blobs of weld that arent connected...............they had moved and sold maybe 20 houses ,never paid a penny in tax ,and things were good ......then they set to arguing as Dutchmen often do ,and the tax got them.

[waterworks]

3 hours ago, Morris said:

@harrybsmith Please don't be discouraged from posting your progress here, your work is inspiring. I find it's best to just not engage with nutters on the internet who demand that you explain yourself... 😄

People who are qualified pointing out errors are " nutters". That's Canalworld in a nutshell. 

4 hours ago, harrybsmith said:

so that tack is resisting the force of the sheet springing back, consequently anything much smaller would simply be unsafe. 

 

 

 

You use dogs and wedges to bring the plates in and you tack all along  , these tacks don't have to be big, they have to be ground back before welding anyway, stop trying to kid a pro. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Barneyp]

4 hours ago, waterworks said:

People who are qualified pointing out errors are " nutters". That's Canalworld in a nutshell. 

You use dogs and wedges to bring the plates in and you tack all along  , these tacks don't have to be big, they have to be ground back before welding anyway, stop trying to kid a pro. 

I don't doubt that you are a qualified and knowledgeable welder, and that you are skilled at your job. But you seem unable to separate best practice from industry standard.

 

Narrow boats are not built to fine engineering tolerances or subject to the stresses imposed on ocean going ships. What the OP is doing will be fine and is broadly in line with the industry standard for narrowboats, the automotive iand lumpy water boat building  industries would demand higher standards because they are needed in those environments.

 

As a comparison I work in the metal finishing/coating industry and was taken aback by the OP's statement that they were not going to shot blast before painting, but I realise that the steel narrowboat industry has a very different set of standards to the rest of the world.1🙃🤔

Edited July 1, 2023 by Barneyp

[harrybsmith]

1 hour ago, Barneyp said:

 

 

As a comparison I work in the metal finishing/coating industry and was taken aback by the OP's statement that they were not going to shot blast before painting, but I realise that the steel narrowboat industry has a very different set of standards to the rest of the world.1🙃🤔

 

Actually a slight amendment to that- I probably will blast before coating. The previous yard I was in wanted £8k to blast the outside (hence my decision not to) but this new one opens up a greater number of options at a much more reasonable price 

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, harrybsmith said:

 

Actually a slight amendment to that- I probably will blast before coating. The previous yard I was in wanted £8k to blast the outside (hence my decision not to) but this new one opens up a greater number of options at a much more reasonable price 

 

About 25 years ago my boat was out for blacking at Aldermaston. The grit-blasted the boat next to mine and mine was totally covered in grit. It got in through the mushrooms, filled the door hinges with grit so they made a grinding noise when you opened of shut them, took us HOURS to clean the boat up. Aldermaston were totally DILLIGAF.

 

 

[waterworks]

On 01/07/2023 at 09:53, dmr said:

 

I suspect that your experience is automotive rather than narrowboats. You appear to have included a drainage channel into the very bottom of your plate. Your boat will sink when you put it into the water. 😀

It's not, the picture is a guide. Obviously. 

On 01/07/2023 at 17:26, Barneyp said:

I don't doubt that you are a qualified and knowledgeable welder, and that you are skilled at your job. But you seem unable to separate best practice from industry standard.

 

Narrow boats are not built to fine engineering tolerances or subject to the stresses imposed on ocean going ships. What the OP is doing will be fine and is broadly in line with the industry standard for narrowboats, the automotive iand lumpy water boat building  industries would demand higher standards because they are needed in those environments.

 

As a comparison I work in the metal finishing/coating industry and was taken aback by the OP's statement that they were not going to shot blast before painting, but I realise that the steel narrowboat industry has a very different set of standards to the rest of the world.1🙃🤔

Scabby welds and big gaps in fit up are not industry standard. 

[TheBiscuits]

1 hour ago, waterworks said:

It's not, the picture is a guide. Obviously. 

Scabby welds and big gaps in fit up are not industry standard. 

 

Not bought a Collingwood shell recently, have you ...

[MtB]

3 hours ago, waterworks said:

It's not, the picture is a guide. Obviously. 

 

 

NOT a guide I'd say, being obviously a car made of 0.8mm thick bean can material or similar.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

7 hours ago, MtB said:

 

 

NOT a guide I'd say, being obviously a car made of 0.8mm thick bean can material or similar.

 

 

and I suspect MIG rather than stick.

[Stilllearning]

On 01/07/2023 at 20:17, MtB said:

 

About 25 years ago my boat was out for blacking at Aldermaston. The grit-blasted the boat next to mine and mine was totally covered in grit. It got in through the mushrooms, filled the door hinges with grit so they made a grinding noise when you opened of shut them, took us HOURS to clean the boat up. Aldermaston were totally DILLIGAF.

 

 

I worked in yard where a boat was shotblasted years before I arrived.

After that experience it was decided to never do it again, there was grit in every inaccessible corner of the workshop.

[Barneyp]

11 hours ago, waterworks said:

It's not, the picture is a guide. Obviously. 

Scabby welds and big gaps in fit up are not industry standard. 

No industry standard would be to just weld a sheet of steel over the top, with welds that are of a similar or lower standard to the OP's, and then make no attempt to check the weld quality.

In some ways the OP is going above industry standard, no it's not perfect but it's better than a lot of boats that float and navigate the canal system.

[waterworks]

5 hours ago, Barneyp said:

No industry standard would be to just weld a sheet of steel over the top, with welds that are of a similar or lower standard to the OP's, and then make no attempt to check the weld quality.

