Bubble diesel stoves

[Mike Tee]

2 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

That is the best flame picture of a drip feed burner I have seen in ages.

I think that is (apart from making sure all ‘holes’ are clear) mainly down to a one metre twin wall insulated chimney - as tall as you can get away with really.

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Mike Tee said:

I think that is (apart from making sure all ‘holes’ are clear) mainly down to a one metre twin wall insulated chimney - as tall as you can get away with really.

 

A couple of thoughts. 

 

1) Service engineers know that anyone daft enough to service one for a boater gets to "own" all future faults and misbehaviours in that stove, so sensibly they swerve all service knowing the short flue is a recipe for bad behaviour.

 

2) A few of the land-based boilers with open flues have fan assistance. I wonder is adding the right sort of fan into the short flue on a boat-installed Bubble might turn out to be an effective solution.

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

34 minutes ago, MtB said:

2) A few of the land-based boilers with open flues have fan assistance. I wonder is adding the right sort of fan into the short flue on a boat-installed Bubble might turn out to be an effective solution.

 

 

Those holes in the burner assembly suggests to me that they are to allow combustion air in the assembly. Rather than put a fan in the hot flue I wonder if it would be easier to blow air into the burner via those holes. might help keep the holes clean.

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Those holes in the burner assembly suggests to me that they are to allow combustion air in the assembly. Rather than put a fan in the hot flue I wonder if it would be easier to blow air into the burner via those holes. might help keep the holes clean.

The Dickinson Stove has a fan that does that, sometimes when we are cruising in high winds we run the fan at its slowest speed because going under a bridge in such conditions can cause a blow back and knock the flame out. It also assists lighting while the flue is cold

[Ex Brummie]

22 hours ago, peterboat said:

Same as mine until the water incident!

Mine used to be the same stove has to be as level as possible, I used kerosene which is cleaner and hotter 

I grant you Kerosene is cleaner, but the calorific value of diesel is greater than kero. Whilst level is the best, as Bubble and Refleks use a pot, occasional movement is not too disruptive. The oilwarm conversions that used a 6" two channel wick burner were a total non starter on a boat.

22 hours ago, peterboat said:

Same as mine until the water incident!

Mine used to be the same stove has to be as level as possible, I used kerosene which is cleaner and hotter 

I grant you Kerosene is cleaner, but the calorific value of diesel is greater than kero. Whilst level is the best, as Bubble and Refleks use a pot, occasional movement is not too disruptive. The oilwarm conversions that used a 6" two channel wick burner were a total non starter on a boat.

22 hours ago, peterboat said:

Same as mine until the water incident!

Mine used to be the same stove has to be as level as possible, I used kerosene which is cleaner and hotter 

I grant you Kerosene is cleaner, but the calorific value of diesel is greater than kero. Whilst level is the best, as Bubble and Refleks use a pot, occasional movement is not too disruptive. The oilwarm conversions that used a 6" two channel wick burner were a total non starter on a boat.

22 hours ago, peterboat said:

Same as mine until the water incident!

Mine used to be the same stove has to be as level as possible, I used kerosene which is cleaner and hotter 

I grant you Kerosene is cleaner, but the calorific value of diesel is greater than kero. Whilst level is the best, as Bubble and Refleks use a pot, occasional movement is not too disruptive. The oilwarm conversions that used a 6" two channel wick burner were a total non starter on a boat.

Sorry! Didn't mean to shout.😚

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, Ex Brummie said:

I grant you Kerosene is cleaner, but the calorific value of diesel is greater than kero. Whilst level is the best, as Bubble and Refleks use a pot, occasional movement is not too disruptive. The oilwarm conversions that used a 6" two channel wick burner were a total non starter on a boat.

I grant you Kerosene is cleaner, but the calorific value of diesel is greater than kero. Whilst level is the best, as Bubble and Refleks use a pot, occasional movement is not too disruptive. The oilwarm conversions that used a 6" two channel wick burner were a total non starter on a boat.

I grant you Kerosene is cleaner, but the calorific value of diesel is greater than kero. Whilst level is the best, as Bubble and Refleks use a pot, occasional movement is not too disruptive. The oilwarm conversions that used a 6" two channel wick burner were a total non starter on a boat.

I grant you Kerosene is cleaner, but the calorific value of diesel is greater than kero. Whilst level is the best, as Bubble and Refleks use a pot, occasional movement is not too disruptive. The oilwarm conversions that used a 6" two channel wick burner were a total non starter on a boat.

Sorry! Didn't mean to shout.😚

? Kerosene burns hotter it's one of the issues of adding oil to it and using it in diesel engines. Just because it has more calories doesn't mean its hotter, my Rayburn can get hotter on wood than anthracite literally roaring, but there are more calories in Anthracite 

[Ex Brummie]

Oil is added to kerosene for combustion in engines because on its own it would fire too soon and give preignition. An oil boiler on 35 sec (diesel) gives more heat per litre than 29 sec (kerosene) and uses less fuel for the same output. The additional tax applied for 35 sec negates any advantage, and also, on small throughput quantities, kerosene is more forgiving when ignition occurs. Kerosene will begin to vapourise at about 38C whereas 35 sec needs about 70C.

