Longer Boats Up Norf

[IanD]

31 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

 Not superior Helmsman, just never needed a bow thruster on my boat. As for your byewash, just steer into the byewash with some power on, when it pushes you over, your front is basically in the lock, put some power on and don’t worry about scrapping your boat, you obviously worry about scrapping your boat, but that’s why boats have rubbing strakes. In your case a bow thruster. Hate to think how your going to be like with your new boat.

 The advice that Northern boaters have given you to the original post is to go less then 60ft to be stress free. For some reason you want a 60ft, your boat so your decision. You could easily fit your interior inside a 59ft. Why not just go over the L&L, I take it you won’t be single handed?
 Maybe worth reading “Living the Dream by Trevor Pavitt” about doing the system on a 60ft.

 

 

  

I really wish you wouldn't assume that other people are a bit thick when it comes to boat handling. I've been taking boats into locks with byewashes on and off for getting on for forty years and am perfectly well aware of how to approach them, thank you very much -- but sometimes you can't push the stern across because it's already up against the bank and then it's crunch time, which a bow thruster can help avoid. And yes that's what rubbing strakes are for, but I'd prefer not to go crunch if at all possible, whether it's a hire boat or mine, because it offends me.

 

I'm also glad to know that you think I can fit everything into a boat a foot shorter, I wish I'd known that before spending months discussing this with Ricky, I could obviously have saved us a lot of time and effort by asking you... 😉

 

Why not just go over the L&L? Because I want to be able to cross all three canals across the Pennines, as I've said on several occasions, but you seem to have missed.

 

Does it occur to you that perhaps other people might have spent a lot more time than you have thinking about something, and find it annoying when you jump in with the assumption that you know better than they do, based on inadequate information?

 

I guess not... 😞

Edited April 25, 2022 by IanD

[PD1964]

31 minutes ago, IanD said:

I really wish you wouldn't assume that other people are a bit thick when it comes to boat handling. I've been taking boats into locks with byewashes on and off for getting on for forty years and am perfectly well aware of how to approach them, thank you very much -- but sometimes you can't push the stern across because it's already up against the bank and then it's crunch time, which a bow thruster can help avoid. And yes that's what rubbing strakes are for, but I'd prefer not to go crunch if at all possible, whether it's a hire boat or mine, because it offends me.

 

I'm also glad to know that you think I can fit everything into a boat a foot shorter, I wish I'd known that before spending months discussing this with Ricky, I could obviously have saved us a lot of time and effort by asking you... 😉

 

Why not just go over the L&L? Because I want to be able to cross all three canals across the Pennines, as I've said on several occasions, but you seem to have missed.

 

Does it occur to you that perhaps other people might have spent a lot more time than you have thinking about something, and find it annoying when you jump in with the assumption that you know better than they do, based on inadequate information?

 

I guess not... 😞

 Your base plate has probably not even been laid down yet and as you say your not collecting the boat for over a year. So please why bother asking questions on your new boat build, when it’s all been discussed and finalised with Ricky? You know what you want and what your getting, so hopefully no need for a year full of your build questions, especially with 40 years boating experience, you should know the answers. Enjoy.

Edited April 25, 2022 by PD1964

[cuthound]

11 hours ago, Slow and Steady said:

I expect that made some kind of loud humming noise as it tried, then blew a fuse?

 

No it just didn't work. Initially I thought the fuse had blown but that was intact 

 

When I took the motor out it was obvious that it had seized.

 

Full story here 

 

 

 

[IanD]

9 hours ago, PD1964 said:

 Your base plate has probably not even been laid down yet and as you say your not collecting the boat for over a year. So please why bother asking questions on your new boat build, when it’s all been discussed and finalised with Ricky? You know what you want and what your getting, so hopefully no need for a year full of your build questions, especially with 40 years boating experience, you should know the answers. Enjoy.

The only questions I've been asking were about whether 60' was still OK given the reports of changes to C&H locks, and the answer seems to be yes. And the the thread got diverted into bows, and from there to bow thrusters, and here we are in a familiar festival of mud-slinging... 😞

 

I'm not the one who is patronisingly advising other people on how to steer boats on the assumption that they don't know how to do it, or stating that bow thrusters are basically for numpties, or that "my bow is the best", or arrogantly suggesting that I know how to fit everything into a shorter boat in spite of knowing almost nothing about it... 😉

Edited April 26, 2022 by IanD

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

15 hours ago, IanD said:

 

Our stern bounced off -- not too hard, no damage -- the moored boat on the outside of the bend as I tried to get the stern round. The owner came out shouting abuse, saying we were the third boat that had hit him that afternoon.

 

I did ask him if that might just possibly be due to him mooring in a stupid place -- he wasn't alone, he was in the middle of a line of boats but on the outside of the bend with a reed bank on the inside -- but he insisted it was all my fault and threatened to report me to the hire base. I told him where to go...

