Longer Boats Up Norf

[IanD]

5 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

Quite easy to forget about when moving  along the gunwale to the front in a lock though, if anything should happen. I would of had a couple of ornate rings on the side if I was that bothered about spring mooring my boat and remove a potential hazard, like the TW below.

 

And the problem with rings like that is that they're high up, so the rope to the mooring pins is angled down, so this tends to pull the mooring pins out when a boat goes past and your boat is pulled backwards and forwards. Rings on the gunwale don't have this problem.

 

As usual, there's no ideal solution... 😉

[PD1964]

22 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

OK, maybe consider amending your post - after reading 'paracord' someone may be tempted to go and buy Paracord.

The 1/4" Paramax has a 1000lb breaking strain.

No your ok.

As I say they are used additional to the fixed mooring points and they have never snapped even when the Exol Pride passes at speed carrying hundreds of tons of oil, often ripping out other boats mooring pins and ropes.

Edited July 18, 2022 by PD1964

[PD1964]

26 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

And the problem with rings like that is that they're high up, so the rope to the mooring pins is angled down, so this tends to pull the mooring pins out when a boat goes past and your boat is pulled backwards and forwards. Rings on the gunwale don't have this problem.

 

As usual, there's no ideal solution... 😉

Then again you can just spring off your T Stud, so no real requirement to have them really👍

[haggis]

2 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

Then again you can just spring off your T Stud, so no real requirement to have them really👍

If I was having a boat built ( highly unlikely !) I would have extra mooring points ( for springs ) in front of the cabin. We have ours in front of the cratch board and the boat never moves an inch. Why make more trip hazards when they can be avoided ? 

[IanD]

Just now, PD1964 said:

Then again you can just spring off your T Stud, so no real requirement to have them really👍

 

Except I'd rather have a single crossed pair of mooring spikes at each end (more resistant to being pulled out) with one line to the T-stud (at right-angles to the bank) and one to the spring loop (running along the bank). This way neither line suffers from force multiplication when the boat moves at right-angles to it, which helps to stop the mooring spikes being loosened or pulled out.

 

If you want the same effect with just the T-stud then you need two separated mooring spikes at each end which are easier to pull out, either with boat movement or due to mischievous scroats. Unless you want to hammer 8 spikes in as 4 crossed pairs... 😉

1 minute ago, haggis said:

If I was having a boat built ( highly unlikely !) I would have extra mooring points ( for springs ) in front of the cabin. We have ours in front of the cratch board and the boat never moves an inch. Why make more trip hazards when they can be avoided ? 

If you look at the photo I have a "potters cabin" (why are they called this?) at the front, having the spring line in front of this means it's only about 3 feet from the T-stud (and on the tapered part of the bow) so pretty pointless.

 

Having it part-way along the (knee-high) potters cabin means you have to bend down to thread the rope through while not having the main cabin handrail to hold on to, so more likely to overbalance. The best compromise -- at both ends of the boat -- was to put them a couple of feet in from the end of the cabin.

 

Not perfect, but then nothing is 😉

[PD1964]

Just now, haggis said:

If I was having a boat built ( highly unlikely !) I would have extra mooring points ( for springs ) in front of the cabin. We have ours in front of the cratch board and the boat never moves an inch. Why make more trip hazards when they can be avoided ? 

Exactly, you would probably trip over them more then use them. If you look at the picture I put on of a hull from the same builder, it has different fender eyes then @IanD boat, which look like you could gat a shackle through for a spring line, with no trip hazard on the gunwhale.

[IanD]

8 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

Exactly, you would probably trip over them more then use them. If you look at the picture I put on of a hull from the same builder, it has different fender eyes then @IanD boat, which look like you could gat a shackle through for a spring line, with no trip hazard on the gunwhale.

 

Had I though of that early enough I might have suggested it to Tim. I went with the solution he's used before, which was easy to add on.

 

I've been finding recently (reverse layout boats) that I rarely need to run along the gunwale, and expect to do so even less on a boat which is closed at the bows (and has a bow thruster...) -- all activity outside the boat will be at the stern, including getting on and off e.g. with the centre line, or to drop off/pick up at locks. So I'm not really worried about the trip hazard in reality.