[peterboat]

7 minutes ago, Ex Brummie said:

Oil is added to kerosene for combustion in engines because on its own it would fire too soon and give preignition. An oil boiler on 35 sec (diesel) gives more heat per litre than 29 sec (kerosene) and uses less fuel for the same output. The additional tax applied for 35 sec negates any advantage, and also, on small throughput quantities, kerosene is more forgiving when ignition occurs. Kerosene will begin to vapourise at about 38C whereas 35 sec needs about 70C.

As per this screenshot 

[MtB]

7 minutes ago, Ex Brummie said:

Oil is added to kerosene for combustion in engines because on its own it would fire too soon and give preignition.

 

Sounds like cobblers to me. Pre-ignition is an effect associated with petrol engines I reckon. A diesel is designed to ignite the fuel immediately it gets injected. 

 

 

9 minutes ago, Ex Brummie said:

An oil boiler on 35 sec (diesel) gives more heat per litre than 29 sec (kerosene) and uses less fuel for the same output.

 

Also sounds like cobblers to me. I admit though, I haven't looked up the calorific values for 29 and 35 second fuel. Yet...! 

[Tony Brooks]

9 hours ago, MtB said:

Sounds like cobblers to me. Pre-ignition is an effect associated with petrol engines I reckon. A diesel is designed to ignite the fuel immediately it gets injected. 

 

 

I agree and think people may be getting mixed up with running an unmodified petrol engine on paraffin. When hot doing so may well detonate because of the lower octane rating of paraffin. This is why I understand petrol-paraffin tractors had lower compression ratios. If an engine regularly detonates/pre-ignites the shock waves may well break rings and pistons.

 

I also understand that kero has far less lubricity than diesel so the oil is added to counter this, a bit like adding oil to petrol for old two-stroke petrol engines.

 

Edited to add further thoughts. Temperature results from heat being added or removed from a mass of something. The mass of air and metal in and around the combustion chamber is of a fixed value so if you burn a known volume of fuel with a high calorific value and then a low calorific value the first will generate more heat than the second. This means the temperature rise will be greater for the higher value and lower for the lower value fuel. This ignores the cumulative effect of ongoing combustion processes but if an engine is designed for the higher calorific value fuel the cooling will be more than adequate for the lower value fuel. In fact (thermostats aside) one could argue using a lower calorific value fuel will run cooler.

 

If kero has a lower cetane rating than diesel then the delay period would be longer, so the diesel knock would be worse. In extreme cases the shock wave from the igniting build up of fuel in the cylinder might be enough to break rings and piston lands (much like detonation in a petrol engine), so is it and if so by how much. A very quick google shows kero as 45 to 52 and diesel as 40 to 52, so both much the same. This suggests that shock wave damage when running a CI engine on kero is unlikely. google was less forthcoming with a cetane rating for what we call paraffin in the UK but did say kerosene is the US name for UK paraffin. Likewise, I could not find the cetane rating for 28 second heating oil but it did say 28 second heating oil is the same as kero. Once again I conclude this burning hotter thing is incorrect.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Tony Brooks

[Arnac]

Thought I would give you an update on my Bubble diesel stove. I've got rid and replaced it with its solid fuel Bubble equivalent (stop laughing at the back). The bloody thing started driving me mad, I could never get it running consistently. I did try, honestly I did ....... 🙄

[peterboat]

24 minutes ago, Arnac said:

Thought I would give you an update on my Bubble diesel stove. I've got rid and replaced it with its solid fuel Bubble equivalent (stop laughing at the back). The bloody thing started driving me mad, I could never get it running consistently. I did try, honestly I did ....... 🙄

What about the dust?

[Arnac]

Lol ... I prefer the dust tbh 😉

[peterboat]

Just now, Arnac said:

Lol ... I prefer the dust tbh 😉

I have a woodburner in the front of the boat, I much preferred the bubble stove cleaner to operate and easier to light, if Carlos the idiot hadn't put water in the tank it would still be there

[Arnac]

'Carlos'. I shall avoid everyone called Carlos from now on. 

[mrsmelly]

1 hour ago, Arnac said:

Thought I would give you an update on my Bubble diesel stove. I've got rid and replaced it with its solid fuel Bubble equivalent (stop laughing at the back). The bloody thing started driving me mad, I could never get it running consistently. I did try, honestly I did ....... 🙄

A very wise move that you will never regret 👍

[Tracy D'arth]

As i oft said, seen more rippedout than installed.  OK with a mush longer flue, else tthey are the devil incarnate.

