Converting to hybrid power... engine replacement etc?

[IanD]

2 hours ago, TandC said:

sooo....  at the risk of dragging this on!  

 

If you consider the particular situation / limitations:

 

Large, easily accessible cruiserstern engine bay 

No water-cooling infrastructure (skin tank etc) 

No real opportunity to adjust ballast

Solar limited by roof size to around 350w 

Battery bank limited to around x4  110amphr batteries (although if weight is saved - could be increased) 

Liveaboard - but probably relatively limited cruising compared to many 

 

Why would a serial arrangement not be worth exploring?   

 

Air-cooled diesel generator - running an electric motor.     

 

Even if you didn't have a huge solar array, or a massive battery bank to allow maximum cruising off the batteries - why would that arrangement be so unfeasible? 

 

Wouldn't running a diesel generator to generate the propulsion energy (electric ) be not dis-similar to just running a Lister?   Is that a really really inefficient way to use them (as in, as the sole power source, rather than supplementing shore-charge/solar charge).  

 

Is a generator, motor, whatever electric control wizardy - THAT much more expensive than the costs of acquiring a new water-called engine, installing it (and the construction of a skin-tank) plus the hospital silencer arrangement etc.   Even if buying a recon BMC engine from Calcutt Boats, that's still going to cost a weighty few bob to have the skin tank constructed etc.

 

How much is a diesel generator... a cooling radiator... a BellMarine motor... potentially additional batteries...  control kit....  ?

 

 

I promise I shall leave now....! 

 

You can get better efficiency/lower fuel consumption/lower C02 emissions with a series hybrid than a straight diesel, because the diesel is so lightly loaded in a narrowboat that its efficiency is terrible. If you find the other thread discussing this all the numbers are there; even if all the power comes from a generator the fuel/CO2 saving is about 40%, if half the power comes from solar it's 70%, if it all comes from solar (e.g. summer, not much cruising) it's 100%. Note that to get these savings lithium batteries are essential, both because of far higher efficiency than lead-acid and no need to run the generator for hours to fully charge/equalise them.

 

All of which sounds nice and eco-friendly, but in the big scheme of things narrowboats in the UK use 100x less fuel (and emit 100x less CO2) than cars, and the extra cost of the hybrid will never be made up in fuel unless you cruise for most of each year for many years -- and maybe not even then.

 

The reason people are going this route is "silent" cruising. In response to Nicks' comment about a well-silenced diesel being just as good, this ignores two things -- the first is that many people nowadays put the diesel generator in the bows and an engine 50' away from the steerer is a lot quieter than one underfoot, the other is that the generator only has to run for maybe 1 hour per day to provide power (with solar) for 8 hours cruising, the diesel has to run for 8 hours.

 

But the cost for a new installation is pretty high if done properly, at least £20k more than a diesel -- just the generator (cocooned marine diesel) costs more than a diesel engine (around £10k installed), then you have the motor/batteries/controller on top. You can cut corners by using cheaper belt-driven air-cooled motors instead of more expensive direct-drive water cooled ones, but these often whine (high speed, cooling air, belt drive) which can be annoying -- especially if silence is golden. New lithium batteries are expensive but have high usable capacity and long lifetime, cutting costs with lead-carbon or lead-acid traction cells brings back the problems of low efficiency and hours to equalise.

 

If you DIY using second-hand gear like Peter or Nick did then the cost is much less, but still considerably more than a diesel engine and gearbox.

 

If you want to buy a ready-made solution and install it yourself, the best option is probably the one from Waterworld (Bell Marine is 2x the price!)

 

https://www.energy-solutions.co.uk/products/waterworld

 

Their motor system is about £6k+VAT; total system cost including lead-carbon batteries and all electrics and generator is about £30k+VAT, see attached quote they sent to me.

