Longer Boats Up Norf

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

So you drive in, (if you fit) stick the front on the cill and steer the stern to one side. 

No shaft or thruster needed. 
 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

25 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

The stern will have to be over to one side to tuck in behind the bottom gate, the bows need to be in the middle because the cill is slightly curved...

 

(assuming going down backwards like here, where I lifted the picture from -- which some people have said isn't needed, so who knows...)

 

 

Interesting you refer to that thread because skimming through the general consensus seems to be ‘ buy a boat under 60 ft if you want to do the north’

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Goliath said:

So you drive in, (if you fit) stick the front on the cill and steer the stern to one side. 

No shaft or thruster needed. 
 

That's what I'd have thought, I was just going by the photos and the text description with them. The thruster comment was a bit tongue-in-cheek...

 

1 hour ago, Goliath said:

Interesting you refer to that thread because skimming through the general consensus seems to be ‘ buy a boat under 60 ft if you want to do the north’

 

Yes and I'm well aware of that, as well as all the other threads on the same subject -- not all of which agree, other people have basically said it's not such a problem 😉

 

What that thread really means is "if you want to avoid any hassle and a possible soaking in the C&H locks, buy a boat under 60' if you're based near them and use them frequently".

 

I only expect to go that way at most once a year, and I'm willing to put up with the possible hassle (and the soaking, which the boat is designed to deal with) in exchange for the extra internal length all the rest of the time 🙂

Edited April 26, 2022 by IanD

[PaulJ]

@IanD The boat behind me today at Standedge is 60ft and heading up the C&H. They are members here and I asked them to post their experience here.

Didnt get their names but 🙂👍and if youre reading this-hope you had a less scrapy transit than the boat we met coming out...

[IanD]

9 minutes ago, PaulJ said:

@IanD The boat behind me today at Standedge is 60ft and heading up the C&H. They are members here and I asked them to post their experience here.

Didnt get their names but 🙂👍and if youre reading this-hope you had a less scrapy transit than the boat we met coming out...

Thanks, it'll be useful to see an up-to-date account of any problems getting through 🙂

[Iain_S]

On 26/04/2022 at 13:51, MtB said:

 

 

Yeah, you could use it instead of the hooter!

 

Y'know....

 

One ear-piercing screech: Steering to port

Two ear-piercing screeches: Steering to starboard

26 ear-piercing screeches: Stationary

Etc etc

Have you got that the right way round?

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

Have you got that the right way round?

 

 

Yes, for the people who use their bow thruster as a sound signal 

[Guest]

How to use a bow thruster.

 

Probably a bit too scary for muddy ditch boaters.

 

 

[churchward]

25 minutes ago, IanD said:

Thanks, it'll be useful to see an up-to-date account of any problems getting through 🙂

We are currently at Sowerby Bridge to go down Tuel lock on Friday.  Our friends are with us on their 58ft boat (we will have no trouble as we are 50ft). He is a bit worried but I can't see their being any issue at that length on the C&H.  We will have a lot more time to kick our heels before and after Leeds as we were hoping to go down the L&L but have learned today that lock 31 there will not be open until May 17th earliest and Huddersfield Narrow seems a no-go with removal of Standedge from the booking system.  We shan't be turning around and going back down the Rochdale though as none of us can stand the pressure on our physical or mental health!

[Midnight]

55 minutes ago, churchward said:

We are currently at Sowerby Bridge to go down Tuel lock on Friday.  Our friends are with us on their 58ft boat (we will have no trouble as we are 50ft). He is a bit worried but I can't see their being any issue at that length on the C&H.  We will have a lot more time to kick our heels before and after Leeds as we were hoping to go down the L&L but have learned today that lock 31 there will not be open until May 17th earliest and Huddersfield Narrow seems a no-go with removal of Standedge from the booking system.  We shan't be turning around and going back down the Rochdale though as none of us can stand the pressure on our physical or mental health!

  58ft on the Calder will be fine but you have only one option to escape from Yorkshire. That'll be Goole > River Ouse > River Trent - not for the faint hearted though.

[dmr]

I really wish I had never started this thread now, so much negativity and silly arguments. We helped a friend up the C&H today. never done it before, nasty little locks, gate paddles at the top and evil part walkways at the bottom. Even with a 55 foot boat it needed a lot of care. However nothing looked particularly new so I assume the boat that failed was either a bit longer than they thought, or inexperienced (which they admitted they were) or both.

[churchward]

10 hours ago, Midnight said:

  58ft on the Calder will be fine but you have only one option to escape from Yorkshire. That'll be Goole > River Ouse > River Trent - not for the faint hearted though.

