Nearly New Boats, Snagging and Surveys

[Blue Knight]

Hi Team,

 

I'm after a bit of advice from you fine folk please.

 

My wife and I have recently viewed several nearly-new widebeams and in most cases I've been left wondering if all of the relevant maintenance and snagging work on these boats was ever completed during the initial ownership period.

 

I'll give you an example: We took this boat out the other day for a test cruise (link below).  After we moored-up I had a brief look around the fitout and was quite surprised to discover so many little niggles present . The bow thruster was wired up incorrectly; the wheel had a hydraulic leak; there were several litres of hydraulic fluid in the engine compartment; window locks were misaligned as were door frames and external locks; hatches and some shutters had wonky shut lines and a few other small things on top.......and this took all of 2-minutes with no inspection of the technical or structural stuff either.

 

https://www.narrowboatsltd.co.uk/boats/euro-cruiser

 

Question: Would these issues normally be present on a 'well cared for' 18-month old boat?

 

I have already been told that the owner had given up on it and had PX'd it for a smaller 9ft widebeam due it's sheer size, hence the sale. I also know of two other sales whereby new widebeam owners are selling their boats because they can't handle them safely so that's more food for thought for us to consider too.

 

Secondly, one of the employees (not a sales chap BTW) advised us that there should be no real need to instruct a survey on any of their nearly new stock as they were all in tip-top condition - but my exposure to boats so far gives me a different opinion and a survey should be on the cards. Is my thinking correct?

 

The missus and I are attempting to make a move from the off-grid motorhome world to the relative tranquillity of the water (IMO) so every bit of info would be kindly appreciated. Its also safe to say that some of our brand new motorhome purchases have not been good experiences due to poor build quality issues so we're certainly not naive enough to think that things don't need work. 

 

Thanks & Regards to all,

 

Andrew

 

[WotEver]

5 minutes ago, Blue Knight said:

Question: Would these issues normally be present on a 'well cared for' 18-month old boat?

I guess it all depends on how handy the owner is and how much he cares.

[Blue Knight]

14 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I guess it all depends on how handy the owner is and how much he cares.

Thanks WotEver, you make a very valid point indeed. In the motorhome world it's exactly the same whereby some vans are sold in the first 2-18 months with significant outstanding jobs to be done (i.e. still to be discovered) by the new owner.

 

Would a boat survey normally find the majority of the faults or is there still huge potential for risk.

 

I've read hundreds of threads on this forum prior to me joining last night and I get the impression that a few owners of new/nearly new boats get stuck with some right lemons.

 

Thanks for your reply,

 

Andrew

 

 

[WotEver]

3 minutes ago, Blue Knight said:

Would a boat survey normally find the majority of the faults or is there still huge potential for risk.

One would hope so but it depends largely on the surveyor. Alan will probably chip in with his anecdote of a surveyor missing many thousands of pounds worth of faults. Ensure you are present for the survey and don’t be afraid of asking questions. 

[Tony Brooks]

There is also a question of a high(ish) volume builder building down to a price or a volume builder building up to a standard.

 

I suspect there are more wide beam "narrowboats" built by the former because the low volume builders may well be building replica "Dutch" barges.

6 minutes ago, Blue Knight said:

Would a boat survey normally find the majority of the faults or is there still huge potential for risk.

 

 

I suspect what one owner calls faults in a fit out another may call niggles. I would expect a surveyor to comment on the steering system leak. Some of the things like shut lines could well be down to hull movement once the boat is afloat or as it heats up and cools down. Doors also tend to react to humidity.

[matty40s]

One of the main issues is that widebeams are in the main for people to live on....most are moving out of bricks and mortar, and hassling the builders to finish on time.

It's impossible to snag properly before it's in the water....this usually co-incides with the final payment and launch is often far away from the builders yard(the best place to fix things).

Once launched, the owners move on, and have to move around every 14 days or less.....so snagging repairs take place here and there and everywhere, if they happen at all. You cant refit a floor when a family are living on board with all the furniture they had delivered 2 hours after launch.

So, no, snagging is not always comprehensive or completed.....and some of the bits are slung together to meet time targets.

[Detling]

Is the boat a builder fit out, or was it a sailaway and the owner did some or all of the fitting out. If the latter it raises questions regarding the RCD, was it done properly or is the seller relying on the original builders RCD, which if not updated, is not worth anything. Any good surveyor should be able to tell you this and the implications, also these days worth checking if it has a valid VAT paid certificate in case you or someone else wishes to take it to the continent.

[WotEver]

8 minutes ago, Detling said:

... also these days worth checking if it has a valid VAT paid certificate in case you or someone else wishes to take it to the continent.