Quotation Q-48743.pdf

Edited September 1, 2021 by IanD

[nicknorman]

54 minutes ago, IanD said:

You can get better efficiency/lower fuel consumption/lower C02 emissions with a series hybrid than a straight diesel, because the diesel is so lightly loaded in a narrowboat that its efficiency is terrible. If you find the other thread discussing this all the numbers are there; even if all the power comes from a generator the fuel/CO2 saving is about 40%, if half the power comes from solar it's 70%, if it all comes from solar (e.g. summer, not much cruising) it's 100%. Note that to get these savings lithium batteries are essential, both because of far higher efficiency than lead-acid and no need to run the generator for hours to fully charge/equalise them.

 

All of which sounds nice and eco-friendly, but in the big scheme of things narrowboats in the UK use 100x less fuel (and emit 100x less CO2) than cars, and the extra cost of the hybrid will never be made up in fuel unless you cruise for most of each year for many years -- and maybe not even then.

 

The reason people are going this route is "silent" cruising. In response to Nicks' comment about a well-silenced diesel being just as good, this ignores two things -- the first is that many people nowadays put the diesel generator in the bows and an engine 50' away from the steerer is a lot quieter than one underfoot, the other is that the generator only has to run for maybe 1 hour per day to provide power (with solar) for 8 hours cruising, the diesel has to run for 8 hours.

 

But the cost for a new installation is pretty high if done properly, at least £20k more than a diesel -- just the generator (cocooned marine diesel) costs more than a diesel engine (around £10k installed), then you have the motor/batteries/controller on top. You can cut corners by using cheaper belt-driven air-cooled motors instead of more expensive direct-drive water cooled ones, but these often whine (high speed, cooling air, belt drive) which can be annoying -- especially if silence is golden. New lithium batteries are expensive but have high usable capacity and long lifetime, cutting costs with lead-carbon or lead-acid traction cells brings back the problems of low efficiency and hours to equalise.

 

If you DIY using second-hand gear like Peter or Nick did then the cost is much less, but still considerably more than a diesel engine and gearbox.

 

If you want to buy a ready-made solution and install it yourself, the best option is probably the one from Waterworld (Bell Marine is 2x the price!)

 

https://www.energy-solutions.co.uk/products/waterworld

 

Their motor system is about £6k+VAT; total system cost including lead-carbon batteries and all electrics and generator is about £30k+VAT, see attached quote they sent to me.

Quotation Q-48743.pdf 34.32 kB · 2 downloads

A few points there - putting the generator at the front only reduces noise at the back - it increases it at the front! So I think it depends on how many people you usually have on the boat and where they sit. For us, the bow well deck is a place to relax in near silence save for the trickling of the water, whilst someone else is steering.

 

Yes lithium batteries are definitely the way to go, but that further increases cost and complexity.

 

As to overall efficiency I think it depends on how you use the boat and the size of the engine. If you are doing a lot of locks then there will be a better gain than if your usual cruising is on a river. In the same way that hybrid cars give good fuel consumption around town, but worse fuel consumption than a “normal” car on a long motorway run.

[Neil2]

3 hours ago, TandC said:

sooo....  at the risk of dragging this on!  

 

If you consider the particular situation / limitations:

 

Large, easily accessible cruiserstern engine bay 

No water-cooling infrastructure (skin tank etc) 

No real opportunity to adjust ballast

Solar limited by roof size to around 350w 

Battery bank limited to around x4  110amphr batteries (although if weight is saved - could be increased) 

Liveaboard - but probably relatively limited cruising compared to many 

 

Why would a serial arrangement not be worth exploring?   

 

Air-cooled diesel generator - running an electric motor.     

 

Even if you didn't have a huge solar array, or a massive battery bank to allow maximum cruising off the batteries - why would that arrangement be so unfeasible? 

 

Wouldn't running a diesel generator to generate the propulsion energy (electric ) be not dis-similar to just running a Lister?   Is that a really really inefficient way to use them (as in, as the sole power source, rather than supplementing shore-charge/solar charge).  

 

Is a generator, motor, whatever electric control wizardy - THAT much more expensive than the costs of acquiring a new water-called engine, installing it (and the construction of a skin-tank) plus the hospital silencer arrangement etc.   Even if buying a recon BMC engine from Calcutt Boats, that's still going to cost a weighty few bob to have the skin tank constructed etc.