Yes indeed we don't fancy that much but but neither do we fancy going back down the Rochdale with water shortages, grounding, many visits down the weed hatch (12 in one day) and calling CRT twice, once for a mattress round the prop that was only released by CRT getting in the water in a dry suit and cutting it off after 3 hours.  Fortunately we do not have to be anywhere so can wait for lock 31 on the L&L to be finished.

Edited April 28, 2022 by churchward

[dmr]

4 minutes ago, churchward said:

Yes indeed we don't fancy that much but but neither do we fancy going back down the Rochdale.  Fortunately we do not have to be anywhere so can wait for lock 31 on the L&L to be finished.

 

It is usually much easier going down the Rochdale into Manchester than coming up because you take the water with you, and if there is an empty pound you can fill it without creating too much trouble for yourself.

[IanD]

12 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

It is usually much easier going down the Rochdale into Manchester than coming up because you take the water with you, and if there is an empty pound you can fill it without creating too much trouble for yourself.

 

The Rochdale there seems very variable. When we went up it (Thomas Telford to Rose of Lancaster in a day) we had no water problems and didn't get a single prop foul -- apart from the occasional bit of weed which a quick burst of reverse-forward-reverse-forward always cleared. Maybe we were exceptionally lucky (time of year -- late August?), maybe churchward was exceptionally unlucky (early in season with few boats having gone before?), or maybe it's got a lot worse in the last 5 years, or maybe it's just a matter of pot luck -- speaking personally I've had a lot more trouble with prop fouls in other places, like the Birmingham Old Main Line.

 

Any canal will have some people with bad experiences (prop fouls, low water, broken equipment, stoning, vandalism, theft...) but this doesn't mean they should be avoided or treated as "no-go" areas -- I've seen similar warnings in the past about places like Blackburn, Stoke, bottom of the Caldon, the Rochdale, the Ashton and others, and had no problems in any of them. The only places we've ever had any problems (like being set adrift, or stuff nicked off the boat) have been ones with no warnings about them...

Edited April 28, 2022 by IanD

[dmr]

20 minutes ago, churchward said:

Yes indeed we don't fancy that much but but neither do we fancy going back down the Rochdale with water shortages, grounding, many visits down the weed hatch (12 in one day) and calling CRT twice, once for a mattress round the prop that was only released by CRT getting in the water in a dry suit and cutting it off after 3 hours.  Fortunately we do not have to be anywhere so can wait for lock 31 on the L&L to be finished.

 

Im currently on the Rochdale and getting to chat with most passing boats, and most are having a really hard time getting up the 18, with a few even spending a night in Newton Heath. I am not sure what has gone wrong. We came up in October and had a really hard time (left New Islington just before dawn, did not get to the Boat and Horses till well after dark). 

The previous year we also left New Islington at first light and did so well that we did the Slottocks flight the same afternoon.

 

A friend came up a week or so ago and although it was hard work he got to the Boat and Horses by mid afternoon so its not all bad.

[churchward]

27 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

It is usually much easier going down the Rochdale into Manchester than coming up because you take the water with you, and if there is an empty pound you can fill it without creating too much trouble for yourself.

I agree it is easier that way normally but it was so bad coming up we grounded in a much longer pound too at/near Failsworth and could not get off the boats so had to call CRT and it took much more than a single locks worth to get us free. Then there is just such a lot of rubbish as I mentioned 12 times down the weed hatch ( I don't mean just a nuisance but enough to lock drive and stall the engine)including a 3 hour wrestle with a mattress and springs and 12 hours to do 4 miles.  We even have had trouble on the Yorkshire side of the summit with low water and fallen trees.

 

It was like going back to the 1970s on the canal but without the youthful enthusiasm and strength!

 

I'd rather moor somewhere pleasant and wait for the L&L lock 31.

[IanD]

4 minutes ago, churchward said:

I agree it is easier that way normally but it was so bad coming up we grounded in a much longer pound too at/near Failsworth and could not get off the boats so had to call CRT and it took much more than a single locks worth to get us free. Then there is just such a lot of rubbish as I mentioned 12 times down the weed hatch ( I don't mean just a nuisance but enough to lock drive and stall the engine)including a 3 hour wrestle with a mattress and springs and 12 hours to do 4 miles.  We even have had trouble on the Yorkshire side of the summit with low water and fallen trees.

 

It was like going back to the 1970s on the canal but without the youthful enthusiasm and strength!

 

I'd rather moor somewhere pleasant and wait for the L&L lock 31.

 

...and the many L&L swing bridges, some well-nigh immovable... 😞

Edited April 28, 2022 by IanD

[churchward]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

 

...and the many L&L swing bridges, some well-nigh immovable... 😞

Indeed!  I do not expect boating to be easy anywhere and regard some prop fouling as an occupational hazard normally.  All part of the challenge but we all have our limits where it stops being fun.

