Converting to hybrid power... engine replacement etc?

[Neil2]

There is that company Marine Enterprises in Dorset who often have reconditioned engines but in particular they sell ex lifeboat Bukh engines many of which have never actually been used, and these also have the original Marinegear gearboxes, I think Bukh now sell them with a much inferior PRM 120.  A DV 24 in place of a Lister would transform the boat, especially if mated to a big silencer. 

 

What I would urge anyone to do if doing an engine swap though is fork out for an Aquadrive or Python drive - assuming there is room to fit one - apart from the alignment advantages they eliminate a lot of transmitted vibration and hence noise.   

[nicknorman]

Can’t remember if I mentioned it on here, but a couple of weeks ago we had Felonious Mongoose in the marina. That was one of the first hybrid boats, reviewed in the canal mags and a Crick showboat. Under new ownership, the guy bought it a while ago but got stuck with the Covid lockdown etc and has only recently started using it. He came into the marina for “respite” from CCing with electrical problems. The chap from Springwood Haven came out and diagnosed a failed alternator and a blown mega fuse. Turns out the 48v battery bank is split into 2 sections of 24v each and one side hadn't been getting charged.

 

He then decided to stay a while on shore power. He was moored nearly opposite us and I noticed loud gurgling noises and steam coming from a small skin fitting at the back. I mentioned it to the chap and he said “yea, it does that sometimes, not sure what it is or why”. I was suspicious it was the batteries and noted that, despite having been in the marina for several days, the shore bollard meter was ticking over at about 3kw and apparently no, the water heater wasn’t on.

 

I went back later and said I was a bit worried for his boat (not to mention that aforesaid vent was pointing at our boat!) and had he checked the temperature of the batteries? He did, and said they were very hot. Turns out that when he fired up the hybrid system, the battery temperature was showing as 58C. Which is pretty hot! The steam was literally boiling (or at least steaming) battery electrolyte. Presumably one or more shorted cells. I did try to have a look but all the (2v) cells are wired neatly with plastic caps on everything so I couldn’t easily measure individual cell voltages and gave up. He had unplugged it by then but the batteries were nearly too hot to touch. I advised him to water the batteries (there is a plumbed-in watering system) which he did. He also mentioned that he had never used the electric propulsion, just run on diesel.

 

Whilst perhaps he could identify the one or two duff cells and replace them, that would put new cells in series with 10 year old cells, probably not a good idea. So he would be left with around £8k to replace all the cells.

 

I felt rather sorry for him because he was a nice guy but totally out of his depth electrically.

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

 

 

I felt rather sorry for him because he was a nice guy but totally out of his depth electrically.

I think this could also be true of anyone buying your boat with its electrical system. You know it well but the average boat yard I think would struggle if it wasn't all working OK. Boats are heading where cars have gone, I did everything on the series 3 Landrover, I don't touch the Citroen 

[nicknorman]

27 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I think this could also be true of anyone buying your boat with its electrical system. You know it well but the average boat yard I think would struggle if it wasn't all working OK. Boats are heading where cars have gone, I did everything on the series 3 Landrover, I don't touch the Citroen 

Yes I think you are right! Although we can’t see ourselves selling it - it’s part of the family! Plus, 10 years later the Empirbus system has been faultless apart from one very early hiccup (famous last words). As to the Li system I’ve designed and installed, I do have a spare of each device (the alternator controller and the BMS) but ultimately it would be quite easy to rip it all out and replace with lead acid batteries - just need to undo 3 screws on the alternator and replace my modified brush set with the standard one with integral regulator, which is lurking in the cupboard.

 

Worse problem is that I've just turned 65 and Jeff is only 47 so when I die, he will be a bit scuppered! He keeps asking me to write a manual for it all, but I am reluctant because if I do, he will have no motivation to keep me alive in my dotage!

 

As to cars, I do everything on my 2016 Skoda Superb 280tsi, but I have swapped my spanners for a laptop and interface. You have to move with the times, or get left behind!

Edited August 31, 2021 by nicknorman

[ditchcrawler]

55 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

 

 

Worse problem is that I've just turned 65 and Jeff is only 47 so when I die, he will be a bit scuppered! He keeps asking me to write a manual for it all, but I am reluctant because if I do, he will have no motivation to keep me alive in my dotage!