In some ways the OP is going above industry standard, no it's not perfect but it's better than a lot of boats that float and navigate the canal system.

You made that up though. 

[Barneyp]

23 minutes ago, waterworks said:

You made that up though. 

What have I made up?

[Silent Flight]

Hats off to the OP, breathing new life into this boat!

[waterworks]

The OP has declined to prove me wrong so I will have to stick to my original professional opinion , this welding wouldn't pass city & guilds part one evening class and isnt safe for the owner or anyone in the future that may own it and I hope no one is lumbered with thousands of £ bill to salvage it.

 

30 minutes ago, Barneyp said:

What have I made up?

All of it. 

[BilgePump]

36 minutes ago, waterworks said:

The OP has declined to prove me wrong so I will have to stick to my original professional opinion , this welding wouldn't pass city & guilds part one evening class and isnt safe for the owner or anyone in the future that may own it and I hope no one is lumbered with thousands of £ bill to salvage it.

 

All of it. 

Which bit of that course addresses pulling in big sheets of steel onto a one-off design narrowboat. Just curious because I'm rubbish at welding and would love to sign up for this specific course if it exists.

[Stilllearning]

37 minutes ago, waterworks said:

The OP has declined to prove me wrong so I will have to stick to my original professional opinion , this welding wouldn't pass city & guilds part one evening class and isnt safe for the owner or anyone in the future that may own it and I hope no one is lumbered with thousands of £ bill to salvage it.

 

All of it. 

I owned aboat for about 12 years that was so poorly fabricated that I did my best not to look at it too closely. Believe me, the OP's boat is being rebuilt to a far higher standard.

My old boat was refitted by the next owner and passed a structural survey by a surveyor I had and  still have a high regard for, without anything major being noted.

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, waterworks said:

this welding wouldn't pass city & guilds part one evening class and isnt safe for the owner or anyone in the future that may own it and I hope no one is lumbered with thousands of £ bill to salvage it.

Narrow boats are hugely strong for the loads they experience - the steel thicknesses used are not for strength, but to give resilience against denting and to allow for significant corrosion over the life of the boat. It follows that the welds don't need to be anywhere near as strong as the adjacent plate to be more than adequate for the task, and therefore do not need to meet normal professional welding standards. Narrowboats sinking due to a failed weld are almost unheard of (although in 50 years boating I have come across two cases where ingress of water was attributed to a split weld, but in both cases increased use of the bilge pump until the boat could be got to a boatyard was more than sufficient). And if a boat should actually sink in the canal, then in most cases salvage is straightforward.

[waterworks]

1 hour ago, BilgePump said:

Which bit of that course addresses pulling in big sheets of steel onto a one-off design narrowboat. Just curious because I'm rubbish at welding and would love to sign up for this specific course if it exists.

I said the welds not the fabrication methods, can you not read ?

[MtB]

14 minutes ago, waterworks said:

I said the welds not the fabrication methods, can you not read ?

 

No need to be so rude.

 

 

[Barneyp]

2 hours ago, waterworks said:

All of it. 

So you're saying that I have made up the fact that the standard repair for corroded steel hulls in on narrowboats is to weld another steel plate over the top?

[waterworks]

16 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Narrow boats are hugely strong for the loads they experience - the steel thicknesses used are not for strength, but to give resilience against denting and to allow for significant corrosion over the life of the boat. It follows that the welds don't need to be anywhere near as strong as the adjacent plate to be more than adequate for the task, and therefore do not need to meet normal professional welding standards. Narrowboats sinking due to a failed weld are almost unheard of (although in 50 years boating I have come across two cases where ingress of water was attributed to a split weld, but in both cases increased use of the bilge pump until the boat could be got to a boatyard was more than sufficient). And if a boat should actually sink in the canal, then in most cases salvage is 

Wrong as wrong can be. 

 

The underwater hull welds need to be as " strong"  as the plate , meaning the thickness of the weld needs to equal the plate thickness or else the welds will corrode away before the plate does or if you hit something the welds will be a weak spot.  This is what is meant by a "full penetration " and in the case of the bottom plate to hull side fillet " throat thickness".

 

 

 

These are basic fabrication methods not pipeline codings, if your boat builder is leaving you with incomplete penetration or welds thinner than the plate then you are being conned by cowboys. If you're paying tens of thousands for a hull then at least demand basic standards used on truck bodies and shipping containers. I doubt any reputable boat builders hiring qualified welders are doing this. 

 

 

 

 

 

17 minutes ago, Barneyp said:

So you're saying that I have made up the fact that the standard repair for corroded steel hulls in on narrowboats is to weld another steel plate over the top?

Stop trying to fabricate an argument just for the sake of it. 

[blackrose]

52 minutes ago, waterworks said:

 

 

 

I know nothing about welding but that diagram reinforces (pardon the pun) why I've always preferred to see welds that haven't been ground flush. To me that intuitively seems stronger.

Edited July 3, 2023 by blackrose

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, waterworks said:

if your boat builder is leaving you with incomplete penetration or welds thinner than the plate then you are being conned by cowboys.

But the OP, whose welding you are complaining about, is not a boatbuilder. He is a DIYer rebuilding his own boat. So nobody is being conned out of anything.

 

And no, I didn't suggest that boatbuilders are routinely providing less than full penetration welds; I just pointed out that full strength welds are not needed on strength grounds for narrowboats.

Edited July 3, 2023 by David Mack