Sailing the seas of Confusing Portable Generators

[Alan de Enfield]

14 minutes ago, TNLI said:

The 230Ah batteries might be unsealed golf cart ones. They are good deep cycle ones, although I don't like them if they are not sealed due to Chlorine gas risk if the bilge floods. 

 

 

You are simply making lifeboat considerations and not looking at 'normal' boats and boating.

My 6x 230Ah are a bit heavy at 55kg-58kg but are 'liftable' on my own.

They are not golf buggy batteries they are 625 Truck batteries and I demand open-cell so I can check on water levels and top up as necessary,

It is a motor cruiser with twin 6-litre engines a 2000+ mile range with 3 fuel tanks carrying 2,800 litres.

We have a lot of electical & electronic 'comforts' and Nav gear on board.

Solar panels help keeping the batteries charged if we stay anchored up for a few days.

 

 

 

 

My other boat is a CatA Blue Water Catamaran and yes, we only have 1x 230Ah domestic battery (and 2x 100Ah starter batteries, one for each engine) 3x 100 watt Solar panels keep the batteries topped up for the fridge, microwave, TV and electronics / Nav gear,

 

 

 

Edited July 11, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[TNLI]

4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

You are simply making lifeboat considerations and not looking at 'normal' boats and boating.

My 6x 230Ah are a bit heavy at 55kg-58kg but are 'liftable' on my own.

They are not golf buggy batteries they are 625 Truck batteries and I demand open-cell so I can check on water levels and top up as necessary,

It is a motor cruiser with twin 6-litre engines a 2000+ mile range with 3 fuel tanks carrying 2,800 litres.

We have a lot of electical & electronic 'comforts' and Nav gear on board.

Solar panels help keeping the batteries charged if we stay anchored up for a few days.

 

 

 

 

My other boat is a CatA Blue Water Catamaran and yes, we only have 1x 230Ah domestic battery (and 2x 100Ah starter batteries, one for each engine) 3x 100 watt Solar panels keep the batteries topped up for the fridge, microwave, TV and electronics / Nav gear,

 

 

 

Like the Cat, but can't figure out why the engines in the fishing boat are so big. please don't say they are inboard petrol jobs, as I thought they were not insurable. Lifeboats, old ones in particular, are just normal boats certified to a standard that would be good for a normal boat, offshore fishing boats in particular. 

 

  Can you seal the lids of the battery boxes or bay shut? I have seen some good installation jobs done for folks that like topping up batteries, (Sealed battery bays must have a Hydrogen vent line), that were good. Saves money, as you don't really need regulators for solar panels and can use much cheaper car or truck batteries. 

   In some boats the battery boxes are the first place to flood if an engine hose fails, and for those folks that missed out on Chemistry O level classes, sea water and sulphuric acid do not like each other. The net result is Chlorine gas!

  My battery bay is under the central coffin berth I sleep in, but it does make lifting standing up or even bending over impossible, I have to lift a battetry out whilst lying down. I plan to add 4 more small NiCad's when I fit the 48V Aux power electric drive system, but they will be under the sealed tool box which is not in the picture, as the pic of the coffin berth is about 3 months ago. I will post a new pic when the engine is installed.

 

Most new offshore Cat's or Trimirans are unsinkable, but will burn very easily like most fiberglass boats. The last Sunseeker to burn in Poole was in a yard with good CCTV. First sign of external smoke was 6 minutes before it turned into a ball of fire that could not be approached from any direction. They do have good smoke detectors, BUT the idea of using handheld fire extinguishers is not too good in a serious fire. The solution that does work, is to fit flood valves to each water tight compartment, just like the military fit. You then just open up the valve for the smoking compartment, and then put the main fire hose through the top hatch nearest to the fire. Opening up that hatch, also allows you to check for occupants, like the chap with the welding torch! Engines fires are best delt with in a similar manner, IF the burst bottles that are often standard fit for the better quality boat manufacturers don't work as intended, or you can't find the fuel shut off lever. The deck wash pump can double up for a main fire hose, and often does, although bucket and chuck it can work for small boats.

 

PS: The coffin berth is just forward of the parrot and penguin, (My motley crew), where the deckchair and silver insulation roll is. The 4 battery boxes are directly below, and the fuel tank and floatation watertight compartmenta are on either side. The roll over and pitchpole proof berth is good for one person, BUT rather more interesting for two. The rescue deck is directly above and the forward cabin lower hatch is where my feet would be.