 

A bow thruster is not a substitute for competent boat handling, but is still useful on occasions -- an unexpectedly strong cross-current from a byewash just below a lock is another one that springs to mind, even if you allow for it you can sometimes get caught out, because nobody's perfect... 😉

nothing too bad then

 

Half the fun and joy of steering is dealing with problems

i think if I had a bow thruster I’d just use it for the sake of it because I have

one

[IanD]

8 minutes ago, Goliath said:

nothing too bad then

 

Half the fun and joy of steering is dealing with problems

i think if I had a bow thruster I’d just use it for the sake of it because I have

one

I've only ever been on one boat which had one, and that was a hired wideboat with wheel steering which kind of needed it. And it was hydraulic so didn't do anything much unless you revved the engine, which is not helpful... 😞

 

If you know what you're doing then it's true that you don't need one for almost all the time, but over the years there have been quite a few occasions -- usually involving wind or cross-currents -- when one would have been really useful.

 

I'm also thinking ahead to when we might not be quite so sprightly and able to leap gazelle-like from boat to bank with a rope... 😉

Edited April 26, 2022 by IanD

[MtB]

16 minutes ago, Goliath said:

nothing too bad then

 

Half the fun and joy of steering is dealing with problems

i think if I had a bow thruster I’d just use it for the sake of it because I have

one

 

 

Yeah, you could use it instead of the hooter!

 

Y'know....

 

One ear-piercing screech: Steering to port

Two ear-piercing screeches: Steering to starboard

26 ear-piercing screeches: Stationary

Etc etc

[cuthound]

33 minutes ago, IanD said:

I've only ever been on one boat which had one, and that was a hired wideboat with wheel steering which kind of needed it. And it was hydraulic so didn't do anything much unless you revved the engine, which is not helpful... 😞

 

If you know what you're doing then it's true that you don't need one for almost all the time, but over the years there have been quite a few occasions -- usually involving wind or cross-currents -- when one would have been really useful.

 

I'm also thinking ahead to when we might not be quite so sprightly and able to leap gazelle-like from boat to bank with a rope... 😉

 

When I bought my boat I had been boating for about 40 years, of which 22 years were on shared ownership boats, so knew how to steer.

 

It came with a bow thruster, and that was my first experience of one.

 

The most use it gets is on tricky reverses, such as out of the "S" shaped basin between rows of moored boats at my nearest boatyard.

 

It is pretty ineffective against strong winds and currents.

 

I used it so much that it seized up from lack of use and I didn't get around to repairing it for three years. To prevent a recurrence I use it at least once a year now, even if the circumstances don't call for it!

Edited April 26, 2022 by cuthound
Phat phingers

[Guest]

37 minutes ago, Goliath said:

nothing too bad then

 

Half the fun and joy of steering is dealing with problems

i think if I had a bow thruster I’d just use it for the sake of it because I have

one

 

We didnt have one but Ive helmed a boat with one. They are great when reversing and minimise the number of short bursts of forward to corect the straying off course which some boats do when travelling backwards.

 

Cross posted with cuthound

[IanD]

39 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

When I bought my boat I had been boating for about 40 years, of which 22 years were on shared ownership boats, so knew how to steer.

 

It came with a bow thruster, and that was my first experience of one.

 

The most use it gets is on tricky reverses, such as out of the "S" shaped basin between rows of moored boats at my nearest boatyard.

 

It is pretty ineffective against strong winds and currents.

 

I used it so much that it seized up from lack of use and I didn't get around to repairing it for three years. To prevent a recurrence I use it at least once a year now, even if the circumstances don't call for it!

A lot of the bow thrusters fitted to narrowboats suffer from being rather too feeble and only being on/off (which may be linked), and also prone to overheating and failures due to damp or lack of maintenance -- they use cheap old-school brushed DC motors.

 

Nowadays you can get ones using brushless PMAC motors which are quieter, more powerful, variable speed,  better protected, and don't overheat -- even 48V ones if you happen to have a huge 48V battery bank 😉

 

https://www.cactusnav.com/vetus-bowpro574-thruster-57kgf-p-28466.html

https://www.cactusnav.com/vetus-bowpro764-thruster-76kgf-p-28470.html

 

Of course there's the usual problem -- doing things properly like this costs more money, which is why most narrowboats don't do it... 😞

Edited April 26, 2022 by IanD

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

29 minutes ago, IanD said:

doing things properly

..is not having a thruster 😃

[cuthound]

31 minutes ago, IanD said:

A lot of the bow thrusters fitted to narrowboats suffer from being rather too feeble and only being on/off (which may be linked), and also prone to overheating and failures due to damp or lack of maintenance -- they use cheap old-school brushed DC motors.