Question: if HMRC decided to follow-up an invalid VAT-free boat and the builder had included the clause about liability resting with the purchaser does it remain with the original purchaser or does liability remain with the boat?

 

 

Edited August 16, 2020 by WotEver
clarity

[Blue Knight]

33 minutes ago, matty40s said:

One of the main issues is that widebeams are in the main for people to live on....most are moving out of bricks and mortar, and hassling the builders to finish on time.

It's impossible to snag properly before it's in the water....this usually co-incides with the final payment and launch is often far away from the builders yard(the best place to fix things).

Once launched, the owners move on, and have to move around every 14 days or less.....so snagging repairs take place here and there and everywhere, if they happen at all. You cant refit a floor when a family are living on board with all the furniture they had delivered 2 hours after launch.

So, no, snagging is not always comprehensive or completed.....and some of the bits are slung together to meet time targets.

Thanks Matty, I've not got sufficient experience with boats to think along those lines so your info has been incredibly useful and thought provoking in terms of Q&C issues for fitouts.

 

You're a star!

 

Andrew

[Blue Knight]

43 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

There is also a question of a high(ish) volume builder building down to a price or a volume builder building up to a standard.

 

I suspect there are more wide beam "narrowboats" built by the former because the low volume builders may well be building replica "Dutch" barges.

 

I suspect what one owner calls faults in a fit out another may call niggles. I would expect a surveyor to comment on the steering system leak. Some of the things like shut lines could well be down to hull movement once the boat is afloat or as it heats up and cools down. Doors also tend to react to humidity.

I'm getting some tip-top advice from you guys - thanks Tony.

 

The boats that we've seen so far are all derived from the Colingwood stables. This was not intentional but Narrowboats Ltd only seem to stock Colingwood boats while a few private sales that we are pursuing are all based in the Liverpool area. 

 

I'm quite handy with motors, electrical, water systems, construction, etc, (and I'm very happy to tinker) but like every potential owner I want to learn how to avoid the lemons and the major issues from the outset.

 

Regards,

 

Andrew

[OldGoat]

Boats are not like cars - except there may be some Arthur Daley firms in the boating business.

Many boats get stuck in a marina / mooring and don't move which means than some features don't get used including the engine.

There aren't any standards either....

[Tony Brooks]

Very tempted to say unfortunate choice of views so far - volume builder.

[Blue Knight]

2 hours ago, Detling said:

Is the boat a builder fit out, or was it a sailaway and the owner did some or all of the fitting out. If the latter it raises questions regarding the RCD, was it done properly or is the seller relying on the original builders RCD, which if not updated, is not worth anything. Any good surveyor should be able to tell you this and the implications, also these days worth checking if it has a valid VAT paid certificate in case you or someone else wishes to take it to the continent.

The company in question do everything from basic sailaways to full fitouts albeit at the lower end of the market, or at least that's my initial perception (a view based upon the price-point of their boats rather than my eye for quality).

 

If all goes to plan then we'll be revisiting them next week and I'll be sure to make the points about the RCD and VAT.

 

I do know that two of the boats on display started as either a sailaway or partial fit and the new owners completed the work

 

Many Thanks,

 

Andrew

 

Edited August 16, 2020 by Blue Knight

[Blue Knight]

25 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Very tempted to say unfortunate choice of views so far - volume builder.

 

I've read a few things about certain builders Tony so would you avoid this one - or at least think twice and 'be prepared' for issues?

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, WotEver said:

One would hope so but it depends largely on the surveyor. Alan will probably chip in with his anecdote of a surveyor missing many thousands of pounds worth of faults. Ensure you are present for the survey and don’t be afraid of asking questions. 

I'll just say, I had a surveyor, who missed £20,000 (cost to put right) faults, tried to take him to Court, solicitor said don't bother the 'small print' says he has no responsibility for what he has written, and the survey is invalid as soon as he leaves the boat (he has no control over - say - someone drilling a hole in the bottom once he has left).

 

Next a new £250,000 widebeam came into the marina and (I've told this story so many times I'll cut to the end) and after between 2 and 5 engineers being on site daily for 12 weeks they did not resolve the problems and he manufacturer said we've done more than we were legally obliged to do and walked away. This was a "Special Hand Built Highest Quality Control" boat for the Boat show. The engineers said normal production boats are worse.

 

It went up for sale 3 months later for £230,000, and 12 months after that was still for sale.

 

DO NOT BUY A NEWISH BOAT.

Get one a few years old were the problems are resolved, and you will also have more knowledge about what you actually need on a boat rather than what you 'want' when you come to sell it and have one built for you.

