Nearly New Boats, Snagging and Surveys

[Blue Knight]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I'll just say, I had a surveyor, who missed £20,000 (cost to put right) faults, tried to take him to Court, solicitor said don't bother the 'small print' says he has no responsibility for what he has written, and the survey is invalid as soon as he leaves the boat (he has no control over - say - someone drilling a hole in the bottom once he has left).

 

Next a new £250,000 widebeam came into the marina and (I've told this story so many times I'll cut to the end) and after between 2 and 5 engineers being on site daily for 12 weeks they did not resolve the problems and he manufacturer said we've done more than we were legally obliged to do and walked away. This was a "Special Hand Built Highest Quality Control" boat for the Boat show. The engineers said normal production boats are worse.

 

It went up for sale 3 months later for £230,000, and 12 months after that was still for sale.

 

DO NOT BUY A NEWISH BOAT.

Get one a few years old were the problems are resolved, and you will also have more knowledge about what you actually need on a boat rather than what you 'want' when you come to sell it and have one built for you.

 

Also - consider where you plan to use the boat - Widebeams have limited (or no) access to many of the canals due to their beam, so you cannot example go from South to North or vice-versa.

 

I'd suggest that as the original buyer signed the contract to accept liability for the VAT that the debt does not go forward with the boat.

 

But, that is not an "expert opinion" just logical.

Hi Alan,

 

That's a fab bit of info albeit I do claim to having read about the £250K boat example during a previous forum reading session. I'm still stunned by that example though and it's perhaps the one thread that has made me quite sceptical of sellers and brokers.

 

I'll come clean and say now that my experience of the 60x12 widebeam on a narrow canal was a real unpleasant one; verging on nightmare proportions and potentially dangerous to other water craft users too . I'm 6'1" and still struggled do see where I was going while the bow thruster was working overtime in such tightly confined areas. It moved like an oil tanker and, although spacious, I found it to be a total liability. (Wait a minute there, I think I've just talked myself out of the larger WB variants).

 

I've checked out the C&RT Crusing mapping and the WB boats will be hard to live with for sure. I have a map which highlights all accessible routes by 9ft-wide craft but it would mean we stay Northbound. I'm a Northen chappy anyway so there's nowt wrong with that ?

 

We're now considering a 9-footer but even that will stop me from moving North to South without trailering it between canals.

 

Nicky and I are also giving some serious thought to testing out a proper NB and see how that compares to our current motorhome living area. The NB will certainly have a whole load more space for sure while being a joy to steer IMO. That said, the only NBs that we've seen too date were a bit earthy inside.

 

I got talking with a lovely chap at Newark a few weeks ago at the canal locks who may be selling his MY05 57x6'10" boat for £45,000 (2 pack hull, 300W solar etc) and it certainly made sense to start with something I would call 'guaranteed usable' and work to something different later if required - just like your fantatsic advice.

 

It's a while since I've been a newbie on any forum but you guys have been truly fantastic.

 

Thanks again for your support,

 

Andrew

 

Edited August 16, 2020 by Blue Knight

[Blue Knight]

13 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Research the origins of Collingwood, its a phoenix company.

 

Not for me.

 

Thanks Tracy, I've not done that yet but I'll be on Google in a sec.

 

Andrew

[matty40s]

The Grand Union has a saucer shaped profile, ....so boats like 

 

And ..

 

Which have passed us in the last 2 days, scrape bottom both sides of the hull on the siit most if not all of the time.

Even a 10foot wide one I moved from Marsworth to Weedon was sticking in the silt for large parts of the trip.

Edited August 16, 2020 by matty40s

[Blue Knight]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Since 2017 the Hull builder, has to complete the full RCD paperwork even if it is sold at the Hull or Sailaway stage so the paperwork will show who the builder is.

 

The old Annexe IIIA is 'no longer'.

 

Doing your own fit-out now comes under 'major craft conversion' and requires a Post Construction Assessment

 

The new Directive has effectively put an end to Sailaway boats (completed to all variety of levels) being supplied with an Annex lll(a) Declaration as was previously possible under Directive 94/25/EU. Under the new Directive (2013/53/EU) Sailaways (including hull only) would need to be supplied as completed craft.