 

Where it is just hard work one can pace oneself and stop for the day sooner for a rest if necessary but the Rochdale for us has been more than just hard work not least because you have the added issue of needing to put some distance from certain places.

 

The upside has been the scenery and places the Yorkshire side of the Summit but even there not trouble free.  Also it has to be said that CRT have been very good in assisting us when we have needed to call them.  The chap who came out to help get rid of the mattress was superb (named Billy) getting into his dry suit and cutting away the mattress from under the boat.  His dry suit leaked too and as part of the note I sent to CRT in his praise I requested they buy him a new one which to be fair they said they would. I hope they do as promised.

[IanD]

33 minutes ago, churchward said:

Indeed!  I do not expect boating to be easy anywhere and regard some prop fouling as an occupational hazard normally.  All part of the challenge but we all have our limits where it stops being fun.

 

Where it is just hard work one can pace oneself and stop for the day sooner for a rest if necessary but the Rochdale for us has been more than just hard work not least because you have the added issue of needing to put some distance from certain places.

 

The upside has been the scenery and places the Yorkshire side of the Summit but even there not trouble free.  Also it has to be said that CRT have been very good in assisting us when we have needed to call them.  The chap who came out to help get rid of the mattress was superb (named Billy) getting into his dry suit and cutting away the mattress from under the boat.  His dry suit leaked too and as part of the note I sent to CRT in his praise I requested they buy him a new one which to be fair they said they would. I hope they do as promised.

 

I suspect the biggest problem for the canals like the Rochdale and HNC -- and to a lesser extent the L&L -- is lack of boat traffic (and cheapskate restoration?) compared to the more popular canals, IIRC the Rochdale and HNC average about 1 boat movement per day (according to CART lock use records) and the L&L maybe 3, compared to more than 20 on the most popular routes. Which not only means fewer boats to clear out crap and report problems, but also more chance for water levels to drop, and fewer complaints if there's any problem which means they're well down on CART's priority list when it comes to fixing them.

 

The trouble is that this is then a self-reinforcing problem; more people run into trouble (and tell people how bad it is on CWDF and other online forums...) which then puts people off from using them, so the numbers drop further, which makes the problems even worse... 😞

 

Canals like the Rochdale and HNC are undoubtedly harder work than many (duh -- they cross the Pennines...) and (like many other canals) have some grotty bits, but they also have a lot of absolutely splendid sections and go through some great places -- as does the L&L, though this is more popular. It would be a shame to see the Northern canals continue spiralling into decline as the number of boats using them drops -- so it may be a radical idea, but maybe encouraging more people to use them is a better option than putting them off? 😉

 

(having said that, churchward's post *does* also mention the good sides of them, and even gives a positive view of CART -- or at least, of Billy! -- unlike many...)

 

I suspect that as in most forums people -- even if there are only a few of them -- who have had terrible experiences post about them because they're justifiably annoyed, and people who have had good ones -- even if there are a lot of them -- don't post so much (if at all) because they're happy... 😉

Edited April 28, 2022 by IanD

[David Mack]

23 minutes ago, IanD said:

IIRC the Rochdale and HNC average about 1 boat movement per day (according to CART lock use records)

Perhaps not helped by the need to book passage at Tuel Lane and Standedge, rather than the turn-up-and-go that operates elsewhere.

[David Mack]

24 minutes ago, IanD said:

so it may be a radical idea, but maybe encouraging more people to use them is a better option than putting them off? 😉

Which was part of the logic behind the HNBC holding their gathering in Hebden Bridge in 2019. Getting a number of the longest and deepest narrowboats on the system over the Rochdale serves, not only to publicise the canal, but also to demonstrate that if these boats can do it, then so can the majority of boats which are shorter and have lower draught. And it significantly upped the lockage numbers for the year. And was supported by CRT (upper echelons and on-the-ground staff) since it helps both to identify particular problem areas and to justify the spending of resources on the canal.

[IanD]

33 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Perhaps not helped by the need to book passage at Tuel Lane and Standedge, rather than the turn-up-and-go that operates elsewhere.

Maybe, but (at least at Tuel Lane) this is also another self-reinforcing problem -- few boats (except at weekends when the hire fleet moves and the lock is manned all day) means the lock-keepers only attend when requested/needed.

 

Standedge is more of a problem with the way transits are run (all attended and 45mins between boats IIRC, which means 3 each way per day) and even more so if there aren't enough qualified people to accompany boats through which I believe is now a problem too 😞

28 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Which was part of the logic behind the HNBC holding their gathering in Hebden Bridge in 2019. Getting a number of the longest and deepest narrowboats on the system over the Rochdale serves, not only to publicise the canal, but also to demonstrate that if these boats can do it, then so can the majority of boats which are shorter and have lower draught. And it significantly upped the lockage numbers for the year. And was supported by CRT (upper echelons and on-the-ground staff) since it helps both to identify particular problem areas and to justify the spending of resources on the canal.

