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C&RT say don't empty your compost toilet in our bins.


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7 hours ago, doratheexplorer said:

It's funny how people keep coming up with analogies which don't work at all!

 

The earlier one was VHS/Betamax!! As if Betamax had been banned 😂

Betamax may not have been banned but it became almost impossible to continue to use when films were not available in that format and blank tapes could not be purchased for home recording.

So the analogy is NOT spurious: the better product became untenable, Market forces prevailed Betamax owners had to bin them and get a VHS machine.

For better product read composting toilet (allegedly)

For market forces read CRT being told that Biffa and their ilk will not collect raw shit in plastic bags

For Betamax owners purchasing an alternative read the bagger and binners.

 

Capiche?

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12 hours ago, alias said:

It's a bit hit and miss, but if you hit return a couple of times in the middle of quoted text it often splits the quote...

...like this. There must be a rule about why it sometimes works and other times not. Perhaps someone knows.

The use of return seems to be the key.   If you don't force a space then the text appears all as one.   I missed lots of comments until I realised if you expanded it there was text to read.

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13 hours ago, Dyertribe said:

Betamax may not have been banned but it became almost impossible to continue to use when films were not available in that format and blank tapes could not be purchased for home recording.

So the analogy is NOT spurious: the better product became untenable, Market forces prevailed Betamax owners had to bin them and get a VHS machine.

For better product read composting toilet (allegedly)

For market forces read CRT being told that Biffa and their ilk will not collect raw shit in plastic bags

For Betamax owners purchasing an alternative read the bagger and binners.

 

Capiche?

No, because that's not the point at all.  The reason people are cross is because CRT have half-heartedly 'banned' composting toilets.  Nothing to do with which type of toilet is better or more popular.  I remain astonished that people still aren't getting their heads round this basic fact and are still diverting the argument down dead alleys.

 

You say the better product became untenable but the issue here is not whether or not something is untenable, it's WHY it's untenable.

 

And finally, I had a betamax up until the late 90s, at least a decade after they were declared obsolete.  I used it to record programmes from the tv.  I bought it second hand for next to nothing as a teenager and blank tapes were still reasonably easy to come by (again very cheaply).  I couldn't buy prerecorded films on it easily but I wasn't interested in that.  Point is, it wasn't banned.

 

 

Edited by doratheexplorer
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13 hours ago, Dyertribe said:

Betamax may not have been banned but it became almost impossible to continue to use when films were not available in that format and blank tapes could not be purchased for home recording.

So the analogy is NOT spurious: the better product became untenable, Market forces prevailed Betamax owners had to bin them and get a VHS machine.

For better product read composting toilet (allegedly)

For market forces read CRT being told that Biffa and their ilk will not collect raw shit in plastic bags

For Betamax owners purchasing an alternative read the bagger and binners.

 

Capiche?

 

No I don't capiche, because unless one has the facilities to continue the composting process to make the waste fit for use or disposal, which the vast majority of boaters & composting toilet owners on boats don't have, then a  composting toilet is NOT a better product - not even allegedly. So the analogy doesn't really work. It's not just because of market forces, it's also down to chemistry.

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1 minute ago, blackrose said:

 

No I don't capiche, because unless one has the facilities to continue the composting process to make the waste fit for use or disposal, which the vast majority of boaters & composting toilet owners on boats don't have, then a  composting toilet is NOT a better product - not even allegedly. So the analogy doesn't really work. It's not just because of market forces, it's also down to chemistry.

But whether or not it's better (which is largely subjective anyway) has nothing whatsoever to do with the argument here.  People still insisting on diverting the argument away from the main issues.

 

CRT's decision has nothing to do with which type of toilet is 'better'.

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12 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

 

CRT's decision has nothing to do with which type of toilet is 'better'.

 

Correct, it is C&RT's decision (aided by their waste contractor) as to which is 'worse'.

 

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Apart from those that have a "composting" toilet who are either going to have to compost or fit something else does anyone really care? Or is all the "discussion" for discussions sake cos we are all bored?

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10 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Apart from those that have a "composting" toilet who are either going to have to compost or fit something else does anyone really care? Or is all the "discussion" for discussions sake cos we are all bored?

I don't care and I do have a composting toilet.

 

I would start to care if there were a move to ban the use of my toilet; I use mine correctly and so cause no  harm to either the environment or the curtain twitchers.