 

Nowadays you can get ones using brushless PMAC motors which are quieter, more powerful, variable speed,  better protected, and don't overheat -- even 48V ones if you happen to have a huge 48V battery bank 😉

 

https://www.cactusnav.com/vetus-bowpro574-thruster-57kgf-p-28466.html

https://www.cactusnav.com/vetus-bowpro764-thruster-76kgf-p-28470.html

 

Of course there's the usual problem -- doing things properly like this costs more money, which is why most narrowboats don't do it... 😞

 

Mine is a 12 volt 55kgf, so although it is a brushed DC motor, isn't far off the power of the 57kgf one you linked to.

 

Not had any issues with it overheating, but I rarely use it, and when I do it is only for a few seconds at a time.

 

Now that I have sorted out the bow thruster compartment condensation issues, by increasing winter ventilation to it, I have not had any further problems.

 

 

[IanD]

10 minutes ago, Goliath said:

..is not having a thruster 😃

...until it isn't... 😉

 

Exactly the same discussion as the "hairshirt old-school vs. modern all-mod-cons" boat argument -- different people want different things, neither is "wrong" 🙂

 

Though a boat cruising slowly down the cut using left and right bursts of bow thruster to keep straight and not hit the moored boats on either side is *definitely* wrong... 😞

Edited April 26, 2022 by IanD

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

People want but do they need 🤔

[Rob-M]

6 minutes ago, IanD said:

...until it isn't... 😉

 

Exactly the same discussion as the "hairshirt old-school vs. modern all-mod-cons" boat argument -- different people want different things, neither is "wrong" 🙂

 

Though a boat cruising slowly down the cut using left and right bursts of bow thruster to keep straight and not hit the moored boats on either side is *definitely* wrong... 😞

I met someone on a bend who dropped his wife off to pull the bows round, I checked if everything was ok and he told me he had lost steering.  He must have burnt out his bow thruster as he was using that rather than the tiller he had his hand on to steer round corners.

[IanD]

9 minutes ago, Goliath said:

People want but do they need 🤔

Define "need"...

 

Do people *need* an onboard TV, or Internet access, or a washing machine, or a comfortable bed or chairs/sofa, or a pumpout toilet, or many other things?

 

You can do without them ("hairshirt" boating) and many people choose to do this, but others prefer to have them on board ("all-mod-cons" boating). How is a bow thruster (or electric propulsion...) any different?

 

I really don't get why so many people today are so eager to attack people who want something different to them as being "wrong", it seems to be a symptom of society today encouraged by the internet -- and maybe even lockdown. Sad really, I'm sure more people used to have a "live-and-let-live" attitude towards others... 😞

Edited April 26, 2022 by IanD

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

I can only say I need a new hair shirt. 
 

[ditchcrawler]

16 minutes ago, Goliath said:

I can only say I need a new hair shirt. 
 

I would be happy with some hair, sod the shirt 

[cuthound]

3 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I would be happy with some hair, sod the shirt 

 

Me too😅🤣

 

 

20 minutes ago, Goliath said:

I can only say I need a new hair shirt. 
 

 

Ah, but do you want the latest all singing & dancing one or a traditional hair shirt?

Edited April 26, 2022 by cuthound
Phat phingers

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

[IanD]

Maybe you really need a merkin? 😉

[Midnight]

7 hours ago, IanD said:

The only questions I've been asking were about whether 60' was still OK given the reports of changes to C&H locks, and the answer seems to be yes. And the the thread got diverted into bows, and from there to bow thrusters, and here we are in a familiar festival of mud-slinging... 😞

 

I'm not the one who is patronisingly advising other people on how to steer boats on the assumption that they don't know how to do it, or stating that bow thrusters are basically for numpties, or that "my bow is the best", or arrogantly suggesting that I know how to fit everything into a shorter boat in spite of knowing almost nothing about it... 😉

 

Oh Ian I forgot to mention bow-thrusters are not allowed on the Calder Navigation you may get hate-mail. 

[IanD]

9 minutes ago, Midnight said:

 

Oh Ian I forgot to mention bow-thrusters are not allowed on the Calder Navigation you may get hate-mail. 

Oh dear. Better not get one then. And there was me thinking it would be useful to keep the bows central when going up short locks, instead of trying to use a shaft like one boater did... 😞

 

Edited April 26, 2022 by IanD

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

6 minutes ago, IanD said:

Oh dear. Better not get one then. And there was me thinking it would be useful to keep the bows central when going up short locks, instead of trying to use a shaft like one boater did... 😞

You’ll have to sit diagonal anyway…

 

 

 

(…if you fit in)

[IanD]

1 minute ago, Goliath said:

You’ll have to sit diagonal anyway…

 

(…if you fit in)

 

The stern will have to be over to one side to tuck in behind the bottom gate, the bows need to be in the middle because the cill is slightly curved...

 

(assuming going down backwards like here, where I lifted the picture from -- which some people have said isn't needed, so who knows...)