 

I'm sure somebody will point out that you need to get on or off at the bows *sometimes*, which is true -- but I didn't do this once the last fortnight we were out, and on the rare occasions I might have to do this I'll watch my step and try to not trip up 🙂

Edited July 18, 2022 by IanD

[Rob-M]

3 hours ago, IanD said:

Dog lead clips won't be attached to the eye, they'll be passed through it and clipped back round the rope.

 

And if that doesn't work I'll hang them from the roof rails... 😉

I use soft shackles from Tradline to attach the fenders as we have similar attachment points.  Quick to attach and remove and don't damage the paintwork.

[PD1964]

My friend has a slightly different design fender eye(RLL boatbuilders) more substantial and is often used with a shackle to moor on mis-spaced bollards or to spring line. 

[haggis]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

 

Except I'd rather have a single crossed pair of mooring spikes at each end (more resistant to being pulled out) with one line to the T-stud (at right-angles to the bank) and one to the spring loop (running along the bank). This way neither line suffers from force multiplication when the boat moves at right-angles to it, which helps to stop the mooring spikes being loosened or pulled out.

 

If you want the same effect with just the T-stud then you need two separated mooring spikes at each end which are easier to pull out, either with boat movement or due to mischievous scroats. Unless you want to hammer 8 spikes in as 4 crossed pairs... 😉

If you look at the photo I have a "potters cabin" (why are they called this?) at the front, having the spring line in front of this means it's only about 3 feet from the T-stud (and on the tapered part of the bow) so pretty pointless

Oh, I don't know about that. Our extra mooring point is certainly  a lot nearer the T stud than 3 feet ( more like 18 inches) and it certainly works. The extra point at the stern is only about 6 inches from the main mooring point and we use both extra points every time we moor and our boat never moves an inch. I see boats moored with the most amazing arrangements of ropes being moved around by passing boats and I just can't understand why some boaters make it so complicated. The best one on our recent trip was a boat attached to a pontoon with seven points of attachment between boat and pontoon. 

I think a lot of boaters problems come from not thinking about angles and not trying the boat up securely  .

 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

1 hour ago, haggis said:

If I was having a boat built ( highly unlikely !) I would have extra mooring points ( for springs ) in front of the cabin. We have ours in front of the cratch board and the boat never moves an inch. Why make more trip hazards when they can be avoided ? 

I’m a bit confused with the need for extra mooring points. 
I can see a possible advantage when tying to bollards. 
But if tying to Armco or putting pegs in the bank then the T stud and dollies are enough? 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

I'm sure somebody will point out that you need to get on or off at the bows *sometimes*, which is true -- but I didn't do this once the last fortnight we were out, and on the rare occasions I might have to do this I'll watch my step and try to not trip up 🙂

There’ll come a point when you’ll boat alone and will use the gunnels. 
There are plenty of places where you can’t moor at a lock landing and have to put the bow at the gates and walk down the gunnels, or places where you can’t get the stern in to the bank without getting the bow in first. 
Swing bridges, lift bridges and lots of other places where as a single hander you’ll need to walk the gunnels. 
 

[haggis]

4 minutes ago, Goliath said:

I’m a bit confused with the need for extra mooring points. 
I can see a possible advantage when tying to bollards. 
But if tying to Armco or putting pegs in the bank then the T stud and dollies are enough? 

The extra mooring points act as springs but they also enable me to tie up and cast off safely 😀. I am not very tall and being a bit ancient I can neither reach the t stud from the bank nor quickly climb on and off a non secured boat. But I can reach the extra point at the front ( I do the front, Iain does the stern) from the bank and can secure the boat while standing on the bank. When casting off, I can't reach the t stud without climbing round the cratch but I can reach round to the extra mooring point and cast off.  Much safer all round ! 