  The design is really based on singlehanded operation requrements, so it's a bit odd!

Edited July 12, 2021 by TNLI
editing itself

[Glynn]

Without a doubt Honda.

[Theo]

On 29/06/2020 at 15:00, MoominPapa said:

I second Richard's point about weight and portability. We have a Kipor IG1000 which is just powerful enough to run a 45A charger and that's what it's used for. The boat is wired so that the 240v loads in the boat continue to be powered from the inverter whilst the batteries are being charged by the 240v from the generator via the charger. That way I only have to size the inverter for peak loading and the generator is sized just for the battery charger. Heaving anything heavier that the 14Kg of the Kipor would be a pain.

 

Ours is two years old and has been pretty good. Totally reliable and easy to start. Two criticisms only. First the amount of oil between full and the low oil sensor activating is tiny. To avoid the possibility of it shutting down on low oil you have to check it quite regularly and it's a bit of a pain to do, as it requires a screwdriver to remove the non-captive screw holding the side panel on. Second, ours is the version sold by Midland Chandlers with a female commando socket fitted, rather than a conventional 13A socket. This is great as they are more weather proof, but the plastic panel it's fitted into is a bit flimsy and flexes a lot under the force needed to withdraw a commando-type plug. Nothing has broken yet, but it's on my todo list to reinforce it before something does.

 

MP.

  

Coming very late to the discussion that's exactly what I have and exactly how I run it.  The only differenceis that I have fitted a gas converter.  Petrol is really hard to come by on the canals and not that esy to store satisfactorily.  I have two gas bottles for normal domesting use and a third one dedicated to the generator.  All 13kg propane.

 

Edited to add:  I leave the gas bottle in the locker and have a long flexible hose.  The pressure reducer is on the gas bottle with a "Gas fuse".

Edited July 22, 2023 by Theo

[Tony1]

 

What are the economic factors of 1000watt vs 2000 watt gennies? 

E.g. a 1000 watt genny is more frugal, but if you want to run a 45amp battery charger it will not be running at idle, so the fuel consumption will increase- whereas the more thirsty 2000 watt genny will do the charging at a lower speed (one would think).

Does it sort of balance out (so that their fuel use is roughly the same), or is one does one type use noticeably less fuel than the other? 

 

I've considered a suitcase genny several times, as an alternative to running the engine for battery charging in Dec and January (when there's not enough usable solar). But my Sterling shore power battery charger will only charge at 30 amps max, so in my case a 1000 watt model would be suitable.

I dont fancy 3 hours of genny running every day though, which is what I'd need to get close to my absolute  minimum 100Ah of usage per day in winter. 

Three hours running per day might need fairly frequent visits to the nearest petrol station, even with the maximum allowed size of jerrycan (I think the max allowed might be 20 litres for a metal petrol can).

. 

 

 

Edited July 22, 2023 by Tony1

[Theo]

4 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

What are the economic factors of 1000watt vs 2000 watt gennies? 

E.g. a 1000 watt genny is more frugal, but if you want to run a 45amp battery charger it will not be running at idle, so the fuel consumption will increase- whereas the more thirsty 2000 watt genny will do the charging at a lower speed (one would think).

Does it sort of balance out (so that their fuel use is roughly the same), or is one does one type use noticeably less fuel than the other? 

 

I've considered a suitcase genny several times, as an alternative to running the engine for battery charging in Dec and January (when there's not enough usable solar). But my Sterling shore power battery charger will only charge at 30 amps max, so in my case a 1000 watt model would be suitable.

I dont fancy 3 hours of genny running every day though, which is what I'd need to get close to my absolute  minimum 100Ah of usage per day in winter. 

Three hours running per day might need fairly frequent visits to the nearest petrol station, even with the maximum allowed size of jerrycan (I think the max allowed might be 20 litres for a metal petrol can).

. 

 

 

That's why a gas conversion is a good idea.

[Tony1]

10 minutes ago, Theo said:

That's why a gas conversion is a good idea.

 

Do you have any feel for the relative costs of the different fuel types? 

Gas bottles are not cheap, and I only have room for one in my bow gas locker and one in the stern locker, so accommodating a third would be a challenge- but worth considering if the economic case is there. 

 

If we say a 1000 watt genny uses 0.5 litres per hour, then a the cost of a gas bottle will buy enough fuel to run the genny for many hours- the exact figure will depend on the model in use. How many hours do you (roughly) estimate a small converted genny will run on a full propane bottle? 