 

How much is a diesel generator... a cooling radiator... a BellMarine motor... potentially additional batteries...  control kit....  ?

 

 

I promise I shall leave now....!  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not sure why you're concerned about ballast, if you went for say a Beta or Barrus say, or even a BMC 1.5, the weight difference is pretty negligible, in fact one of the smaller Betas would probably be lighter than your SR2, even after welding in a skin tank.  You are only 40' so it's not as though you need a huge engine.

 

I honestly think that any water cooled engine, with an Aquadrive a decent size silencer and a bit of soundproofing, would transform your boating experience so much you'd soon forget all about electric motors, hybrids etc. 

[IanD]

2 hours ago, nicknorman said:

A few points there - putting the generator at the front only reduces noise at the back - it increases it at the front! So I think it depends on how many people you usually have on the boat and where they sit. For us, the bow well deck is a place to relax in near silence save for the trickling of the water, whilst someone else is steering.

 

Yes lithium batteries are definitely the way to go, but that further increases cost and complexity.

 

As to overall efficiency I think it depends on how you use the boat and the size of the engine. If you are doing a lot of locks then there will be a better gain than if your usual cruising is on a river. In the same way that hybrid cars give good fuel consumption around town, but worse fuel consumption than a “normal” car on a long motorway run.

True about noise and boat layout. The reason people use the bow in a diesel boat is it's quieter, only the poor lonely steerer ("someone else") gets the earache. For a reverse layout electric boat people are much more likely to travel at the stern, it's more sociable with the steerer (not lonely!) and there's no noise, it's next to the kitchen for tea/coffee/gin/beer, not through the bathroom/bedroom, and there may be no big bow seating area (or none) with generator there. Don't forget the generator will only be running for short periods anyway, maybe 1hr/day average in summer (or 2hrs every other day and so on).

 

A series hybrid with lead-acids removes many of the plus points about going hybrid in the first place, not just efficiency and battery lifetime but also avoiding the need to run the generator for hours to get to 100% SoC regularly (low tail current) and prevent sulphation, which can easily double generator running time (or worse) compared to lithium. Using lead-acids saves money on the batteries but doesn't reduce the overall cost by that much when you add generator/motor/controller/inverter/solar which are probably 2/3 of the total cost.

 

The overall efficiency of course depends on usage, the figures I gave were for an 8 hour day with 4 hours canal cruising, 2 hours passing moored boats, 2 hours in locks, which seems a reasonable average assumption -- but it's easy to work out for a different case. But as I said these are really not the point, if you want to save money overall then stick with a diesel, if you want to reduce emissions choosing a car which is cleaner will have more environmental impact than an electric boat.

Edited September 1, 2021 by IanD

[IanD]

2 hours ago, Neil2 said:

 

Not sure why you're concerned about ballast, if you went for say a Beta or Barrus say, or even a BMC 1.5, the weight difference is pretty negligible, in fact one of the smaller Betas would probably be lighter than your SR2, even after welding in a skin tank.  You are only 40' so it's not as though you need a huge engine.

 

I honestly think that any water cooled engine, with an Aquadrive a decent size silencer and a bit of soundproofing, would transform your boating experience so much you'd soon forget all about electric motors, hybrids etc. 

 

That would certainly be a huge improvement from where he is now, probably at a cost of around £10k (new Beta 43 + all the bits + installation).

 

Spending the extra £20k or so on top of this to go electric/hybrid is a luxury to go even further down the "silent cruising" route, but many people would find this difficult to justify -- certainly as a modification to an existing boat, after all it's 3x the price! -- or simply can't afford it.

 

OTOH it's a cost increase of maybe 10% on a premium new-build boat, which puts a very different complexion on it and makes it easier to justify... 😉

 

(and lithium batteries are only a fraction of this, which makes them a no-brainer)

Edited September 1, 2021 by IanD

[jpcdriver]

3 hours ago, nicknorman said:

In the same way that hybrid cars give good fuel consumption around town, but worse fuel consumption than a “normal” car on a long motorway run.