 

As to cars, I do everything on my 2016 Skoda Superb 280tsi, but I have swapped my spanners for a laptop and interface. You have to move with the times, or get left behind!

I'm left behind, a little older than you and really can't be bothered to get my head round it or even try to. I doubt I will ever get round to changing to Lithium. I am putting off even changing the thrust bearing on the propshaft as well as the rudder bearing.

[nb Innisfree]

When I was 65 I was full of life, energy and enthusiasm, fit fast and agile. Now at 74 what with some sort of neurological condition and chronic post viral fatigue I'm rapidly turning into a doddery old fart unable to muster any enthusiasm, but I can drive OK which I enjoy and I'm still happy funnily enough. 

 

Not lost my marbles yet, marbles yet, marbles

[ditchcrawler]

50 minutes ago, nb Innisfree said:

When I was 65 I was full of life, energy and enthusiasm, fit fast and agile. Now at 74 what with some sort of neurological condition and chronic post viral fatigue I'm rapidly turning into a doddery old fart unable to muster any enthusiasm, but I can drive OK which I enjoy and I'm still happy funnily enough. 

 

Not lost my marbles yet, marbles yet, marbles

I find the last 5 years have been a big step

[nicknorman]

Thanks guys, you are really cheering me up on my 65th birthday!

[Ray T]

18 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Thanks guys, you are really cheering me up on my 65th birthday!

Nick, I can give you a few years but I am not "old school," I am "good school." 

Not every baby needs "throwing out with the bath water."

[MtB]

21 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Thanks guys, you are really cheering me up on my 65th birthday!

 

Happy Birthday Nick! 

[nicknorman]

3 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Happy Birthday Nick! 

Thanks. What is depressing is that I’m now an old age pensioner but I don’t get my state pension until next year. So unfair!

[MtB]

6 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Thanks. What is depressing is that I’m now an old age pensioner but I don’t get my state pension until next year. So unfair!

 

My unpleasant shock was at 60 the chemist refusing to take payment for a prescription. I knew my birthday had just passed but I thought at the time it was 59th, and he said nope, computa sez u r 60! 

[ditchcrawler]

16 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Thanks. What is depressing is that I’m now an old age pensioner but I don’t get my state pension until next year. So unfair!

When do you get your winter fuel allowance or should that be winter fool allowance?

 

[nicknorman]

17 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

My unpleasant shock was at 60 the chemist refusing to take payment for a prescription. I knew my birthday had just passed but I thought at the time it was 59th, and he said nope, computa sez u r 60! 

What’s a prescription charge? (resident in Scotland).

[MtB]

Just now, nicknorman said:

What’s a prescription charge? (resident in Scotland).

 

Ah, that's where they charge you £40 every three months for your BP tabs if you live anywhere warm and civilised. 

 

Except nowadays they insist on issuing a new prescription for only 28 tabs of each, so 13 times a year I now get free BP medication!  

[nicknorman]

13 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

When do you get your winter fuel allowance or should that be winter fool allowance?

 

Same as state pension, so it will be next winter.

[Neil2]

48 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Same as state pension, so it will be next winter.

 

Another one of those "we have no plans to change..." political statements that you can guarantee means the exact opposite.  The qualifying age went up from 62 to 66 within two years of the government assuring us it wouldn't.

 

Now there's this veiled threat of the triple lock being abolished despite a clear Tory manifesto commitment to keep it.

 

Any wonder that politicians are held in such low regard.

 

 

[peterboat]

8 hours ago, TandC said:

I wouldn't say that I'm not...  but I am conscious of the limitations on the boat and I am not sure of the arrangements. 

 

A hybrid engine is out - too expensive. 

 

What is involved in your system?   Does it require any water-cooled components to install?  Or is it something that could be installed in an engine bay... no need for skin tank etc? 

 

How does your diesel generator perform alongside a modern water-cooled engine....   ?  

 

Is it a ridiculous idea to consider convert to a serial electric motor, when the maximum capacity would be say 660amp hours of batteries (weight/space in engine bay is the limiting factor)?