[IanD]

Just now, Goliath said:

There’ll come a point when you’ll boat alone and will use the gunnels. 
There are plenty of places where you can’t moor at a lock landing and have to put the bow at the gates and walk down the gunnels, or places where you can’t get the stern in to the bank without getting the bow in first. 
Swing bridges, lift bridges and lots of other places where as a single hander you’ll need to walk the gunnels. 
 

I know, I've been there and done all that. But I'm not a single hander, and in my experience it's not needed very often. Last 2 week holiday, not once.

 

So for the few occasions I might need to do it, I'll look where I'm going and try not to trip over the mooring loop 🙂

 

Like I keep saying it's all a tradeoff, you have to decide what is most important to you. I decided I'd rather have the spring line loops on the gunwale. You might decide differently. Neither is wrong... 😉

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

Just now, haggis said:

The extra mooring points act as springs but they also enable me to tie up and cast off safely 😀. I am not very tall and being a bit ancient I can neither reach the t stud from the bank nor quickly climb on and off a non secured boat. But I can reach the extra point at the front ( I do the front, Iain does the stern) from the bank and can secure the boat while standing on the bank. When casting off, I can't reach the t stud without climbing round the cratch but I can reach round to the extra mooring point and cast off.  Much safer all round ! 

Ok. That makes sense. 
So in your case it’s more about the ease of mooring up, and making it safer for you 👍

 

What I’m thinking is an extra line can be taken from the same T stud to an extra peg or goat chain, nappy pin etc to create the extra spring line. 

[IanD]

Just now, Goliath said:

Ok. That makes sense. 
So in your case it’s more about the ease of mooring up, and making it safer for you 👍

 

What I’m thinking is an extra line can be taken from the same T stud to an extra peg or goat chain, nappy pin etc to create the extra spring line. 

Correct 🙂

 

As I tried to explain, it allows using a pair of crossed mooring spikes (one through the eye of the other) at each end, which are then much more difficult to pull out, can resist pull in both directions, and avoid having angled ropes to the bank which multiply the force on the ropes as the boat moves. As you say, the alternative is two spikes at each end (or four goat chains or nappy pins instead of two) with ropes to the T stud, one to hold the boat in to the bank and one to act as a spring line. But single spikes pull out more easily than a pair of crossed ones, especially if someone decides it would be fun to untie your boat so it drifts across the canal. Yes I've had this happen, more than once... 😞

 

It just offers another possibility of how to moor up securely, which I think will be useful. If I decide I don't like them, they can be removed -- it's amazing what good welders can do, as shown by the fact that there used to be side doors where the front porthole now is in the photo I posted... 😉

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

4 minutes ago, IanD said:

I know, I've been there and done all that. But I'm not a single hander, and in my experience it's not needed very often. Last 2 week holiday, not once.

 

So for the few occasions I might need to do it, I'll look where I'm going and try not to trip over the mooring loop 🙂

 

Like I keep saying it's all a tradeoff, you have to decide what is most important to you. I decided I'd rather have the spring line loops on the gunwale. You might decide differently. Neither is wrong... 😉

If you have a crew you won’t be aware of the peculiarities for the single hander. 

I would expect (hope) there’ll be many more times, now that you have you own boat that you will single hand. 
You’ll find you’ve a few days free when no one else has and it’d be too good an opportunity to miss. 
 

The trip hazard won’t be a hazard for you anyway, you know it’s there and will take care. 

Of course it’s all compromise and trade offs, but I manage fine with the one T stud on the bow and 2 dollies on the stern. 
 

[IanD]

10 minutes ago, Goliath said:

If you have a crew you won’t be aware of the peculiarities for the single hander. 

I would expect (hope) there’ll be many more times, now that you have you own boat that you will single hand. 
You’ll find you’ve a few days free when no one else has and it’d be too good an opportunity to miss. 
 

The trip hazard won’t be a hazard for you anyway, you know it’s there and will take care. 

Of course it’s all compromise and trade offs, but I manage fine with the one T stud on the bow and 2 dollies on the stern. 
 