Therefore for anyone purchasing a narrow boat sailaway from 18th January 2017 must ensure you have the necessary paperwork from your boat builder that is required of a ‘completed’ craft up to the current point of completion, this includes:

• A builders plate – makers details and technical information
• A CE mark
• A Craft or Hull Identification Number (CIN or HIN) – it is carried in two places on the boat; one should be hidden for security.
• An owners manual with information needed to use and maintain the boat safety
• A declaration of conformity (DoC)

A CE marked craft shows the craft is compliant when it was placed on the market for the first time. It remains valid unless a major alteration to the craft takes place which would require a re-assessment of the craft.

‘Major Craft Conversion’ would be applicable to the fit out of the majority of sailaway boats, and needs to be factored in when planning your fit out. Once you have completed the fit out of your sailway boat, the boat would require a Post Construction Assessment and the documentation, builders plate and CE markings all need to be updated. Although a self assessment is possible, it is not recommended as the fitter would resume all responsibility as the manufacturer and it is also a lengthy and involved process. In the worse case scenario, it could mean you are held criminally responsible if the boat sank and there was loss of life. It is recommended that you appoint a professional to complete the post construction assessment, this would be at of cost of around £2000.

Have you ever thought about writing a canal boat specific book.

 

I'd buy it. 

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Blue Knight said:

Have you ever thought about writing a canal boat specific book.

Not likely - I've seen the future and its not much fun. We left the Canals & Rivers October last year and went where there are no licence fees, no BSSC and very few rules.

 

Increasing costs, reducing maintenance and infrastructure getting harder and harder to use, water getting shallower and shallower - no, its back to 'Lumpy Water for us :

 

 

 

 

[Blue Knight]

34 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Research the origins of Collingwood, its a phoenix company.

 

Not for me.

Hi Tracy, no sooner did I start searching through Google and I came across this very unfortunate legal situation from October 2019:

 

https://noproblem.org.uk/blog/my-day-in-court-with-collingwood-boat-builders/

 

The really interesting point is that the 18-month old Collingwood boat that we viewed the other day (link to the boat is in my opening post) has the exact same hull problems as the ones identified in the first few picture of the October 2019 legal case against Collingwood Boats.

 

Here's a pic from the link which looks identical to multiple points of the hull on the boat we viewed:

 

19 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Not likely - I've seen the future and its not much fun. We left the Canals & Rivers October last year and went where there are no licence fees, no BSSC and very few rules.

 

Increasing costs, reducing maintenance and infrastructure getting harder and harder to use, water getting shallower and shallower - no, its back to 'Lumpy Water for us :

 

 

 

 

That's the type of honest opinion that I like to read.

 

Many thanks Alan,

 

Andrew

[Tracy D'arth]

That's just a bit of rust, consider the hulls with welds missing altogether! I know personally of one with multiple welding repairs required, not through wear and tear but omission. 

[Bee]

Boating is and always has been a bit of a DIY occupation. Some years ago professionals moved in and tried to mould the owners to the boats that they produced, often the boats were less than brilliant and were sold in much the same way as cars and some boats were the Allegros of the boating world. Fast forward a few years and now prospective owners expect the expensive thing that they are buying to be well built, designed and finished. That is not always going to be the case. Often the builders have no real knowledge of boats at all but someone in the company knows about marketing and other dark arts and another great ugly barely usable tank of a thing that depreciates like a sinking brick gets launched.  OK, that is all just my opinion but so far as the original query is concerned it doesn't matter how much the boat costs you will have to accumulate a very big box of tools to fix the many problems that really will crop up and buying a good quality used narrow beam boat would be my choice. Sorry if that sounds a bit harsh and please don't be put off boating but that's just my thoughts. Oh, and as for 'our boats don't need a survey' did he say that with a straight face?