[peterboat]

4 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

As i oft said, seen more rippedout than installed.  OK with a mush longer flue, else tthey are the devil incarnate.

Mine was brilliant until the tank was filled with water, having it level is the answer, my flu is a normal one with a double skinned stainless chimney.

[Tracy D'arth]

4 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Mine was brilliant until the tank was filled with water, having it level is the answer, my flu is a normal one with a double skinned stainless chimney.

How do you get it level on a boat, gimballed flue pipes?  Of course your's would be perfect.....

 

No one i know likes then.

[peterboat]

2 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

How do you get it level on a boat, gimballed flue pipes?  Of course your's would be perfect.....

 

No one i know likes then.

It was new, I have nearly always run it on Kero, I have had one before so dont mess around with it and I have a proper filter to stop crap blocking the Toby valve up! I also know Terry of Harworth heating which helps.

Also living on a widebeam which is very stable in comparison to a narrowboat really makes getting it level easier. We have to other oil stoves on the moorings both work fine.

When I convert my Rayburn Royal to a pressure jet system later this year, i will probably reinstall the Bubble stove, I have drained the tank of its water!!!! Its been drying out for nearly a year so it should be okay? If I am buying 28 second kero for one stove I might as well make it for 2 as its cheaper than solid fuel currently. If IanDs is correct life is going to get difficult for wood and solid fuel in the future

[noddyboater]

16 minutes ago, peterboat said:

 

When I convert my Rayburn Royal to a pressure jet system later this year, i will probably reinstall the Bubble stove, I have drained the tank of its water!!!! Its been drying out for nearly a year so it should be okay? If I am buying 28 second kero for one stove I might as well make it for 2 as its cheaper than solid fuel currently. If IanDs is correct life is going to get difficult for wood and solid fuel in the future

Why put all your eggs in one basket though? 

The price of kero is bound to rise in the future,  but with the Rayburn on s/fuel you have the option to go down river and stock up on free fuel to keep you warm and well fed.

Smokeless fuel and bought logs might get harder to obtain cheaply but with a bit of effort there's enough to see us lot out.

[peterboat]

14 minutes ago, noddyboater said:

Why put all your eggs in one basket though? 

The price of kero is bound to rise in the future,  but with the Rayburn on s/fuel you have the option to go down river and stock up on free fuel to keep you warm and well fed.

Smokeless fuel and bought logs might get harder to obtain cheaply but with a bit of effort there's enough to see us lot out.

Its dusty and dirty unless burning quality anthracite, the problem is you cant buy quality Anthracite! So far easier to convert it, I have a large fuel tank doing nothing in the stern problem sorted. Also solid fuel and logs are going to get expensive as time goes on, so I don't think there will anything to choose between them

[noddyboater]

But the point I was making is the cooking and heating can be free with a bit of effort, which you've said in the past you do.

If the price of oil goes through the roof you're tied to one fuel.

I guess you'd just plug some electric heaters in if that happens. 

[IanD]

58 minutes ago, peterboat said:

It was new, I have nearly always run it on Kero, I have had one before so dont mess around with it and I have a proper filter to stop crap blocking the Toby valve up! I also know Terry of Harworth heating which helps.

Also living on a widebeam which is very stable in comparison to a narrowboat really makes getting it level easier. We have to other oil stoves on the moorings both work fine.

When I convert my Rayburn Royal to a pressure jet system later this year, i will probably reinstall the Bubble stove, I have drained the tank of its water!!!! Its been drying out for nearly a year so it should be okay? If I am buying 28 second kero for one stove I might as well make it for 2 as its cheaper than solid fuel currently. If IanDs is correct life is going to get difficult for wood and solid fuel in the future

Wood burning is definitely likely to see restrictions soon (because of PM2.5 emissions) which are likely to affect many or all boaters, depending how the rules are applied (urban/rural, exceptions for need not lifestyle) -- blame the cosy woodburning installations in trendy Islington houses which already have gas CH... 😞

 

Smokeless solid fuel is a longer term issue (CO2 emissions -- solid fuel is worse for CO2 than oil which is worse than gas) just like it is for houses on land, but I expect it will take a long time to be completely phased out.

[cuthound]

They can work reliably, but as most boatyards and canal "engineers" don't know how to clean them or set them up properly they are prone to be smoky and unreliable.There is a Refleks Facebook group which offers lots pf practical help, as do a handful of members on here.

 

Properly cleaned and set up they are warm, controllable, clean and reliable. It is worth learning how to do this yourself if you get one.

 

I've recently started running mine in kerosene as it is now about the same cost to run as a coal stove. When left running 24/7, mine just needs a quick clean  by dropping a "Russboy" cleaning tablet in it every couple of weeks and a good clean out of all of the burner pot air holes once a year.

Edited March 7, 2023 by cuthound
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