 

I'd not even be that fussed about long periods of only-electric silent running.   If the diesel generator was quiet enough, why not just use it as an alternative to achieve a quieter propulsion?  

 

I mean, if you're going to power the boat using a filthy inefficient diesel Lister engine, why not use a diesel generator to run an electric motor?   That had been my original train of thought when I opened this can of worms!!

 

 

 

Simple stuff motor air cooled genny uses a 140 litre heat store and radiators to cool itself. I have a lot of solar 4.6kw so the genny is hardly needed and the batteries will do 10 hours without sun and on a sunny day I cruise on solar. 

[peterboat]

6 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Can’t remember if I mentioned it on here, but a couple of weeks ago we had Felonious Mongoose in the marina. That was one of the first hybrid boats, reviewed in the canal mags and a Crick showboat. Under new ownership, the guy bought it a while ago but got stuck with the Covid lockdown etc and has only recently started using it. He came into the marina for “respite” from CCing with electrical problems. The chap from Springwood Haven came out and diagnosed a failed alternator and a blown mega fuse. Turns out the 48v battery bank is split into 2 sections of 24v each and one side hadn't been getting charged.

 

He then decided to stay a while on shore power. He was moored nearly opposite us and I noticed loud gurgling noises and steam coming from a small skin fitting at the back. I mentioned it to the chap and he said “yea, it does that sometimes, not sure what it is or why”. I was suspicious it was the batteries and noted that, despite having been in the marina for several days, the shore bollard meter was ticking over at about 3kw and apparently no, the water heater wasn’t on.

 

I went back later and said I was a bit worried for his boat (not to mention that aforesaid vent was pointing at our boat!) and had he checked the temperature of the batteries? He did, and said they were very hot. Turns out that when he fired up the hybrid system, the battery temperature was showing as 58C. Which is pretty hot! The steam was literally boiling (or at least steaming) battery electrolyte. Presumably one or more shorted cells. I did try to have a look but all the (2v) cells are wired neatly with plastic caps on everything so I couldn’t easily measure individual cell voltages and gave up. He had unplugged it by then but the batteries were nearly too hot to touch. I advised him to water the batteries (there is a plumbed-in watering system) which he did. He also mentioned that he had never used the electric propulsion, just run on diesel.

 

Whilst perhaps he could identify the one or two duff cells and replace them, that would put new cells in series with 10 year old cells, probably not a good idea. So he would be left with around £8k to replace all the cells.

 

I felt rather sorry for him because he was a nice guy but totally out of his depth electrically.

My mate did his 72 volts milk floater under 3k for 2 volt cells! They aren't that expensive really unless you go to PB or a marina 😱

[Richard10002]

3 hours ago, MtB said:

 

My unpleasant shock was at 60 the chemist refusing to take payment for a prescription. I knew my birthday had just passed but I thought at the time it was 59th, and he said nope, computa sez u r 60! 

 

Same here. "you dont pay for your prescriptions do you", said the chemist. "Of course I do", said I.... "not now you're 60!", said the chemist.

 

Called the opticians to book an eye test..... "Is it all about £75", I asked...... "you dont pay for the basic test, so it's actually only £20", said the optician.... "Is that because I'm old? ", I asked

 

 

[David Mack]

21 hours ago, TandC said:

Or is it something that could be installed in an engine bay... no need for skin tank etc? 

You could always add skin tanks. Relatively easy to do while the engine is out. @blackrose added a second skin tank to his widebeam while it was afloat - there's a thread about it somewhere on here.

[pearley]

57 minutes ago, David Mack said:

You could always add skin tanks. Relatively easy to do while the engine is out. @blackrose added a second skin tank to his widebeam while it was afloat - there's a thread about it somewhere on here.

The Hybrid Marine system needs 2 skin tanks, one for the engine, the other for electric motor cooling. It also requires cooling fans for the battery boxes.

[peterboat]

13 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

 

Same here. "you dont pay for your prescriptions do you", said the chemist. "Of course I do", said I.... "not now you're 60!", said the chemist.

