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New Narrowboat shell in build. What do you think of this?


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21 minutes ago, Jackofalltrades said:

This is shouting poor design and/or workmanship to me.


What design are the builders working to tho, or are you leaving it to them? It sounds like this is is non-standard set-up, so it might be unrealistic to expect a NB builder to come up with the best design for something new first time. If you were expecting something different, did you give them some direction? 

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8 minutes ago, Thames Bhaji said:


What design are the builders working to tho, or are you leaving it to them? It sounds like this is is non-standard set-up, so it might be unrealistic to expect a NB builder to come up with the best design for something new first time. If you were expecting something different, did you give them some direction? 

The builder specialises in bespoke builds. We specified some things from the start but made clear we are new to narrowboating (but not 'boating') and steel boats and have never had a boat built before so there has been some handholding along the way. But we had no input into the keel cooling tank and motor bearers - we are (or were) relying on their skill and judgement. As I said above, an email was sent to the builder last night and we are waiting for a response.

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If there had been a fillet of weld round the angle against the tank you would have been more than happy. As for the tank, maybe they have spoken to the motor supplier and that is what was recommended. Its not easy working in 3D on the first project of that type unless you, the customer are prepared to pay a lot of money on mock ups to see what works best.

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2 hours ago, peterboat said:

Yes to busy building new boats! Repairs are normally a boatyard thing rather than a builder

 Having said that he stretched my boat and built the wheelhouse base, but I have known him for years and we are friends which always helps 

Well, he scores one star for customer service, I just got the impression, that I could do whatever I pleased, and that was end of discussion. I certainly would not be ordering a new build from him, good boats, but this is 2021, not 1950.

I'm not sure he actually does much hands on these days, just supervising, not sure if that is true., or if it matters. 

Edited by LadyG
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16 hours ago, Jackofalltrades said:

Our original build slot was in February, from a reasonably well known builder in the East midlands... After being told we couldn't visit in person due to Covid, out of the blue we were invited along to see progress. This is a photo from Tuesday...

 

Thoughts? Comments?

Engine_Bearer_cropped.jpg

Weld missing on bottom of bearer at end, water will run into side bilge. No seperate bilge for sterntube? No oil I suppose.

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6 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Well, he scores one star for customer service, I just got the impression, that I could do whatever I pleased, and that was end of discussion. I certainly would not be ordering a new build from him, good boats, but this is 2021, not 1950.

I'm not sure he actually does much hands on these days, just supervising, not sure if that is true., or if it matters. 

He does plenty of hands on they have 3 sights and are very busy building new quality boats.

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3 hours ago, noddyboater said:

You probably had a lucky escape.  I've known people leave boats there for relatively minor jobs and 6 months later they haven't been touched. 

You get a free mooring with facilities while you wait though. 

Don't tell anyone, or he will be even busier! 

Edited by LadyG
PS
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4 hours ago, noddyboater said:

You probably had a lucky escape.  I've known people leave boats there for relatively minor jobs and 6 months later they haven't been touched. 

You get a free mooring with facilities while you wait though. 

Please confirm who and where your talking about, I have never seen boats moored at the builders yard waiting for minor work, as he has not got the canal side mooring space to do this, as they are filled with new builds. 

Edited by PD1964
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1 hour ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Weld missing on bottom of bearer at end, water will run into side bilge. No seperate bilge for sterntube? No oil I suppose.

I noticed that and that there are no limber holes to allow a bilge pump to remove water from all areas. I surmised the (small) gap between the bearer and the swim side was in  place of a limber hole but in my view its too small and shoddy work.

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4 hours ago, LadyG said:

Well, he scores one star for customer service, I just got the impression, that I could do whatever I pleased, and that was end of discussion. I certainly would not be ordering a new build from him, good boats, but this is 2021, not 1950.

I'm not sure he actually does much hands on these days, just supervising, not sure if that is true., or if it matters. 

 Once again you show your inexperience, he is a shell builder not a repair yard. He is hands on every day working the steel as Peter says. You bought an old second hand boat with no shell warranty, maybe he thought you would be too much of a pain to deal with(like most of the tradesmen that have worked with you have seemed to found) and does he need to do minor repairs on old boats when he has enough on building new shells like the one just launched below?? Why not take it to Thorne boat services where you got work done before as they do repairs and don’t build shells.

FED2ACCB-5339-4905-ADA3-B029E22E1133.jpeg

Edited by PD1964
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5 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

Maybe it is if its an all electric boat, maybe it shallow drafted 

Why should electric affect the draft? (or did I miss a smiley?)

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6 hours ago, jetzi said:

I'm also a bit surprised that the electric motor would need keel cooling. But if it does, I don't know that relying on a calorifier would work, surely once your hot water is up to temperature the calorifier will stop cooling the motor?

As you said, "it's keel cooling" the unseen side is attached to the skin of the boat.  That's where the heat is lost, so the cooling effect doesn't stop.  Unless of course you expect the canal to get up to that temperature?

5 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

Maybe it is if its an all electric boat, maybe it shallow drafted

In which case it would be poorly designed.  A shallow drafted canal boat is like a ping pong ball floating.  

Poor to steer

Affected badly by wind

Prop likely to cavitate resulting in no braking ability

Attracting all floating rubbish

Propulsion depending on a jet of water exiting from the back rather than a gentle roll of displaced water.

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1 hour ago, zenataomm said:

As you said, "it's keel cooling" the unseen side is attached to the skin of the boat.  That's where the heat is lost, so the cooling effect doesn't stop.  Unless of course you expect the canal to get up to that temperature?


jetzi was commenting on relying on a calorifier, rather than keel cooling, no? The former will reach temp and stop cooling while the latter obviously won’t.