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1 minute ago, frahkn said:

I use mine correctly and so cause no  harm

 

Well done, that's two of you (Peter and yourself), maybe you can educate the other 198 (?) so the problem is completely resolved.

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23 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Well done, that's two of you (Peter and yourself), maybe you can educate the other 198 (?) so the problem is completely resolved.

Point of order M'lud.   Hasn't a certain Dr Bob said he composts as well.

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10 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Point of order M'lud.   Hasn't a certain Dr Bob said he composts as well.

There will be plenty more boaters who compost properly, that infamous survey had 70 of them out of 250 responses (the best data we have).

 

The problem is the 180 who bag'n'bin... 😞

Edited by IanD
typo...
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1 minute ago, IanD said:

There will be plenty more boaters who compost properly, that infamous survey had 70 of them out of 250 responses (the best data we have).

 

The problem is the 180 who bin'n'bag... 😞

It was the way Alan's post seemed to imply that there were only the 2 who composted correctly.    Going by, as you say the best data we have, 28% compost correctly (almost 1 in 3).

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51 minutes ago, frahkn said:

I don't care and I do have a composting toilet.

 

I would start to care if there were a move to ban the use of my toilet; I use mine correctly and so cause no  harm to either the environment or the curtain twitchers.

I do care and I don't have a composting toilet -- or even a boat, yet... 😉

 

You're not the problem, what you do is environmentally good -- the problem is the majority of composting toilet owners on canal boats who don't compost properly.

 

If you (or anyone else) can come up with a way to stop them but allow you to carry on, that would be a win all round.

 

Finding a way to do this without allowing cheating by the bag'n'binners is the problem, with no realistic solution in sight.

 

If this can't be done and composting toilets on the canals are banned as the only way to stop the bag'n'binners then you have my sympathy, but I fear that will be of little consolation... 😞

Edited by IanD
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Let's get a grip on reality here. Bag'n bin hasn't yet been flagged up by CaRT as a big problem they just changed the guidance. Maybe 100% of bag'n binners will start composting properly or find other legal ways to dispose. 

 

30 revolving pages hmmmm - they do say if you want a prolonged debate on a boating forum just mention the word "toilets". Still it's given us something to moan about that isn't covid, Brexit  or Boris related.

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39 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Point of order M'lud.   Hasn't a certain Dr Bob said he composts as well.

 

 

If I am in error I will certainly remove the post, but, I seem to remember that so far he said he had not had to empty the 'pot' but would not hesitate to use a bin if needed.

 

Edit to add - Found it :

 

"Big compost bin in the marina.

When we are out and about in April onwards, then we will have a 50litre plastic box but I am more than likely just double bag it and bin it.

Not emptying liquid into the cut. Not a good idea as it promotes weed growth. No, there is lots of woodland around so that is where I pour it.

There are a handfull of peeps here who have these 'dry' toilets and are disposing of the solids/liquids in the same way".

 

 

"They can do composting if left long enough but this one I have is only a 5 day cycle for solids so composting happens outside".

 

 

 

Screenshot (209).png

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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1 hour ago, Loddon said:

Apart from those that have a "composting" toilet who are either going to have to compost or fit something else does anyone really care? Or is all the "discussion" for discussions sake cos we are all bored?

It's possible to care about other people. 

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13 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

It's possible to care about other people. 

Indeed, but caring about someone who has fitted the wrong type of bog for their use is down past the bottom of my list. 

There are far more things to care about than that, those that cannot feed their families, those that are struggling to cope with lockdown, those that find themselves with no job/income. 

@blackrosehas the answer £20 from Amazon 😷

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26 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Indeed, but caring about someone who has fitted the wrong type of bog for their use is down past the bottom of my list. 

There are far more things to care about than that, those that cannot feed their families, those that are struggling to cope with lockdown, those that find themselves with no job/income. 

@blackrosehas the answer £20 from Amazon 😷

Isn't that basically saying that because there are huge problems in the world that I/we can't do anything about, there's no point doing anything about the smaller ones that I/we could maybe do something about?

 

So there's no point anybody doing anything, because the whole world is going to hell in a handbasket... 😞

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51 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

If I am in error I will certainly remove the post, but, I seem to remember that so far he said he had not had to empty the 'pot' but would not hesitate to use a bin if needed.

 

Edit to add - Found it :

 

"Big compost bin in the marina.

When we are out and about in April onwards, then we will have a 50litre plastic box but I am more than likely just double bag it and bin it.

