Converting to hybrid power... engine replacement etc?

[Thames Bhaji]

2 hours ago, IanD said:

In a series hybrid you can't go anywhere if your motor/controller fails,

Another thing I’m happy with on our series hybrid (wide beam barge) is that it’s twin prop. Once the gen and battery are there, adding a 2nd prop is relatively space / cost effective. I enjoy having the extra manoeuvrability of 2 props, plus I built the 2 sets of throttle > controller > motor etc to be entirely independent of each other, so in theory I’ve got good redundancy (neither side has failed to date, touch wood!). 

[Neil2]

12 minutes ago, PeterF said:

Not sure if it has been mentioned above. The August edition of Waterways World had an article where a narrowboat had the Isuzu 42 removed to be replaced by a series hybrid. The skin tank was reused for a Fischer Panda 8kVA genset which used a new inverter/charger to charge a 48V 630Ah lead carbon battery bank which powered a BellMarine 15kW motor which needed a new skin tank. The cost of the retrofit was listed as £50,000. The article quoted a 60% reduction in diesel consumption. The work was done professionally so that is why it is much higher than the figures given earlier.

 

Sheesh,  retro or new build these are pretty eye watering figures.  I can see the appeal but I can't imagine who is shelling out for these systems.  

 

Those BellMarine motors are rated at peak power, ie in reality the 15w motor is 10kw.  I don't know what that means in HP but if 15kw is about 20HP it suggests to me that even after forking out £50k the boat might be underpowered.  I'm happy to be educated on the characteristics of electric motors though, I know the torque characteristics are very different but not sure what this means in practice on a boat.

[IanD]

20 minutes ago, PeterF said:

Not sure if it has been mentioned above. The August edition of Waterways World had an article where a narrowboat had the Isuzu 42 removed to be replaced by a series hybrid. The skin tank was reused for a Fischer Panda 8kVA genset which used a new inverter/charger to charge a 48V 630Ah lead carbon battery bank which powered a BellMarine 15kW motor which needed a new skin tank. The cost of the retrofit was listed as £50,000. The article quoted a 60% reduction in diesel consumption. The work was done professionally so that is why it is much higher than the figures given earlier.

Fischer-Panda and Bellmarine are both very expensive for what they are, and the cost of a retrofit is high due to the amount of work needed -- but £50k is a horrendous figure for a non-lithium system...

[IanD]

19 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

 

Sheesh,  retro or new build these are pretty eye watering figures.  I can see the appeal but I can't imagine who is shelling out for these systems.  

 

Those BellMarine motors are rated at peak power, ie in reality the 15w motor is 10kw.  I don't know what that means in HP but if 15kw is about 20HP it suggests to me that even after forking out £50k the boat might be underpowered.  I'm happy to be educated on the characteristics of electric motors though, I know the torque characteristics are very different but not sure what this means in practice on a boat.

The torque is irrelevant, power is what matters -- and since the one time you need a lot of power for any length of time is going upriver against a current, this needs to be continuous power (at least 2 hour rating). 15kW/20hp seems to becoming accepted as enough for this, 10kW/13hp is a bit lacking if you want a "go-anywhere" boat that can cope with things like the Ribble Link.

 

I'm surprised that *anyone* would shell out this much to retrofit a system like this...

 

Most of the series hybrid customers are having a new boat built, and the increase in total cost over a diesel is then relatively small (much less than a retrofit), maybe 15% or so depending on boat and propulsion system choices. For this you also get onboard mains capable of powering electrical stuff that most boaters could only dream of -- if they wanted them in the first place... 😉

Edited September 2, 2021 by IanD

[MtB]

I think with retro-fit hybrid systems, once the technology matures and the consensus is approached on exactly how to do it, sales volumes will creep up and the price will correspondingly creep downwards. Possibly quite a lot. 

[Neil2]

5 minutes ago, IanD said:

The torque is irrelevant, power is what matters -- and since the one time you need a lot of power for any length of time is going upriver against a current, this needs to be continuous power (at least 2 hour rating). 15kW/20hp seems to becoming accepted as enough for this, 10kW is a bit lacking if you want a "go-anywhere" boat that can cope with things like the Ribble Link.

 

I'm surprised that *anyone* would shell out this much to retrofit a system like this...

 

Yes of course torque is irrelevant, I think I was getting mentally sidetracked, (not for the first time) but 20hp still seems a bit light to me for a go anywhere boat.  But I'm guessing we're looking at big price differentials as you go up the power scale. 