 

Edited July 22, 2023 by Tony1

[Puffling]

AFAIK, fitting a gas conversion kit invalidates any warranty on your genny. With my Honda EU2200i having 5 years' extended warranty, that's a lot to give away if you buy a new one and convert it within the warranty period.

 

My suggestion to anyone finding they run low on solar charging in the winter is to a) turn the fridge off and b) fit more panels.

[Tony1]

15 minutes ago, Puffling said:

 

My suggestion to anyone finding they run low on solar charging in the winter is to a) turn the fridge off and b) fit more panels.

 

At the moment I have about 1.4kw of panels, and it would be difficult to fit more up there without significant compromises.

My concern would be that the solar power is so low in the winter that even if I fitted twice as many panels, it probably still wouldn't power the fridge all day. Two times nothing is still nothing- well almost.

And I'm not going to limit my mooring options to places where the sides face south and I can tilt them, etc. 

 

I'm just not happy living without the fridge in winter- at least not at the moment.

But there's no space in my cratch for bags of food either. In winter it has several bags of coal in it, a trolley, mini washing machine, often some bags of garbage, wood pieces and paint tins from the current DIY project, plus whatever other gear I have no room for indoors. Its just not a nice place to put bags/containers with food in them. 

 

But I get why people switch their fridge off in deepest winter. Keeping it running probably costs me the more than  half a litre of diesel per day, and that goes on for maybe 90 days. So there is a definite and significant cost, and I may revisit it in future. 

 

 

Edited July 22, 2023 by Tony1

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Theo said:

Edited to add:  I leave the gas bottle in the locker and have a long flexible hose.  The pressure reducer is on the gas bottle with a "Gas fuse".

 

This bothers me. The pressure regulator ought really to be at the generator end. Unless you have a "long flexible hose" the size of a drain pipe.

 

Maybe it works fine, but the pressure drop in a 'long hose' will be significant, leading to less pressure at the generator than it is expecting. This may cause reduced power output and/or poorer combustion. Equally it may not, but anyone copying this idea should be aware of the possibility. 

[Theo]

27 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

Do you have any feel for the relative costs of the different fuel types? 

Gas bottles are not cheap, and I only have room for one in my bow gas locker and one in the stern locker, so accommodating a third would be a challenge- but worth considering if the economic case is there. 

 

If we say a 1000 watt genny uses 0.5 litres per hour, then a the cost of a gas bottle will buy enough fuel to run the genny for many hours- the exact figure will depend on the model in use. How many hours do you (roughly) estimate a small converted genny will run on a full propane bottle? 

 

My records from 2015 - 2016 tell me that from the time I bought the Kipor 1000 I ran it for 250hrs and bought 3 x 13kg bottles of gas for it.  I should also add that in that 250hrs I also bought 5.3 litres of petrol, which I used before I fitted the gas conversion.

 

HTH

 

Nick

[Tony1]

15 minutes ago, Theo said:

My records from 2015 - 2016 tell me that from the time I bought the Kipor 1000 I ran it for 250hrs and bought 3 x 13kg bottles of gas for it.  I should also add that in that 250hrs I also bought 5.3 litres of petrol, which I used before I fitted the gas conversion.

 

HTH

 

Nick

 

That looks like very good economy indeed.

If you say that that the 5 litres of petrol ran it for about 10 hours, that's 240 hours running on 39kgs of propane. 

I cant remember what my last bottle cost, but I'd guess it was approaching £40. 

If you work on a sort of worst-case scenario of £40 per bottle, that's £120 total, for 240 hours- so 50p per hour of running, 

If you say a litre of petrol will run a 1000 watt genny for what- two hours maybe(?), then that's about 75p per hour of running, if you assume the petrol costs around £1.50 per litre..

Petrol prices go all over the place, and gas varies too, so cost comparisons are never going to be easy, but 50p vs 75p  per hour has to be considered a very significant cost difference. 

But as Puffling pointed out, the warranty issue is a complication, and with a brand new honda genny, most people will stick with petrol and thus keep the warranty valid.  

 

 

Edited July 22, 2023 by Tony1

[Theo]

7 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

That looks like very good economy indeed.

If you say that that the 5 litres of petrol ran it for about 10 hours, that's 240 hours running on 39kgs of propane. 