 

I have 4 x Lynch so air-cooled not water... but they would quickly overheat if the airflow stopped. 

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1 hour ago, Mike Todd said:

Why should electric affect the draft? (or did I miss a smiley?)

It might have been built as a lighter boat needing less energy to drive it along, 12 tones and not 18 tones, thats all I was thinking. As for motor cooling I guess it will be 15Kw max at only 80% efficient that would be 3Kw of heat to dissipate

1 hour ago, zenataomm said:

 

.  A shallow drafted canal boat is like a ping pong ball floating.  

Poor to steer

Affected badly by wind

Prop likely to cavitate resulting in no braking ability

Attracting all floating rubbish

Propulsion depending on a jet of water exiting from the back rather than a gentle roll of displaced water.

Yes

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47 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

It might have been built as a lighter boat needing less energy to drive it along, 12 tones and not 18 tones, thats all I was thinking. As for motor cooling I guess it will be 15Kw max at only 80% efficient that would be 3Kw of heat to dissipate

Yes

A good 15kW watercooled PMAC motor (e.g. Engiro 12202) is much more efficient than that, around 95% at maximum output. The controller (e.g. Sevcon Gen4) will have similar efficiency, if this shares the watercooling loop with the motor there's a total of about 1.5kW to dissipate, half your estimate and needing less than a square foot of keel cooler. This is very small compared to skin cooling requirement for a 10kVA generator (about 4 square feet) or a typical diesel (about 12 square feet).

 

A less efficient motor will need a bigger cooler, but still pretty small.

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1 hour ago, Thames Bhaji said:


jetzi was commenting on relying on a calorifier, rather than keel cooling, no? The former will reach temp and stop cooling while the latter obviously won’t.

 

I have 4 x Lynch so air-cooled not water... but they would quickly overheat if the airflow stopped. 

 

1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

It might have been built as a lighter boat needing less energy to drive it along, 12 tones and not 18 tones, thats all I was thinking. As for motor cooling I guess it will be 15Kw max at only 80% efficient that would be 3Kw of heat to dissipate

Yes

Ian has beat me to it 90 plus efficient and the reality is a calorifier will be enough to keep it cool, remember every lock it stops so no cooling required, my single again Cedrics own motor after 1.5 hours was only at 40 degrees on its body and 50 ish degrees in the rotor.  93 % efficient and correct gearing plus the big D135 motor works a treat. 

1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

It might have been built as a lighter boat needing less energy to drive it along, 12 tones and not 18 tones, thats all I was thinking. As for motor cooling I guess it will be 15Kw max at only 80% efficient that would be 3Kw of heat to dissipate

Yes

 

28 minutes ago, IanD said:

A good 15kW watercooled PMAC motor (e.g. Engiro 12202) is much more efficient than that, around 95% at maximum output. The controller (e.g. Sevcon Gen4) will have similar efficiency, if this shares the watercooling loop with the motor there's a total of about 1.5kW to dissipate, half your estimate and needing less than a square foot of keel cooler. This is very small compared to skin cooling requirement for a 10kVA generator (about 4 square feet) or a typical diesel (about 12 square feet).

 

A less efficient motor will need a bigger cooler, but still pretty small.

How long before your boat is delivered Ian? 

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28 minutes ago, IanD said:

A good 15kW watercooled PMAC motor (e.g. Engiro 12202) is much more efficient than that, around 95% at maximum output. The controller (e.g. Sevcon Gen4) will have similar efficiency, if this shares the watercooling loop with the motor there's a total of about 1.5kW to dissipate, half your estimate and needing less than a square foot of keel cooler. This is very small compared to skin cooling requirement for a 10kVA generator (about 4 square feet) or a typical diesel (about 12 square feet).

 

A less efficient motor will need a bigger cooler, but still pretty small.

As I didn't have actual numbers so was being a bit conservative

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9 minutes ago, noddyboater said:

That big window looks great doesn't it.

Just a normal sized window, no bigger then usual, I think it’s the distance from the port holes that throws it and having only one,  I would of had all portholes and side hatches being 70ft,

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9 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

Just a normal sized window, no bigger then usual, I think it’s the distance from the port holes that throws it and having only one,  I would of had all portholes and side hatches being 70ft,

To be honest I hadn't heard that David Blunkett had commissioned a new build but it's good that he's supporting a local business. 

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13 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

Just a normal sized window, no bigger then usual, I think it’s the distance from the port holes that throws it and having only one,  I would of had all portholes and side hatches being 70ft,

Windows and portholes for me it's just as well we are all different 

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19 minutes ago, noddyboater said:

To be honest I hadn't heard that David Blunkett had commissioned a new build but it's good that he's supporting a local business. 

Yes ok, you’ve obviously got a gripe with  someone there, as with your first comment mentioning the lucky escape with minor repairs. 

  I can’t recall anyone that has gone there and moored for free using the facilities waiting for minor repairs, when was that?
 

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13 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

Yes ok, you’ve obviously got a gripe with  someone there, as with your first comment mentioning the lucky escape with minor repairs. 

  I can’t recall anyone that has gone there and moored for free using the facilities waiting for minor repairs, when was that?
 

No gripes from me, I just wonder what goes in some customers minds when they're spending a pile of money on a new shell.

Recessed panels? Check. With planking detail? Oooh,  yes please. 

Forecabin? Check.

A scattering of false rivets? Yes please, we're going for the full traditional look here.

Oh yeah,  can you stick me a caravan window in the side please, so people can look in at the size of my TV?  

Smashing. 

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