 

6 minutes ago, MtB said:

I think with retro-fit hybrid systems, once the technology matures and the consensus is approached on exactly how to do it, sales volumes will creep up and the price will correspondingly creep downwards. Possibly quite a lot. 

 

Not soon enough for me, I fear.     

[peterboat]

51 minutes ago, PeterF said:

Not sure if it has been mentioned above. The August edition of Waterways World had an article where a narrowboat had the Isuzu 42 removed to be replaced by a series hybrid. The skin tank was reused for a Fischer Panda 8kVA genset which used a new inverter/charger to charge a 48V 630Ah lead carbon battery bank which powered a BellMarine 15kW motor which needed a new skin tank. The cost of the retrofit was listed as £50,000. The article quoted a 60% reduction in diesel consumption. The work was done professionally so that is why it is much higher than the figures given earlier.

I had the wrong job! I should have been a ripoff marine engineer fitting electric drives 😱

[IanD]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

I think with retro-fit hybrid systems, once the technology matures and the consensus is approached on exactly how to do it, sales volumes will creep up and the price will correspondingly creep downwards. Possibly quite a lot. 

Maybe, but the problem is that a diesel generator (engine+alternator+control system) plus a big electric motor plus a high-power motor controller plus a big lithium battery bank inherently costs a lot more than a diesel engine -- it's the same problem as for hybrid cars. BEVs make sense because they can get rid of one of the most expensive bits (the diesel generator) so the cost will cross over with ICE in a few years, but the same can't happen for boats until -- like BEVs -- there are charging stations everywhere.

 

As in so many other areas, if you want cheap energy/power then fossil fuels are your friend, which is why the world is hooked on them. There's just one teeny tiny problemette...

[nicknorman]

I wonder if in 20 years time we will be all electric, or running on hydrogen? The latter seems well suited to narrowboats.

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Neil2 said:

 

Yes of course torque is irrelevant, I think I was getting mentally sidetracked, (not for the first time) but 20hp still seems a bit light to me for a go anywhere boat.  But I'm guessing we're looking at big price differentials as you go up the power scale.

 

 

There's a discussion on another thread about this. The engines fitted to boats today are really bigger than they need to be to keep noise and vibration down at normal cruising revs -- 20hp was considered plenty in "the old days" even when fully loaded and towing a butty, but these were bigger much slower-speed engines which were happy to run flat-out all day without deafening the steerer or shaking the boat to bits, in fact some people think they actually sound nice 😉

 

The most power-demanding thing anyone in a narrowboat is likely to do nowadays is the Ribble Link, and 20hp has been reported as being plenty by several people -- and if you look at the CART requirements for boat speed in deep water to do the link and plug numbers into the Vicprop online calculator, this agrees. But for sure this needs to be maintained for at least a couple of hours, so the system needs to take continuous rating into account not peak, and many hybrid systems on sale don't do this.

 

The problem is not power as such, it's that if you want the motor to be direct drive with a non-egg-beater prop this means relatively low rpm, and this needs a big motor which is not cheap -- the 15kW/1080rpm one Finesse uses weighs about 50kg. The other issue is that to avoid nasty electrical safety requirements on the installation the battery voltage needs to stay below about 50V nominal, so even 15kW means 300A out of the batteries (and over 400A out of the motor controller). Cars avoid these problems by using much higher voltages (typically 400V) and higher-speed motors (since these have to be geared anyway to drive the wheels) which makes it easy to achieve much higher power levels, but then they spend a fortune developing customised hardware and safety systems to deal with the high voltages.

[MtB]

Just now, nicknorman said:

I wonder if in 20 years time we will be all electric, or running on hydrogen? The latter seems well suited to narrowboats.

 

Too short a timescale. 

 

My bet is in 20 years most boats will still be running on diesel or HVO, with an expanding proportion of hybrid systems. Pundits will still be waffling about how hydrogen is the fuel of the future. 

 

CRT will have fitted charging points in a handful of honeypot locations, and be yet again replacing all the masses of signs saying how great they are and be on their fourth or fifth £1m corporate rebranding. 

[IanD]

4 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

I wonder if in 20 years time we will be all electric, or running on hydrogen? The latter seems well suited to narrowboats.

The problem with hydrogen is distribution and storage which is expensive per site; OK for concentrated fleet depots (e.g. bus garages) which get through huge amounts and there are only a few of, much worse for car refuelling stations (lots more of them, each with much lower throughput), and completely uneconomical for boats (lots needed at regular intervals, each with tiny throughput).