I cant remember what my last bottle cost, but I'd guess it was approaching £40. 

If you work on a sort of worst-case scenario of £40 per bottle, that's £120 total, for 240 hours- so 50p per hour of running, 

If you say a litre of petrol will run a 1000 watt genny for what- two hours maybe(?), then that's about 75p per hour of running, if you assume the petrol costs around £1.50 per litre..

Petrol prices go all over the place, and gas varies too, so cost comparisons are never going to be easy, but 50p vs 75p  per hour has to be considered a very significant cost difference. 

But as Puffling pointed out, the warranty issue is a complication, and with a brand new honda genny, most people will stick with petrol and thus keep the warranty valid.  

 

 

You could run it on petrol until it's out of warranty and then switch to gas.

 

N

[Tony1]

45 minutes ago, Theo said:

You could run it on petrol until it's out of warranty and then switch to gas.

 

N

 

I have a extra complication, which is that my shoreline/mains battery charger will only charge at 30 amps. 

If my usage is about 120Ah of charge per day, and if I get 20Ah per day from solar, then at 30 amps charging,  I would need to run the genny for more than 3 hours every day, and that would be happening on about 80-90 days of the year. 

This is not a gas vs petrol issue as such- but in my case, to make any kind of genny charging worthwhile, I would have to get rid of my Sterling PCU1230 unit (which is very versatile and decent quality), and splash out a few hundred on a more powerful 240v to 12v battery charger. 

I would also look at a 2000 watts genny, which might charge at 80 amps or so, and that way I could get the days charging done in maybe 90 mins, as opposed to 3 hours. 

I really wouldnt want to have to run a genny for 3 hours every day, not even a fairly quiet one. 

I think the cost of a better charger will put me off genny charging for a while longer- but ultimately, using a genny must be better than running the engine, so I'll still be pondering it. 

 

 

 

Edited July 22, 2023 by Tony1

[Tony Brooks]

10 hours ago, Tony1 said:

 

I have a extra complication, which is that my shoreline/mains battery charger will only charge at 30 amps. 

If my usage is about 120Ah of charge per day, and if I get 20Ah per day from solar, then at 30 amps charging,  I would need to run the genny for more than 3 hours every day, and that would be happening on about 80-90 days of the year. 

This is not a gas vs petrol issue as such- but in my case, to make any kind of genny charging worthwhile, I would have to get rid of my Sterling PCU1230 unit (which is very versatile and decent quality), and splash out a few hundred on a more powerful 240v to 12v battery charger. 

I would also look at a 2000 watts genny, which might charge at 80 amps or so, and that way I could get the days charging done in maybe 90 mins, as opposed to 3 hours. 

I really wouldnt want to have to run a genny for 3 hours every day, not even a fairly quiet one. 

I think the cost of a better charger will put me off genny charging for a while longer- but ultimately, using a genny must be better than running the engine, so I'll still be pondering it. 

 

 

 

 

I have had a very quick scan back, well as far as "liquid molly's" contribution, and have not noticed the type of batteries in use. If they are not lithiums I think the figures here are very suspect.

[Tony1]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I have had a very quick scan back, well as far as "liquid molly's" contribution, and have not noticed the type of batteries in use. If they are not lithiums I think the figures here are very suspect.

 

Apologies Tony, I'm a bit slow this morning- what figures are you referring to? 

I do have lithium batteries, but I think the OP has lead acid, and the odds are so does Theo.  

I do often make the mistake of not mentioning that my batteries are lithium, and they will have a different charging performance to lead acids. 

 

I would guess that about 25-30% of the 240 recorded genny hours on Theo were done whilst 'topping up' the final 20% of the lead acid charge, and at in this phase the charging current will have been reduced significantly, right?

Whereas with lithiums you would get the full 60 amps (or whatever) until the genny is switched off.

If I've understood it correctly, all that means the running costs when charging lithiums would be even lower than my very rough estimates.

 

Edited July 23, 2023 by Tony1

[Tony Brooks]

Thanks, your figures are probably fine, but one needs to be careful that users of lithium batteries do not misinform or confuse those with lead acids. If you had lead acids, your charging times would be far too short.

[MtB]

42 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

I would guess that about 25-30% of the 240 recorded genny hours on Theo were done whilst 'topping up' the final 20% of the lead acid charge, and at in this phase the charging current will have been reduced significantly, right?