Where did this information come from. Real world experience:

1) A 2012 Toyota Prius plug-in hybrid regularly achieved 60mpg on 70mph motorway petrol only runs (i.e. the battery not been charged prior to driving).

2) A 2019 Toyota Prius plug-in hybrid always achieves at least 70mpg on 70mph petrol only runs and has managed nearly 80mpg in warm weather.

 

Are there any petrol or diesel cars of a family 5 door size that can achieve that?

[Neil2]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

 

That would certainly be a huge improvement from where he is now, probably at a cost of around £10k (new Beta 43 + all the bits + installation).

 

Spending the extra £20k or so on top of this to go electric/hybrid is a luxury to go even further down the "silent cruising" route, but many people would find this difficult to justify -- certainly as a modification to an existing boat, after all it's 3x the price! -- or simply can't afford it.

 

OTOH it's a cost increase of maybe 10% on a premium new-build boat, which puts a very different complexion on it and makes it easier to justify... 😉

 

(and lithium batteries are only a fraction of this, which makes them a no-brainer)

 

That's exactly it, the guy I met with the Hybrid Marine boat said the same thing.  He had spent his life savings on a boat he expected to "turn his toes up on" and in that context it makes perfect sense.  But when I tried to find examples of retro fitting they are extremely rare and you would have to be very committed to electric propulsion to fork out for it especially given what other improvements/toys you could buy for the money.

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, jpcdriver said:

Where did this information come from. Real world experience:

1) A 2012 Toyota Prius plug-in hybrid regularly achieved 60mpg on 70mph motorway petrol only runs (i.e. the battery not been charged prior to driving).

2) A 2019 Toyota Prius plug-in hybrid always achieves at least 70mpg on 70mph petrol only runs and has managed nearly 80mpg in warm weather.

 

Are there any petrol or diesel cars of a family 5 door size that can achieve that?

From the internet. So it must be true! Real world mpg for a Prius is apparently about 50mpg which is not better than a decent ordinary ICE car. According to What Car.

[peterboat]

33 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

 

That's exactly it, the guy I met with the Hybrid Marine boat said the same thing.  He had spent his life savings on a boat he expected to "turn his toes up on" and in that context it makes perfect sense.  But when I tried to find examples of retro fitting they are extremely rare and you would have to be very committed to electric propulsion to fork out for it especially given what other improvements/toys you could buy for the money.

I converted mine for very little money the LifePo4s were 2.5k which is what I sold my engine for the Lynch D135 electric motor 900 squids, the gearbox 700, Curtis controller free the hand throttle 25 squids from Ebay on top of that cables, bilge blower and other stuff of no real expense. 

I reckon 6k did the job that's including a secondhand vetus genny.

Now I did all the work myself I still  have a 72 volt battery charger to buy which is another 500 squids, the solar I had already although I have added extra plus another Mppt controller. 

I suspect 10k will be a realistic figure using a mixture of new and secondhand parts and the labour is your own problem, which also means you know how it works!

I did my conversion for a number of reasons, noise, the price of diesel going up dramatically, the environmental impact of diesel engines and a 25% discount on my boat license. Lastly I believe that it's going to be increasingly difficult for diesel powered boats, it might not happen but I think it will. 

13 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

From the internet. So it must be true! Real world mpg for a Prius is apparently about 50mpg which is not better than a decent ordinary ICE car. According to What Car.

Nick my Honda insight gen 1 regularly did 80 plus mpg, which most ICE cars only dream of, the manual version was even more economical 

[wandering snail]

We were quoted £30,000 for a hybrid system on our boat. We're all diesel so pinning our greener alternative hopes on the availability and acceptability of HVO.

[nicknorman]

21 minutes ago, peterboat said:

 

Nick my Honda insight gen 1 regularly did 80 plus mpg, which most ICE cars only dream of, the manual version was even more economical 

One has to compare apples with apples. There is no doubt that a hybrid is at its best in slow and stop-start traffic, or if you plug it in before a journey and consider the mains leccy to be green. But in the case of the Prius, AIUI and according to What Car, the thing only propels itself on electricity-only below 43mph, so at motorway speeds the engine must be running and thus it’s hard to see how a hybrid system can be intrinsically more economical than a pure ICE under those conditions. Less mass of batteries to lug around for a start, not to mention the ecological impact of making the batteries.