 

I very much doubt I'll be doing much or any single handing, my wife enjoys boating and doesn't work and shows no signs of dying just yet... 😉

 

Since we will be living on land as our primary residence and using the boat for (long) holidays -- either the two of us, or with a couple of family or friends -- I don't expect that I'll suddenly have the need to move the boat on my own, we'll either be cruising around on it or it'll be moored (probably in a marina) when we're not using it. I know about some of the difficulties of single-handing, I've often followed or travelled through locks with people doing it, and it's not easy on a system that wasn't designed for it -- swing bridges on the L&L, for example.

 

I too have managed in the past with a T stud on the bow and two dollies on the stern, but have sometimes wished there was somewhere to attach a spring line -- so I'm trying this out.

 

I've also managed in the past with a normal flat-plate rudder, but have sometimes wished that it steered better especially at big rudder angles -- so I'm trying out the Schilling rudder.

 

If you don't change anything, you never improve anything... 😉

Edited July 18, 2022 by IanD

[haggis]

24 minutes ago, Goliath said:

Ok. That makes sense. 
So in your case it’s more about the ease of mooring up, and making it safer for you 👍

 

What I’m thinking is an extra line can be taken from the same T stud to an extra peg or goat chain, nappy pin etc to create the extra spring line. 

Yes, a spring can either be two points on the boat or two on the bank. The extra point certainly makes it easier and safer for me but it seems to be the best way to stop the boat moving too

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

1 minute ago, haggis said:

Yes, a spring can either be two points on the boat or two on the bank. The extra point certainly makes it easier and safer for me but it seems to be the best way to stop the boat moving too

Yes, and all boats are different. 
My boat has little freeboard so often the lines are not running down from a great height, I think that can be a benefit. 
But usually I’ll just tie up with one line from the front and one from the back and don’t mind a little movement, it’s quite nice. 
If the boat is gonna bang about I find 1 extra line is usually enough to keep the boat in. 
 

But I totally get it now though 👍 that for some it’s safer not to have to lean out or step up high but be able tie to something easier to reach, so an extra T stud or cleat is dead handy. 

[IanD]

9 minutes ago, haggis said:

Yes, a spring can either be two points on the boat or two on the bank. The extra point certainly makes it easier and safer for me but it seems to be the best way to stop the boat moving too

 

Two on the boat/four on the bank (both ends!) also means you need 4 nappy pins or goat chains or bollards, if not using mooring spikes...

 

I did notice that quite a few trad boats (real ones, not replicas) have similar points for spring lines, often on the gunwale, so it can't be such a bad idea... 😉

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

11 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Two on the boat/four on the bank (both ends!) also means you need 4 nappy pins or goat chains or bollards, if not using mooring spikes...

 

I did notice that quite a few trad boats (real ones, not replicas) have similar points for spring lines, often on the gunwale, so it can't be such a bad idea... 😉

Ain’t they the hooks for when the butty and motor come together?

so they can snatch a line or something like that. 

[IanD]

3 minutes ago, Goliath said:

Ain’t they the hooks for when the butty and motor come together?

so they can snatch a line or something like that. 

That's not what I meant, I meant line loops on the gunwale like the ones I've got. I'll see if I can find some pictures...

 

Aha, got one -- same kind of loop in the same place as on mine. Maybe that's where Tim got the idea from... 😉

 

Edited July 18, 2022 by IanD

[Alan de Enfield]

59 minutes ago, Goliath said:

I’m a bit confused with the need for extra mooring points. 
I can see a possible advantage when tying to bollards. 
But if tying to Armco or putting pegs in the bank then the T stud and dollies are enough? 

 

But, on a narrowboat the argument is that you can run a spring-linr backwards from the T-Stud, or fowrads from the Dolly without it chafing on the cabin sides, the cry is always "you don't understand the shape of a NB doesn't allow for the use of springs". 

 

It does if the attachment points are set on the 'side' of the boat such as Haggis and others have done.

 

 

 

[Rob-M]

5 minutes ago, IanD said:

That's not what I meant, I meant line loops on the gunwale like the ones I've got. I'll see if I can find some pictures...

Only loops on the gunwale I've seen are towards the stern and used for breasting up with the butty, you can see the shackle in this picture of Scorpio.