 

I'd say the final 20% of charge on a LA battery takes more like 75% of the total generator running time, when charging from 50% to 99%.

[Tony1]

19 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I'd say the final 20% of charge on a LA battery takes more like 75% of the total generator running time, when charging from 50% to 99%.

 

I'm sure that's accurate Mike, and what I think it points to is big fuel savings when charging lithiums compared to lead acids with a genny. 

 

Theo's figures were for 240 hours of real life charging over a 2 year period. 

If I may don my inspector Clouseau hat for a moment, I would say that 120 hours genny charging per year (or static engine charging, for some folks)  is not indicative of a year-round liveaboard CCer (it looks like a trad style boat too, so probably not loads of solar panels either).

It would be too tedious to delve into all the detail, so I sort of assumed he doesn't live aboard, and when out cruising he moves the boat a few times per week.

Or if he does liveaboard, he cruises on lots of days. 

So its possible that the longer final charging phase for his lead acids was done when cruising, and the genny was a sort of backup if they hadn't been cruising for a day or two. 

If my wild guesswork is correct, then the genny might not have been doing too much of the final 20% charging phase. 

But who knows- all I can really say is that its more economical with lithiums!

 

ETA- my assistant Cato has just pointed out that I'm year-round liveaboard, and I only do about 100 hours of static engine charging per year, so my cunning theory appears to be in tatters (like most of my theories, to be fair).

I do have a million watts of solar panels though, there is that.

 

 

 

Edited July 23, 2023 by Tony1

[David Mack]

13 hours ago, Tony1 said:

I'm just not happy living without the fridge in winter- at least not at the moment.

But there's no space in my cratch for bags of food either. In winter it has several bags of coal in it, a trolley, mini washing machine, often some bags of garbage, wood pieces and paint tins from the current DIY project, plus whatever other gear I have no room for indoors. Its just not a nice place to put bags/containers with food in them. 

What about an underfloor/bilge locker to keep food cool without a fridge?

[Tony1]

10 minutes ago, David Mack said:

What about an underfloor/bilge locker to keep food cool without a fridge?

 

Thats not a bad shout David. 

Bit of woodworking involved so that would end up a bit of a mess knowing me, but the idea is sound, and I've been wondering about cutting out some sort of inspection hole anyway, in order to check the bilges regularly. 

 

 

Edited July 23, 2023 by Tony1

[blackrose]

19 hours ago, Puffling said:

AFAIK, fitting a gas conversion kit invalidates any warranty on your genny. With my Honda EU2200i having 5 years' extended warranty, that's a lot to give away if you buy a new one and convert it within the warranty period.

 

That's correct. If any fault or malfunction on a Honda petrol generator is found to be due to a gas conversion then the warranty is invalidated. Also it's worth bearing in mind that running a generator on gas results in higher cylinder head temperatures so service intervals need to be more frequent.

[truckcab79]

Any thoughts on Senci suitcase generators, or are the Kipor generally considered better?   
 

I’ll be needing one to run the occasional corded power tools and also makes sense to have one for use on the boat generally once we’re up and running.  
 

So sanders and the like, chargers for my battery tools possibly though I have loads of batteries. And of course for general life on board as required.  Charging boat batteries when needed presumably.
 

2kW, 3kW ??   
 

[Alan de Enfield]

20 minutes ago, truckcab79 said:

2kW, 3kW ??

 

Lifting a 3kw on and off the boat (you are not thinking of running it on the boat - ARE YOU) can be a bit awkward.

 

My Kipor is rated at 2kva (peak) but when you look down into the specifications it is only rated at 1600 kva continuous (are you aware of the differences between kva and watts ? and depends on the power factor of the 'tool' in use.)

 

My Kipor weighs 22kg and is not easy to lift up and over the rails, carry over a wobbly gangplank etc so be aware of weight.

 

 

 

 

 

A 3Kw is likely to weigh around 37kgs and will probably more noisy  as well :

 

 

Villiers G3000i Petrol Driven Inverter Generator (henrypumps.co.uk)

 

 

Edited August 31, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[truckcab79]

Depends what you mean? ‘On’ as in inside then no. On the back to an extension lead then yes.  
 

For ease of use I assume for my applications a 1kw might be more suitable?   
 

and no, not read up on the different ratings as yet or what type I need in any depth.  Still researching.  I’ve often looked at them for work and not bothered as for what I need to run they normally appear impracticably large and expensive and noisy.