 

This might have helped temporarily in 2019 but it doesn't help with the longer-term problem of people being put off because these canals are "difficult" -- I think "hard work but very rewarding" is a more accurate description... 🙂

 

You could even say that the famous British traits of liking a good old moan (and *loving* reading about them) but not saying much when things go well (and people being less interested in "good news" articles) is also a factor, especially online... 😉

Edited April 28, 2022 by IanD

[churchward]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

 

I suspect the biggest problem for the canals like the Rochdale and HNC -- and to a lesser extent the L&L -- is lack of boat traffic (and cheapskate restoration?) compared to the more popular canals, IIRC the Rochdale and HNC average about 1 boat movement per day (according to CART lock use records) and the L&L maybe 3, compared to more than 20 on the most popular routes. Which not only means fewer boats to clear out crap and report problems, but also more chance for water levels to drop, and fewer complaints if there's any problem which means they're well down on CART's priority list when it comes to fixing them.

 

The trouble is that this is then a self-reinforcing problem; more people run into trouble (and tell people how bad it is on CWDF and other online forums...) which then puts people off from using them, so the numbers drop further, which makes the problems even worse... 😞

 

Canals like the Rochdale and HNC are undoubtedly harder work than many (duh -- they cross the Pennines...) and (like many other canals) have some grotty bits, but they also have a lot of absolutely splendid sections and go through some great places -- as does the L&L, though this is more popular. It would be a shame to see the Northern canals continue spiralling into decline as the number of boats using them drops -- so it may be a radical idea, but maybe encouraging more people to use them is a better option than putting them off? 😉

 

(having said that, churchward's post *does* also mention the good sides of them, and even gives a positive view of CART -- or at least, of Billy! -- unlike many...)

 

I suspect that as in most forums people -- even if there are only a few of them -- who have had terrible experiences post about them because they're justifiably annoyed, and people who have had good ones -- even if there are a lot of them -- don't post so much (if at all) because they're happy... 😉

I think for canals like the Rochdale and Huddersfield it is a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy or vicious circle.  They are poorly maintained so few boats go there and because few boats go there they are poorly maintained or rather receive less funding to maintain them.  

 

There is at least for the Rochdale the level of contempt the locals through Manchester (or at least enough of them) show for the Canal resource and CRT is fighting a loosing battle against vandalism and rubbish tipping.

 

I do not think just falsely advertising the state of the canal and trying to get more boats through that way will help. Some will fair better than others for sure but the truth will out, it's not just a few with bad experiences and it always looks rosier when you have not had the bad experience oneself.

 

 

45 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Perhaps not helped by the need to book passage at Tuel Lane and Standedge, rather than the turn-up-and-go that operates elsewhere.

The lock booking is only for the mid week days when there is not the resident Locky and /or volunteer on Friday through Monday.  Those days do not require booking.

Edited April 28, 2022 by churchward

[churchward]

37 minutes ago, IanD said:

Maybe, but (at least at Tuel Lane) this is also another self-reinforcing problem -- few boats (except at weekends when the hire fleet moves and the lock is manned all day) means the lock-keepers only attend when requested/needed.

 

Standedge is more of a problem with the way transits are run (all attended and 45mins between boats IIRC, which means 3 each way per day) and even more so if there aren't enough qualified people to accompany boats through which I believe is now a problem too 😞

 

This might have helped temporarily in 2019 but it doesn't help with the longer-term problem of people being put off because these canals are "difficult" -- I think "hard work but very rewarding" is a more accurate description... 🙂

 

You could even say that the famous British traits of liking a good old moan but not saying much when things go well is also a factor, especially online... 😉

They are only allowing one boat movement a day just now and not every day at that due to water shortages. We phoned them today.

 

There are no bookings available until June presently.

Edited April 28, 2022 by churchward

[David Mack]

36 minutes ago, IanD said:

This might have helped temporarily in 2019 but it doesn't help with the longer-term problem of people being put off because these canals are "difficult" -- I think "hard work but very rewarding" is a more accurate description... 🙂

I think the hope was that the 2019 gathering would have prompted  more use in the following years, but the pandemic rather put paid to that.

6 minutes ago, churchward said:

The lock booking is only for the mid week days when there is not the resident Locky and /or volunteer on Friday through Monday.  Those days do not require booking.

But nevertheless, the perception that this is a bookable location does I think serve to discourage the less organised boaters. The same as the need to book passage over the Summit and through the Manchester 18 did before these were opened to all comers without notice.