Edited September 1, 2021 by nicknorman

[peterboat]

8 minutes ago, wandering snail said:

We were quoted £30,000 for a hybrid system on our boat. We're all diesel so pinning our greener alternative hopes on the availability and acceptability of HVO.

I use HVO it has a 10 year storage life which is perfik for my electric system with genny and loads of solar!

I don't think its accepted as zero emissions though so won't be allowed after 2035 to continue ICE in new boats 

[jpcdriver]

54 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

From the internet. So it must be true! Real world mpg for a Prius is apparently about 50mpg which is not better than a decent ordinary ICE car. According to What Car.

Well if you just believe What Car and the internet, fair enough. But I believe my petrol bills which correlate to the car's recorded information. This is what I truly get, without using any ECO modes either.

[jpcdriver]

29 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

One has to compare apples with apples. There is no doubt that a hybrid is at its best in slow and stop-start traffic, or if you plug it in before a journey and consider the mains leccy to be green. But in the case of the Prius, AIUI and according to What Car, the thing only propels itself on electricity-only below 43mph, so at motorway speeds the engine must be running and thus it’s hard to see how a hybrid system can be intrinsically more economical than a pure ICE under those conditions.

For the 2012 Prius plug-in the petrol engine always ran at over 56mph. The 2019 can easily do 70mph plus (well plus) on electric alone. However, the  economy figures I am quoting are from long journeys I have made when I have not been able to charge before hand so in pure hybrid mode. You need to learn a bit more about the systems involved. The ICE uses the Atkinson cycle for a start (rather than the Otto cycle) and then there is the regenerated energy from any slowing down. What people don't realise particularly about the Toyota systems is that the engine is always (at virtually any speed above walking pace) combining and switching between using the petrol and electric motors - it isn't just one or the other.

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, jpcdriver said:

For the 2012 Prius plug-in the petrol engine always ran at over 56mph. The 2019 can easily do 70mph plus (well plus) on electric alone. However, the  economy figures I am quoting are from long journeys I have made when I have not been able to charge before hand so in pure hybrid mode. You need to learn a bit more about the systems involved. The ICE uses the Atkinson cycle for a start (rather than the Otto cycle) and then there is the regenerated energy from any slowing down. What people don't realise particularly about the Toyota systems is that the engine is always (at virtually any speed above walking pace) combining and switching between using the petrol and electric motors - it isn't just one or the other.

Well no, I don't need to do anything thanks. But let's clear up one point, when you are on a motorway doing a steady 70 (so not the M6 or the M25 obvs!) along flat ground, does the engine start and stop or is it on all the time? If it is on all the time I can't see how it can be more economical than a conventional ICE car. It certainly can't be off all the time.

As to the Atkinson cycle its really just the otto cycle with different valve timing, or in modern cars variable valve timing. Much the same effect is achieved with using a small engine + turbo, which is of course why many modern economical ICE cars use ... a small engine + a turbo. And most modern cars have some degree of regen braking, although admitedly not to the same extent as a hybrid.

And yes I do realise that both the engine and the electric motor can be providing power at the same time. I am not completely stupid, even though you would like me to be.

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, jpcdriver said:

Well if you just believe What Car and the internet, fair enough. But I believe my petrol bills which correlate to the car's recorded information. This is what I truly get, without using any ECO modes either.

There are so many variables, mainly to do with the way the car is driven and the environment it is driven in. I am not disuputing your figures, my point is that it is pointless to compare someone's mpg with a different car's driven by a different person under different conditions, and then draw any conclusions about relative economy.

 

Oh and by the way, how long do the batteries last and how much does it cost to replace them? This has to be factored into any running cost calculations. Well unless you are the "buy a new car and throw it away after 3 years" type I suppose. But that definitely isn't good for the planet.