Edited August 16, 2020 by Bee

[dmr]

As you have observed, there are quite a lot of nearly new big widebeams for sale, most likely from people going through a similar thought process to yourselves....lets get the biggest boat we can so that its comfortable like a house. It appears not to be working out for many. You have the advantages that you know about motor homes and are wisely looking at second hand boats, and even appreciate that 9 foot or 6'10 might just be a better option.

 

I suspect the percentage of "luxury" boats is much greater in the widebeam market than in the narrowboat market, in part because people keep getting "luxury floating apartments" built and not liking them. There are a few very nice narrowboats available, but surprisingly few at present. Do look at brokers like Rugby and ABNB who sell nice boats.

 

If you want space a 70 foot narrow has a much greater cruising range than a wide one, though is a bit limited in the North.

 

...............Dave

[dmr]

2 hours ago, matty40s said:

The Grand Union has a saucer shaped profile, ....so boats like 

 

 

And ..

 

Which have passed us in the last 2 days, scrape bottom both sides of the hull on the siit most if not all of the time.

Even a 10foot wide one I moved from Marsworth to Weedon was sticking in the silt for large parts of the trip.

When me a Gillie fall out one of us goes to the front and the other to the back, with a boat like that it looks like one goes left and one goes right ?

[ditchcrawler]

7 hours ago, Blue Knight said:

Hi Team,

 

I'm after a bit of advice from you fine folk please.

 

My wife and I have recently viewed several nearly-new widebeams and in most cases I've been left wondering if all of the relevant maintenance and snagging work on these boats was ever completed during the initial ownership period.

 

I'll give you an example: We took this boat out the other day for a test cruise (link below).  After we moored-up I had a brief look around the fitout and was quite surprised to discover so many little niggles present . The bow thruster was wired up incorrectly; the wheel had a hydraulic leak; there were several litres of hydraulic fluid in the engine compartment; window locks were misaligned as were door frames and external locks; hatches and some shutters had wonky shut lines and a few other small things on top.......and this took all of 2-minutes with no inspection of the technical or structural stuff either.

 

https://www.narrowboatsltd.co.uk/boats/euro-cruiser

 

Question: Would these issues normally be present on a 'well cared for' 18-month old boat?

 

I have already been told that the owner had given up on it and had PX'd it for a smaller 9ft widebeam due it's sheer size, hence the sale. I also know of two other sales whereby new widebeam owners are selling their boats because they can't handle them safely so that's more food for thought for us to consider too.

 

Secondly, one of the employees (not a sales chap BTW) advised us that there should be no real need to instruct a survey on any of their nearly new stock as they were all in tip-top condition - but my exposure to boats so far gives me a different opinion and a survey should be on the cards. Is my thinking correct?

 

The missus and I are attempting to make a move from the off-grid motorhome world to the relative tranquillity of the water (IMO) so every bit of info would be kindly appreciated. Its also safe to say that some of our brand new motorhome purchases have not been good experiences due to poor build quality issues so we're certainly not naive enough to think that things don't need work. 

 

Thanks & Regards to all,

 

Andrew

 

I would say anyone who spends £200K on a boat and gets rid of it in less than 2 years doesn't have much interest in boats and is just buying a floating home, consequently wouldn't know what wants fixing and whats normal. Unlike houses the builder does not visit after a year to do a snagging survey the owner has to chace the builder.

[David Mack]

16 hours ago, matty40s said:

 

 

 

13 hours ago, dmr said:

with a boat like that it looks like one goes left and one goes right ?

 

When you are moving a boat like that you have to have someone looking down both sides of the boat to make sure you don't hit anything 

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

 

When you are moving a boat like that you have to have someone looking down both sides of the boat to make sure you don't hit anything 

 

Hopefully as your skill levels improve you don't need a 'spotter'.

It is like when you first start to drive a car, you have no idea where the 'corners' are, but with experience you can park, and pass thru tight spaces perfectly - unfortunately it appears that many canal based fat-boats rarely travel far enough for the Helmsman to get sufficient experience.

[ditchcrawler]

9 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

  - unfortunately it appears that many canal based fat-boats rarely travel far enough for the Helmsman to get sufficient experience.