Not emptying liquid into the cut. Not a good idea as it promotes weed growth. No, there is lots of woodland around so that is where I pour it.

There are a handfull of peeps here who have these 'dry' toilets and are disposing of the solids/liquids in the same way".

 

 

"They can do composting if left long enough but this one I have is only a 5 day cycle for solids so composting happens outside".

 

 

 

Leaving aside the bit in red, the remaining bold perhaps shows a way forward. Probably better for compost bins to be marina based, as easier oversight regarding proper use than if they were alongside waste bins or Elsan blocks.

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10 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

Leaving aside the bit in red, the remaining bold perhaps shows a way forward. Probably better for compost bins to be marina based, as easier oversight regarding proper use than if they were alongside waste bins or Elsan blocks.

There was a long discussion about this earlier. Unless there are enough of them around the network, the bag'n'binners will still use the bins in between -- assuming they care enough to bother using the marinas (which may have to charge) instead of a free bin.

 

This also assumes that people will take care about what goes in them (no plastic/other waste) which goes against most experience with waste disposal -- it's not their bin and nobody's looking, so they don't care...

 

It might work for the conscientious composters if the bins were locked, and you paid a fee to join the "poo club" and use the bins (because someone has to empty them, which costs money).

 

But the conscientious composters aren't the problem, a lot of them already compost properly and the remainder would join the "poo club". The problem is the bag'n'bin boaters -- encouraged by vloggers -- who don't want to pay extra to do this (cost saving is one reason they installed the toilet in the first place), there's nothing to stop them bag'n'binning so that's what they'll carry on doing.

 

It's just human nature -- if they can carry on doing something that's easy and cheap and convenient for them, why should they change and pay good money to poo-shifters when they don't have to?

Edited by IanD
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Just now, Iain_S said:

Leaving aside the bit in red, the remaining bold perhaps shows a way forward. Probably better for compost bins to be marina based, as easier oversight regarding proper use than if they were alongside waste bins or Elsan blocks.

 

Indeed it was proposed earlier.

 

Marinas will not 'provide a service at no charge'. (Boaters in the marina are presumably covering the costs of a system suitable for the marina berth holders in their mooring fees)

Boaters will not pay for something they think they should 'get for free' (or as part of the licence payment' - as per cassettes)

 

Boaters will continue to crap-bag- bin, there is no one to stop them.

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9 minutes ago, IanD said:

Isn't that basically saying that because there are huge problems in the world that I/we can't do anything about, there's no point doing anything about the smaller ones that I/we could maybe do something about?

 

So there's no point anybody doing anything, because the whole world is going to hell in a handbasket... 😞

No the point is that fitting the wrong type of bog for your intended use is much the same as fitting the wrong coloured curtains, nothing to get hung about.

Anyway I have to go and prune some shrubs.

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7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Indeed it was proposed earlier.

 

Marinas will not 'provide a service at no charge'. (Boaters in the marina are presumably covering the costs of a system suitable for the marina berth holders in their mooring fees)

Boaters will not pay for something they think they should 'get for free' (or as part of the licence payment' - as per cassettes)

 

Boaters will continue to crap-bag- bin, there is no one to stop them.

Oh dear Alan, haven't you come up with a legal way for CaRT to do this yet? I'm so disappointed, given your in-depth knowledge of the ins and outs of UK inland waterway laws, if anyone could do it I'd have thought it would be you 😉

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1 hour ago, Midnight said:

 

30 revolving pages hmmmm - they do say if you want a prolonged debate on a boating forum just mention the word "toilets". Still it's given us something to moan about that isn't covid, Brexit  or Boris related.

 

And at least we've moved on from pump-out vs. cassette...

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8 minutes ago, IanD said:

Oh dear Alan, haven't you come up with a legal way for CaRT to do this yet? I'm so disappointed, given your in-depth knowledge of the ins and outs of UK inland waterway laws, if anyone could do it I'd have thought it would be you 😉

 

Sorry to disappoint, my school teachers were often disappointed with me as well, 'school reports' would often include such gems as "sets himself very low targets which he consistently fails to achieve".

 

 

The only way that springs to mind is the use of 'environmental' ** issues, but, as the 'stuff' is going in the bin and not the canal I don't see how either C&RT or the BSS can use it.

 

It will take a bear with bigger brain that I to come up with a workable solution.

 

** Sea toilets were discharging into the inland waterways so that is within their remit to control.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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