Edited September 1, 2021 by nicknorman

[jpcdriver]

8 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Well no, I don't need to do anything thanks. But let's clear up one point, when you are on a motorway doing a steady 70 (so not the M6 or the M25 obvs!) along flat ground, does the engine start and stop or is it on all the time? If it is on all the time I can't see how it can be more economical than a conventional ICE car. It certainly can't be off all the time.

Doing a steady 70mph on flat ground yes the engine will be  on all the time. For that period it is probably very similar to a normal ICE in consumption. However that is not the steady state conditions for the whole of a 200 mile motorway run. You made a very general assertion that hybrids "had worse fuel consumption than a “normal” car on a long motorway run", which from my experience is not true. I have driven Toyota hybrids since 2004 and even the 2004 model could get between 55 and 60mpg on a York to London journey and the later models have improved from that point.

 

If you don't want to learn anything more about the technologies, fair enough, but please don't continue propogating falsehoods out of your ignorance.

[Tony Brooks]

I suspect the driving style also affects hybrid fuel consumption V a conventional engine. Every time you put your boot down a conventional car enrichens the mixture to give good acceleration and prevent flat  spots. In a hybrid, it would simply switch in electrical power and probably leave the engine running at its most economical speed.

[pearley]

12 hours ago, wandering snail said:

We were quoted £30,000 for a hybrid system on our boat. We're all diesel so pinning our greener alternative hopes on the availability and acceptability of HVO.

For a narrowboat.

 

For a 60 X 10 we were quoted £48000 by Fischer Panda for a system with 20kw motor and 800 a/hr of Lead Carbon batteries reduced to £40000 for a 15kw motor and cheaper batteries.

 

Hybrid Marine quoted £38000 for a Beta 90 with 20kw of motor. 90 a bit OTT, they did say they could fit the two motor, 20kw system to a Beta 60 but it wouldn't save much money.

 

We also approached Lynch. They may have been cheaper but it was very difficult to pin them down to specifics.

 

Eventually went for B60 plus separate genset.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 2, 2021 by pearley

[peterboat]

16 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I suspect the driving style also affects hybrid fuel consumption V a conventional engine. Every time you put your boot down a conventional car enrichens the mixture to give good acceleration and prevent flat  spots. In a hybrid, it would simply switch in electrical power and probably leave the engine running at its most economical speed.

Correct Tony both my Hybrid Honda cars always ran the engine however in acceleration the electric motor helped at all speeds. Braking was initially regeneration which charged the batteries but also cut down on brake wear.

I serviced my I3 yesterday with 57k on the clock the brakes on the front are about half worn, on the rear they still look like new. The service for the electric side cost £9.20 for the pollen filters the Rex was a fiver for the oil filter and the 2.6 litres of oil was free from the garage. I had to reset the service for 2 years, I also boiled the brake fluid which tested as new so I didn't change it. MOT passed with no issues and I had to replace the 12 volts battery at 4 year old cost 74 squids from BMW, running costs so far for fuelling is nil ! This is a very cheap car to run and the underneath still looks like new.

[nb Innisfree]

FWIW our BMW i3 Rex, like Peter's, is a series hybrid with a 650cc petrol engine (33bhp max) powering a generator, at 70mph the generator just manages to keep up with electic propulsion and returns between approx 45 & 55mpg depending on weather conditions etc. Not very efficient drag at speed but excels at slower local driving. 

[ditchcrawler]

10 hours ago, nicknorman said:

  in modern cars variable valve timing. Much the same effect is achieved with using a small engine + turbo, which is of course why many modern economical ICE cars use ... a small engine + a turbo.  

Didn't the French come to that way of thinking about 50 years ago with small turbo engines

 

[IanD]

1 hour ago, pearley said:

For a narrowboat.

 

For a 60 X 10 we were quoted £48000 by Fischer Panda for a system with 20kw motor and 800 a/hr of Lead Carbon batteries reduced to £40000 for a 15kw motor and cheaper batteries.