[MtB]

23 minutes ago, IanD said:

As in so many other areas, if you want cheap energy/power then fossil fuels are your friend, which is why the world is hooked on them. There's just one teeny tiny problemette...

 

Yes! All the cars, busses, lorries, ships and aeroplanes need weaning off it. 

 

As you have pointed out many times, every big helps, every little (e.g.canal boats) makes bugger all difference. 

[IanD]

11 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Too short a timescale. 

 

My bet is in 20 years most boats will still be running on diesel or HVO, with an expanding proportion of hybrid systems. Pundits will still be waffling about how hydrogen is the fuel of the future. 

 

CRT will have fitted charging points in a handful of honeypot locations, and be yet again replacing all the masses of signs saying how great they are and be on their fourth or fifth £1m corporate rebranding. 

 

Given the lifetime of boats (and the cost of retrofitting even in future as long as generators are needed) I agree, diesels running on HVO will still be common.

 

The recharging points issue is an interesting one which could easily be solved if the government (and CART) wanted to, because actually the number of required stations on the canals is very small -- probably no more than a few hundred -- which is negligible compared to the 500000 that are reckoned to be needed for BEVs, and the required capacity/charging rate is lower too. Even if the government didn't want to pay for them, it would be trivial to make it a condition of the private sector being awarded contracts to build BEV charging stations that they fund (for example) one canal charging station per 1000 road ones.

 

But without some pressure like this from government (or them paying for it, yeah  right...) there's no incentive to install them and CART don't have the money... 😞

 

6 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Yes! All the cars, busses, lorries, ships and aeroplanes need weaning off it. 

 

As you have pointed out many times, every big helps, every little (e.g.canal boats) makes bugger all difference. 

 

Absolutely true. But the cost of fixing the problem for canals is also 1000x lower than fixing it for cars, and then nobody would need onboard gennys, electric boats would be cheaper than diesels, and the canals would be quiet and fume-free again. Dream on...

Edited September 2, 2021 by IanD

[Neil2]

8 hours ago, IanD said:

 

There's a discussion on another thread about this. The engines fitted to boats today are really bigger than they need to be to keep noise and vibration down at normal cruising revs -- 20hp was considered plenty in "the old days" even when fully loaded and towing a butty, but these were bigger much slower-speed engines which were happy to run flat-out all day without deafening the steerer or shaking the boat to bits, in fact some people think they actually sound nice 😉

 

The most power-demanding thing anyone in a narrowboat is likely to do nowadays is the Ribble Link, and 20hp has been reported as being plenty by several people -- and if you look at the CART requirements for boat speed in deep water to do the link and plug numbers into the Vicprop online calculator, this agrees. But for sure this needs to be maintained for at least a couple of hours, so the system needs to take continuous rating into account not peak, and many hybrid systems on sale don't do this.

 

The problem is not power as such, it's that if you want the motor to be direct drive with a non-egg-beater prop this means relatively low rpm, and this needs a big motor which is not cheap -- the 15kW/1080rpm one Finesse uses weighs about 50kg. The other issue is that to avoid nasty electrical safety requirements on the installation the battery voltage needs to stay below about 50V nominal, so even 15kW means 300A out of the batteries (and over 400A out of the motor controller). Cars avoid these problems by using much higher voltages (typically 400V) and higher-speed motors (since these have to be geared anyway to drive the wheels) which makes it easy to achieve much higher power levels, but then they spend a fortune developing customised hardware and safety systems to deal with the high voltages.

 

Having done the Link myself I came to the conclusion that you can't have too much power...

 

But the two scariest moments I have had on a narrowboat were on the Trent, and the Avon, where we got caught going upstream after heavy rain.  Even if you are risk aware - and I am highly risk aware - if you do a lot of boating you can't avoid those situations where you need total confidence your engine will get you out of trouble.

 

If we are talking about the old days, then of course boats were designed more efficiently to work with low power units.  The modern narrowboat is designed for maximum cabin space and if it needs a 50HP engine to push it along, so what.  I remember having a conversation with Peter Nicholls along these lines, I think one of the reasons he got out of the narrowboat market was because fewer and fewer buyers appreciated the virtues of well designed hulls.  

 

But, these issues are I suspect of no interest to the majority of new narrowboat buyers.  The vast majority of boats do very little if any cruising, so if you expect to be moored up in a marina attached to shore power most of the time, it's difficult to make a case for spending an extra £25-30k on electric propulsion.    

