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Narrowboat training on a trad stern with speed controls.


Felshampo

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2 hours ago, Dav and Pen said:

This is my youngest daughter then aged 9 at that age I could explain what to do and she did it, now she tells me what to do.

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@Dav and Pen Dave, where is the bread and cheese on the cabin top?

 

"Steer to the bread, steer to the cheese." :D

 

Lovely picture BTW, reminiscent of this one.

1685677931_Ironlock.jpg.0e1bda60bc2673e60cbb23c855baa6a0.jpg

Edited by Ray T
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1 hour ago, Ray T said:

@Dav and Pen Dave, where is the bread and cheese on the cabin top?

 

"Steer to the bread, steer to the cheese." :D

 

That may not make sense to others. You know Tommy Osborne of course, and it was him who told us that that is what he did when he had a woman wartime trainee who couldn't tell left from right; he put the cheese on one side of the hatches and the bread on the other and gave instruction accordingly

 

Tam

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18 minutes ago, Tam & Di said:

 

That may not make sense to others. You know Tommy Osborne of course, and it was him who told us that that is what he did when he had a woman wartime trainee who couldn't tell left from right; he put the cheese on one side of the hatches and the bread on the other and gave instruction accordingly

 

Tam

I have read the same thing teaching the kids to steer

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Didn’t do the bread and cheese bit but both of our girls were naturals. The photo was taken when going to the reopening of the upper Avon and we took a load of coal down the Stratford canal and Nick Hill brought a load of corn from Sharpness.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 26/08/2021 at 20:28, David Mack said:

 

 

 

 

What you mustn't do is push the reversing rod straight from forward to reverse (or vv) without reducing the revs first, in exactly the same way as you shouldn't bang a Morse lever straight from forward to reverse without letting the revs drop as the lever passes through the neutral position.

 

 

Can someone  explain the reason for this and what happens if you dont wind right down? It probably becomes more important on some engine gearbox combinations? 

 

 

I came across this advert, and maybe they are someone that may do it. They will train on your boat it seems

 

https://www.narrowboatescapes.co.uk/training

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Stroudwater1 said:

 

Can someone  explain the reason for this and what happens if you dont wind right down? It probably becomes more important on some engine gearbox combinations? 

 

 

I came across this advert, and maybe they are someone that may do it. They will train on your boat it seems

 

https://www.narrowboatescapes.co.uk/training

 

 

You have a weighty propeller and shaft with a coupling rotating one way. You go straight to reverse and all that mass has to loose its kinetic energy and then spin the other way, its expecting a lot of the clutch in the gearbox to absorb in a fraction of a second.

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14 minutes ago, Stroudwater1 said:

Can someone  explain the reason for this and what happens if you dont wind right down? It probably becomes more important on some engine gearbox combinations? 

Knocking the engine out of gear with the revs up won't do a lot of harm, but banging it into reverse gear while the prop, prop shaft and gearbox output shaft are still rotating in the ahead direction requires those components to suddenly stop and rotate in the opposite direction, and to do that imposes large forces on all the components involved, with the increased possibility of doing some damage in the process, compared with a more gentle approach. And if you have a traditional engine with the flywheel on the front and the drive to the gearbox taken from the back, then the stressed components include the crankshaft. Crankshafts do shear from time to time, and that is going to be an expensive repair, especially for a vintage engine.

 

Edited to add:

Banging the gearbox straight from forward to reverse would be akin to pressing the accelerator pedal in the car to get the engine revs up, selecting a gear then sliding your foot off the side of the clutch pedal, so it springs straight up. The car would do a kangaroo hop forward and you would probably stall the engine. Its the sort of thing we all did as learner drivers, but we don't do now. So why would you do it to the boat?

Edited by David Mack
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On 07/09/2021 at 17:30, Stroudwater1 said:

 

Can someone  explain the reason for this and what happens if you dont wind right down? It probably becomes more important on some engine gearbox combinations? 

 

 

Yes, you are correct. While it it's best practice not to do it, some hydraulic gearboxes can handle rapid shifts from forward to astern and vice versa at high engine revs.

 

In their Owners Manual PRM state:

 

Gear Shifting (Except PRM60/90/125)
PRM Newage Ltd hydraulic marine gearboxes have been designed and tested to ensure rapid shifts from ahead to astern and vice versa at full horsepower ratings and speeds if necessary. However, since full-power shifts do place abnormal, even if short lived, loads on the gearbox and if used indiscriminately as it will reduce the operating life, they should be reserved for emergency use only.

 

The point is why would you want to do it unless it was an emergency situation anyway? You're clearly not in control of the boat if you're slamming the gearbox from one direction to the other at high engine revs, although I've seen people do it unnecessarily.

Edited by blackrose
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On 26/08/2021 at 16:35, Tracy D'arth said:

Correct, and Ford and John Deere share a common organisation and production facilities.

 

Since the 70's John Deere have purchased their 'small' tractor engines (mostly less than 100hp) from Yanmar, and a little later added Kawaskai to the suppliers list.

JD 'big-engines' are manufactured in their own factories in : Waterloo, Iowa; Saran, France; Torreon, Mexico; Rosario, Argentina; and Pune, India.

 

 

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Since the 70's John Deere have purchased their 'small' tractor engines (mostly less than 100hp) from Yanmar, and a little later added Kawaskai to the suppliers list.

JD 'big-engines' are manufactured in their own factories in : Waterloo, Iowa; Saran, France; Torreon, Mexico; Rosario, Argentina; and Pune, India.

 

 

 

Correct, the engine used in the JD3 (the 3029) is pure John Deere from a family of 3, 4 and 6 cylinder jobbies. Its aimed at the industrial/generator market and comes from Saran. An almost identical unit is used in some smaller (but not little) tractors and is made in the Mexican plant.

 

So the JD3 is actually French 😀 

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2 hours ago, blackrose said:

The point is why would you want to do it unless it was an emergency situation anyway? You're clearly not in control of the boat if you're slamming the gearbox from one direction to the other at high engine revs, although I've seen people do it unnecessarily.

And with trad controls there is nothing physically preventing you from moving straight from ahead to astern at full revs if circumstances demand it. Just highly undesirable for all the reasons already mentioned.

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3 hours ago, David Mack said:

And with trad controls there is nothing physically preventing you from moving straight from ahead to astern at full revs if circumstances demand it. Just highly undesirable for all the reasons already mentioned.

Dont think there is much difference between trad controls and a single lever if you going to go from fast ahead to fast a stern in a quick single movement

Edited by Tonka
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6 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

Yes, you are correct. While it it's best practice not to do it, some hydraulic gearboxes can handle rapid shifts from forward to astern and vice versa at high engine revs.

 

In their Owners Manual PRM state:

 

Gear Shifting (Except PRM60/90/125)
PRM Newage Ltd hydraulic marine gearboxes have been designed and tested to ensure rapid shifts from ahead to astern and vice versa at full horsepower ratings and speeds if necessary. However, since full-power shifts do place abnormal, even if short lived, loads on the gearbox and if used indiscriminately as it will reduce the operating life, they should be reserved for emergency use only.

 

The point is why would you want to do it unless it was an emergency situation anyway? You're clearly not in control of the boat if you're slamming the gearbox from one direction to the other at high engine revs, although I've seen people do it unnecessarily.

Is this connected to the pressured change when going into neutral, if only briefly, when changing gear. On my hydraulic gearbox the pressure drops from around 275 psi in gear to 50 psi in neutral. This I understand was only introduced by prm in 2010.

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