 

Also - consider where you plan to use the boat - Widebeams have limited (or no) access to many of the canals due to their beam, so you cannot example go from South to North or vice-versa.

56 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Question: if HMRC decided to follow-up an invalid VAT-free boat and the builder had included the clause about liability resting with the purchaser does it remain with the original purchaser or does liability remain with the boat?

 

 

 

I'd suggest that as the original buyer signed the contract to accept liability for the VAT that the debt does not go forward with the boat.

 

But, that is not an "expert opinion" just logical.

Edited August 16, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[Tony Brooks]

12 minutes ago, Blue Knight said:

 

I've read a few things about certain builders Tony so would you avoid this one - or at least think twice and 'be prepared' for issues?

Lets say I would be far more careful in my inspection. I think they build shells for others so fit out so it may not be easy to establish the hull builder even if the add does not say that particular builder. If I had the choice of two from different builders the builders would be a large factor in my eventual choice with all else being equal.

[WotEver]

16 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I'd suggest that as the original buyer signed the contract to accept liability for the VAT that the debt does not go forward with the boat.

 

But, that is not an "expert opinion" just logical.

Yes, I had the same thought but with HMRC you never know...

[matty40s]

Collingwood build shells for several companies up the NW.

[Alan de Enfield]

13 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I think they build shells for others so fit out so it may not be easy to establish the hull builder even if the add does not say that particular builder.

Since 2017 the Hull builder, has to complete the full RCD paperwork even if it is sold at the Hull or Sailaway stage so the paperwork will show who the builder is.

 

The old Annexe IIIA is 'no longer'.

 

Doing your own fit-out now comes under 'major craft conversion' and requires a Post Construction Assessment

 

The new Directive has effectively put an end to Sailaway boats (completed to all variety of levels) being supplied with an Annex lll(a) Declaration as was previously possible under Directive 94/25/EU. Under the new Directive (2013/53/EU) Sailaways (including hull only) would need to be supplied as completed craft.

Therefore for anyone purchasing a narrow boat sailaway from 18th January 2017 must ensure you have the necessary paperwork from your boat builder that is required of a ‘completed’ craft up to the current point of completion, this includes:

• A builders plate – makers details and technical information
• A CE mark
• A Craft or Hull Identification Number (CIN or HIN) – it is carried in two places on the boat; one should be hidden for security.
• An owners manual with information needed to use and maintain the boat safety
• A declaration of conformity (DoC)

A CE marked craft shows the craft is compliant when it was placed on the market for the first time. It remains valid unless a major alteration to the craft takes place which would require a re-assessment of the craft.

‘Major Craft Conversion’ would be applicable to the fit out of the majority of sailaway boats, and needs to be factored in when planning your fit out. Once you have completed the fit out of your sailway boat, the boat would require a Post Construction Assessment and the documentation, builders plate and CE markings all need to be updated. Although a self assessment is possible, it is not recommended as the fitter would resume all responsibility as the manufacturer and it is also a lengthy and involved process. In the worse case scenario, it could mean you are held criminally responsible if the boat sank and there was loss of life. It is recommended that you appoint a professional to complete the post construction assessment, this would be at of cost of around £2000.

Edited August 16, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[Tony Brooks]

That is what the law says but remind me how many prosecutions have taken place for RCD irregularities in inland boats.

 

In my view the BSC has more reliability than an inland RCD.

[Athy]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

Very tempted to say unfortunate choice of views so far - volume builder.

...except that the advert states Wincham Wharf as the builder. Do they use Collingwood's shells? Even if they do, the majority of the faults listed by the O.P. appear to be with the fitting out rather than with the steelwork, so they don't reflect on Collingwood.

[Tony Brooks]

4 minutes ago, Athy said:

...except that the advert states Wincham Wharf as the builder. Do they use Collingwood's shells? Even if they do, the majority of the faults listed by the O.P. appear to be with the fitting out rather than with the steelwork, so they don't reflect on Collingwood.

Post 10 - the OP specifically states "Collingwood stable"

[Ex Brummie]

Met someone last month with a new boat. Looked lovely, but upon delivery they found they could not get a gas bottle in the gas locker.

As regards VAT liability, I think you would find HMRC would charge this to the current owner and leave them with the hassle (and expense) of challenging it. If they had already been successful in a similar case, you may find it difficult to get a different ruling.

[Blue Knight]

14 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Post 10 - the OP specifically states "Collingwood stable"

Yes, you're correct Tony. The Wincham Warf guys have their boat hulls supplied by Collingwood and then they sort out the rest, as required.

[Tracy D'arth]

Research the origins of Collingwood, its a phoenix company.

 

Not for me.