 

 

[peterboat]

11 hours ago, StephenA said:

 

Which pretty much puts it out of the reach of a large number of boaters, actually probably the majority of those who will have to replace existing ICE systems in time. Admittedly costs will come down but they'd have to fall a long long way if there isn't going to a huge reduction in boat numbers as they are lifted out and cut up for scrap.

 

And of course it doesn't solve the zero emissions rules that are going to be enforced.

 

 

 

You are right it doesn't sort out zero emissions, that's why I have 4.6kw of solar with the genny as a backup, as Ian says charging points are the way forward but I can't see it happening. 

[phantom_iv]

11 minutes ago, peterboat said:

You are right it doesn't sort out zero emissions, that's why I have 4.6kw of solar with the genny as a backup, as Ian says charging points are the way forward but I can't see it happening. 

 

One issue here is that the sort of battery packs people are putting in their boats might not take too well to 50kw+ Rapid charging we see in the vehicle world, so it's an overnight job I'd guess at the moment. Unless we need to get an extra skin tank welded in to cool the batteries 🤔

[peterboat]

15 minutes ago, phantom_iv said:

 

One issue here is that the sort of battery packs people are putting in their boats might not take too well to 50kw+ Rapid charging we see in the vehicle world, so it's an overnight job I'd guess at the moment. Unless we need to get an extra skin tank welded in to cool the batteries 🤔

I have 36kwhs of LifePo4s which are ex electric bus so 50 kw no issues, not that I would bother as solar does my needs normally 

[nicknorman]

58 minutes ago, phantom_iv said:

 

One issue here is that the sort of battery packs people are putting in their boats might not take too well to 50kw+ Rapid charging we see in the vehicle world, so it's an overnight job I'd guess at the moment. Unless we need to get an extra skin tank welded in to cool the batteries 🤔

Generally you can charge lithium batteries at 1C without them getting hot. So about 75% of a full charge in an hour, another hour for the remaining 25%.

[phantom_iv]

1 minute ago, nicknorman said:

Generally you can charge lithium batteries at 1C without them getting hot. So about 75% of a full charge in an hour, another hour for the remaining 25%.

 

But that would mean at least an hour of charging at once - in an ideal world you'd be able to fill up with electricity while filling the water tank (since I guess many people would require both on comparable timescales), which would mean sub-30 minute charges to minimise inconvenence - or to put it another way the faster the chargers are the fewer you need to install

[nicknorman]

1 minute ago, phantom_iv said:

 

But that would mean at least an hour of charging at once - in an ideal world you'd be able to fill up with electricity while filling the water tank (since I guess many people would require both on comparable timescales), which would mean sub-30 minute charges to minimise inconvenence - or to put it another way the faster the chargers are the fewer you need to install

True but there is a happy medium. My point was against you saying the alternative was overnight. I suspect even if you have cooling, charging normal Li cells at 4C is going to shorten their lives significantly.

[Chris G]

16 hours ago, IanD said:

A series hybrid allows a generator to be used only when needed, and this always runs at full power when it's on to give maximum efficiency. System losses are small *if* lithium batteries are used, no equalisition needed. One downside is that all the power has to come from the electric motor and motors/controllers that can sustain this (typically 15kW) are expensive, and a lot of suppliers penny-pinch here. Generator is low noise anyway and can be placed anywhere e.g. in bow away from steerer, giving a "silent stern". The most expensive system but the one with the biggest advantages, especially noise and low generator running hours, service intervals (every 250 hours running?) will probably be a year or more even for a boat which cruises full-time.

 

However, is 15kw enough for a tidal river (Thames, Trent, Severn, Ribble)? I very much doubt it: so for tidal work with an "electric" boat you probably need a parallel hybrid with a big engine (Beta 38 or 43).

[IanD]

2 hours ago, Neil2 said:

 

Having done the Link myself I came to the conclusion that you can't have too much power...

 

But the two scariest moments I have had on a narrowboat were on the Trent, and the Avon, where we got caught going upstream after heavy rain.  Even if you are risk aware - and I am highly risk aware - if you do a lot of boating you can't avoid those situations where you need total confidence your engine will get you out of trouble.

 

If we are talking about the old days, then of course boats were designed more efficiently to work with low power units.  The modern narrowboat is designed for maximum cabin space and if it needs a 50HP engine to push it along, so what.  I remember having a conversation with Peter Nicholls along these lines, I think one of the reasons he got out of the narrowboat market was because fewer and fewer buyers appreciated the virtues of well designed hulls.  

 

But, these issues are I suspect of no interest to the majority of new narrowboat buyers.  The vast majority of boats do very little if any cruising, so if you expect to be moored up in a marina attached to shore power most of the time, it's difficult to make a case for spending an extra £25-30k on electric propulsion.    