 

Called the opticians to book an eye test..... "Is it all about £75", I asked...... "you dont pay for the basic test, so it's actually only £20", said the optician.... "Is that because I'm old? ", I asked

 

 

Same here 😟

[TandC]

sooo....  at the risk of dragging this on!  

 

If you consider the particular situation / limitations:

 

Large, easily accessible cruiserstern engine bay 

No water-cooling infrastructure (skin tank etc) 

No real opportunity to adjust ballast

Solar limited by roof size to around 350w 

Battery bank limited to around x4  110amphr batteries (although if weight is saved - could be increased) 

Liveaboard - but probably relatively limited cruising compared to many 

 

Why would a serial arrangement not be worth exploring?   

 

Air-cooled diesel generator - running an electric motor.     

 

Even if you didn't have a huge solar array, or a massive battery bank to allow maximum cruising off the batteries - why would that arrangement be so unfeasible? 

 

Wouldn't running a diesel generator to generate the propulsion energy (electric ) be not dis-similar to just running a Lister?   Is that a really really inefficient way to use them (as in, as the sole power source, rather than supplementing shore-charge/solar charge).  

 

Is a generator, motor, whatever electric control wizardy - THAT much more expensive than the costs of acquiring a new water-called engine, installing it (and the construction of a skin-tank) plus the hospital silencer arrangement etc.   Even if buying a recon BMC engine from Calcutt Boats, that's still going to cost a weighty few bob to have the skin tank constructed etc.

 

How much is a diesel generator... a cooling radiator... a BellMarine motor... potentially additional batteries...  control kit....  ?

 

 

I promise I shall leave now....!  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[nicknorman]

43 minutes ago, TandC said:

sooo....  at the risk of dragging this on!  

 

If you consider the particular situation / limitations:

 

Large, easily accessible cruiserstern engine bay 

No water-cooling infrastructure (skin tank etc) 

No real opportunity to adjust ballast

Solar limited by roof size to around 350w 

Battery bank limited to around x4  110amphr batteries (although if weight is saved - could be increased) 

Liveaboard - but probably relatively limited cruising compared to many 

 

Why would a serial arrangement not be worth exploring?   

 

Air-cooled diesel generator - running an electric motor.     

 

Even if you didn't have a huge solar array, or a massive battery bank to allow maximum cruising off the batteries - why would that arrangement be so unfeasible? 

 

Wouldn't running a diesel generator to generate the propulsion energy (electric ) be not dis-similar to just running a Lister?   Is that a really really inefficient way to use them (as in, as the sole power source, rather than supplementing shore-charge/solar charge).  

 

Is a generator, motor, whatever electric control wizardy - THAT much more expensive than the costs of acquiring a new water-called engine, installing it (and the construction of a skin-tank) plus the hospital silencer arrangement etc.   Even if buying a recon BMC engine from Calcutt Boats, that's still going to cost a weighty few bob to have the skin tank constructed etc.

 

How much is a diesel generator... a cooling radiator... a BellMarine motor... potentially additional batteries...  control kit....  ?

 

I promise I shall leave now....!  

 

You can make an engine installation just as quiet as a generator, so I don’t see the point. You are swapping running an engine when you cruise, to running a generator at the same time or some other time (eg when you are down the pub but your neighbours have to listen to it). Power efficiency of lead acid batteries is very poor, you have a charge efficiency of around 94% but then you have to multiply by the voltage efficiency (say around 14.4v in for 12.5v out) ie around 80%. Then you have the electric motor efficiency. And the efficiency of a generator producing electricity vs an engine producing motive power. Not sure about that one but a normal alternator is only about 30% efficient and that is after you have the engine efficiency of about 25%.

 

Installing a skin tank is a pretty trivial task especially if the engine is out, giving plenty of working room. A few 100 quid. But why not get a quote, then it won’t be an unknown?

 

I suspect doing the hybrid thing will probably add about £10k vs a water cooled engine, and increased running costs due to the efficiencies I mentioned earlier.

 

You mention a cooling radiator for the generator, if you are going to have an air cooled radiator with fan etc it’s never going to be quiet. A decent built in generator setup uses a skin tank…

Edited September 1, 2021 by nicknorman