Is it unfortunate, Mabe its good they dont move much

[dmr]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Hopefully as your skill levels improve you don't need a 'spotter'.

It is like when you first start to drive a car, you have no idea where the 'corners' are, but with experience you can park, and pass thru tight spaces perfectly - unfortunately it appears that many canal based fat-boats rarely travel far enough for the Helmsman to get sufficient experience.

It is said that a competent boater stands in the middle and knows were the sides of the boat are. I reckon a look down both sides just before a lock or bridge 'ole is a good idea in order to spot all the nasty sticky out bits.

 

..............Dave

[cuthound]

21 hours ago, Blue Knight said:

 

Thanks Tracy, I've not done that yet but I'll be on Google in a sec.

 

Andrew

 

Search for "Collinwood" on this forum.

 

Plenty of typical snags detailed such as bow thruster tube not blacked.

 

Definately a good idea to try a narrow boat to compare handling, but be aware different boats behave differently and a good widebeam may handle better than a poor narrowboat and vice versa.

Edited August 17, 2020 by cuthound
Phat phingers

[Alan de Enfield]

3 hours ago, dmr said:

It is said that a competent boater stands in the middle and knows were the sides of the boat are.

Many fat boats have a wheel mounted to the side (in the case of this one it looks to be Port side) so standing in the centre is not really possible.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have the same problem with the 'Cat' (wheel to Port side) but in this case 23 foot of beam.

Edited August 17, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[peterboat]

On 16/08/2020 at 15:33, Blue Knight said:

I'm getting some tip-top advice from you guys - thanks Tony.

 

The boats that we've seen so far are all derived from the Colingwood stables. This was not intentional but Narrowboats Ltd only seem to stock Colingwood boats while a few private sales that we are pursuing are all based in the Liverpool area. 

 

I'm quite handy with motors, electrical, water systems, construction, etc, (and I'm very happy to tinker) but like every potential owner I want to learn how to avoid the lemons and the major issues from the outset.

 

Regards,

 

Andrew

You have hit the nail on the head Collingwood boats! If you are throwing boats out quickly quality is the first thing to go wrong

7 hours ago, David Mack said:

 

 

When you are moving a boat like that you have to have someone looking down both sides of the boat to make sure you don't hit anything 

No you dont, I have had mine for years and the last two years with wheel steering, I also have a wheelhouse yet still manage to cruise on my own

[matty40s]

8 minutes ago, peterboat said:

 

No you dont, I have had mine for years and the last two years with wheel steering, I also have a wheelhouse yet still manage to cruise on my own

Aye, but you are on proper size waterways, not the silted and overgrown ditches most of us stick to.

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, matty40s said:

Aye, but you are on proper size waterways, not the silted and overgrown ditches most of us stick to.

I agree, but don't understand how being on a narrow, shallow ditch stops you knowing the size of your boat, and, where it will go and not go.

Do you only take your car down Motorways, or do you also explore single track lanes, does your car change size ?

[matty40s]

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I agree, but don't understand how being on a narrow, shallow ditch stops you knowing the size of your boat, and, where it will go and not go.

Do you only take your car down Motorways, or do you also explore single track lanes, does your car change size ?

You can see where the tarmac stops , you cant see where the depth stops.

[peterboat]

22 minutes ago, matty40s said:

Aye, but you are on proper size waterways, not the silted and overgrown ditches most of us stick to.

I have been through the glory hole at lincoln its a very very tight fit!! But yes I stick to northern canals made for big boats, why wouldnt you? It makes boating so much more enjoyable

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, peterboat said:

I have been through the glory hole at lincoln its a very very tight fit!! But yes I stick to northern canals made for big boats, why wouldnt you? It makes boating so much more enjoyable

 

As you approach the Glory-Hole it appears tight even for a NB

 

 

[peterboat]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

As you approach the Glory-Hole it appears tight even for a NB

 

 

Thruppneybit half a crown time when I did it

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Thruppneybit half a crown time when I did it

I'd have less than 6" each side if I could so it in the cruiser but I'm over 1' too high and 2 feet too deep.