 

 

I know Finesse have designed their hulls with Jonathan Wilson to minimise required power, I don't know if other suppliers have. According to Vicprop 15kW/20hp in a 60' narrowboat gives 7.4mph in deep water, 30kW/40hp gives 9.4mph (and 3kW/4hp gives 4mph for cruising). I'd have said that if you need the extra 2mph you're in big trouble whatever happens because there must be one hell of a current and almost certainly red boards on any UK river...

 

A much worse problem is if the motor/controller can't sustain full power for any length of time, some of the ones out there will lose half the power after a couple of minutes. This is the last thing you want, to get out on a river and think that it's all OK at full power, then when you're committed and it's too late to change your mind the motor power drops. Like a diesel with an undersized skin tank, but happens much faster... 😞

 

You're absolutely right about many (most?) narrowboat buyers, they don't do much cruising and will probably never go upstream on the Trent or the Ribble Link so this doesn't matter to them, it's just a cheap place to live so they certainly won't pay for a hybrid boat. OTOH people who are getting these new boats built (the most likely market for hybrids because of the cost) are much more likely to go out cruising (because a cheap place to live it certainly ain't!), so having enough power is likely to be much more important to them.

37 minutes ago, Chris G said:

However, is 15kw enough for a tidal river (Thames, Trent, Severn, Ribble)? I very much doubt it: so for tidal work with an "electric" boat you probably need a parallel hybrid with a big engine (Beta 38 or 43).

Evidence from boaters says that 15kW/20hp used properly (a decent hull, not a brick) and sustainable for at least a couple of hours is fine, even for the Ribble Link and upstream on rivers like the Trent (not under red boards).

 

If you want to go somewhere with stronger currents than these like tidal estuaries or the sea or rivers on red boards then a narrowboat is probably the wrong craft to be in...

Edited September 3, 2021 by IanD

[IanD]

43 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

True but there is a happy medium. My point was against you saying the alternative was overnight. I suspect even if you have cooling, charging normal Li cells at 4C is going to shorten their lives significantly.

It's possible because newer cars can do it, but needs very sophisticated (and expensive!) electronics and cooling systems -- and means using HV batteries (400V or now 800V) to reduce losses, with big safety issues.

 

It's unlikely that boaters would ever need to fast-charge even 10% to 90% SoC (would you run down to 10% and rely on the only charge point within reach still working?), a more typical 40% to 80% can be done in less than 30min at 1C. But even this probably won't happen because the cost of the charging equipment on the boat rises as the maximum current does, so any charging rate higher than the motor power rating is unlikely. If you have a 15kW motor and a 35kWh battery, you won't want to charge faster than about 0.4C-0.5C -- which means about an hour for a typical charge, and no battery cooling, and no added drive system cost. Still needs a 65A mains feed though...

 

(cars have much higher power higher voltage motors, can typically discharge at up to 4C so fast charging is almost "free")

 

If you're in such a hurry that you *have* to fill your water tank *and* recharge in 30mins, maybe a canal is the wrong place for you and you should be on a motorway? 😉

 

(also if you have a decent size tank, how many water points will fill it up in 30m? Not a lot from my experiences, a watering can would be faster than some water points...)

 

P.S. Nick, "you" in the Yorkshire sense, I'm not aiming at you in person 😉

Edited September 3, 2021 by IanD

[IanD]

4 hours ago, IanD said:

I know Finesse have designed their hulls with Jonathan Wilson to minimise required power, I don't know if other suppliers have. According to Vicprop 15kW/20hp in a 60' narrowboat gives 7.4mph in deep water, 30kW/40hp gives 9.4mph (and 3kW/4hp gives 4mph for cruising). I'd have said that if you need the extra 2mph you're in big trouble whatever happens because there must be one hell of a current and almost certainly red boards on any UK river...

 

Evidence from boaters says that 15kW/20hp used properly (a decent hull, not a brick) and sustainable for at least a couple of hours is fine, even for the Ribble Link and upstream on rivers like the Trent (not under red boards).

 

From CART guidance on the Ribble Link:

 

As you will be sailing in tidal waters for some of your journey you must ensure that your boat is capable
of travelling comfortably at a minimum of 5 knots (approx. 6 miles per hour) in still waters.

 

15kW/20hp meets this comfortably with some margin. In fact if you believe the calculator and are happy with no margin 10hp is enough, but I wouldn't risk it...

Edited September 3, 2021 by IanD