 

Hybrid Marine quoted £38000 for a Beta 90 with 20kw of motor. 90 a bit OTT, they did say they could fit the two motor, 20kw system to a Beta 60 but it wouldn't save much money.

 

We also approached Lynch. They may have been cheaper but it was very difficult to pin them down to specifics.

 

Eventually went for B60 plus separate genset.

 

The Waterworld quote I posted earlier was £30k+VAT for 15kW motor/1000Ah lead-carbon, this included generator and solar -- I did a lot of investigation into all this a year or so back and this was the best option I found, other suppliers like Fischer-Panda/Bellmarine were considerably more expensive. Lynch weren't much (if any) cheaper but I didn't want a brushed DC belt-drive motor, direct-drive PMAC (all the above systems) is a more modern system with many advantages.

 

In the end I decided to get a boat built by Finesse who specialise in series hybrids and have the best system around, but the cost is higher still -- I don't know if they do retrofit, I suspect not because it's a hassle to modify a diesel boat to fit everything in and they're already booked out with new builds until 2023...

 

From a money point of view ripping out a diesel and retrofitting a series hybrid doesn't make sense unless you do it yourself on the cheap using secondhand parts; done commercially new kit is expensive, retrofitting adds more to the cost, and it won't add as much to the value of the boat as you spend. Fitting instead of a diesel to a new build makes more sense because the cost adder is proportionally much less, but you still need deep pockets -- I don't have a precise quote because the exact specification is not fixed yet, but I'm expecting a final bill of at least £200k...

Edited September 2, 2021 by IanD

[IanD]

11 hours ago, nicknorman said:

There are so many variables, mainly to do with the way the car is driven and the environment it is driven in. I am not disuputing your figures, my point is that it is pointless to compare someone's mpg with a different car's driven by a different person under different conditions, and then draw any conclusions about relative economy.

 

Oh and by the way, how long do the batteries last and how much does it cost to replace them? This has to be factored into any running cost calculations. Well unless you are the "buy a new car and throw it away after 3 years" type I suppose. But that definitely isn't good for the planet.

Batteries in cars which treat them properly (including cooling) like Tesla are now typically lasting 200k miles or more according to user forums (real experience not manufacturers claims), which is 25 years at the UK average mileage of 8000pa. Since this is 2x the lifetime of a typical car before it's scrapped, this doesn't seem to be an issue, unless you drive enormous distances. Even then BEV work out cheaper, see below.

 

Of course there are a few cases where the batteries fail prematurely and have to be replaced, just like some ICE vehicles have an engine blowup after a few years leading to a huge bill, but it's the overall statistics that matter. Annual running and maintenance costs -- including projected battery replacement if required -- for BEV are currently running at about half that of ICE.

[peterboat]

9 minutes ago, IanD said:

The Waterworld quote I posted earlier was £30k+VAT for 15kW motor/1000Ah lead-carbon, this included generator and solar -- I did a lot of investigation into all this a year or so back and this was the best option I found, other suppliers like Fischer-Panda/Bellmarine were considerably more expensive. Lynch weren't much (if any) cheaper but I didn't want a brushed DC belt-drive motor, direct-drive PMAC (all the above systems) is a more modern system with many advantages.

 

In the end I decided to get a boat built by Finesse who specialise in series hybrids and have the best system around, but the cost is higher still -- I don't know if they do retrofit, I suspect not because it's a hassle to modify a diesel boat to fit everything in and they're already booked out with new builds until 2023...

 

From a money point of view ripping out a diesel and retrofitting a series hybrid doesn't make sense unless you do it yourself on the cheap using secondhand parts; done commercially new kit is expensive, retrofitting adds more to the cost, and it won't add as much to the value of the boat as you spend. Fitting instead of a diesel to a new build makes more sense because the cost adder is proportionally much less, but you still need deep pockets -- I don't have a precise quote because the exact specification is not fixed yet, but I'm expecting a final bill of at least £200k...

They are going to do kits Ian, when I chatted to Riccy last I asked him about it, I think we have discussed this before it was with secondhand leaf batteries which should work well and are easily sourced