Sailing the seas of Confusing Portable Generators

[Alan de Enfield]

The CO poisoning statistics are certainly much easier to find for the USA as the US coastguard regularly publish them.

 

I'm guessing that their figures are so high because they have :

1) More boats that we do, &

2) The majority of their leisure boats are 'gas' (petrol) powered which is worse than diesel for producing CO

 

 

The U.S. Coast Guard reported 41 incidents of boat-related carbon monoxide poisoning and five deaths in 2020.

[IanD]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The CO poisoning statistics are certainly much easier to find for the USA as the US coastguard regularly publish them.

 

I'm guessing that their figures are so high because they have :

1) More boats that we do, &

2) The majority of their leisure boats are 'gas' (petrol) powered which is worse than diesel for producing CO

 

 

The U.S. Coast Guard reported 41 incidents of boat-related carbon monoxide poisoning and five deaths in 2020.

So how many of these were from propulsion (mainly petrol) engines, how many from appliances like heaters/stoves, and how many from portable (petrol?) generators?

 

As @MtB says, it's important to use proper information, not just lump in deaths from other causes that happen to fall into the same "CO poisoning" bucket... 😉

[Momac]

3 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Yes indeed. And its sobering to read the MAIB reports you linked to, and to consider a WORKING carbon monoxide alarm would probably have saved several lives. 

 

Your links however, are to cases where the boat engine did the damage not a generator, and another report I read of CO deaths on a boat turned out to be their cooker being used for space heating. In 50 years of portable gennys being available I've only encountered one case of one killing the user so far, and their CO alarm had flat batteries IIRC.

 

 

Well at least you recognise CO can kill.

The number or deaths in the UK annually is as follows (not big numbers).

Perhaps only  a small minority of boat owners  run a  petrol generator with the generator on the boat which could be why there are so few deaths .

 

 

[IanD]

26 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Well at least you recognise CO can kill.

The number or deaths in the UK annually is as follows (not big numbers).

Perhaps only  a small minority of boat owners  run a  petrol generator with the generator on the boat which could be why there are so few deaths .

 

 

Water kills *far* more people than CO. Maybe we should ban water? 😉

 

If nobody (or very *very* few people) has ever actually died of CO poisoning from running a portable genny on the boat stern -- not indoors, not with a bodged exhaust -- then telling people this is really dangerous is scaremongering, isn't it?

 

A theoretical risk which never arises in reality is just that, theoretical. You might as well worry about being struck by a meteorite... 😉

 

If people have actually died from this then maybe that changes things, but so far nobody seems to have come up with an actual case.

Edited September 1, 2023 by IanD

[MtB]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

 

Water kills *far* more people than CO. Maybe we should ban water? 😉

 

Definitely. All water should be banned from boats given the evidence. 

 

 

 

 

[IanD]

22 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Definitely. All water should be banned from boats given the evidence. 

 

And Calor gas, with all those explosions and CO/CO2 poisoning incidents...

 

And solid-fuel stoves, they've almost certainly killed more people on boats than portable gennys on the stern...

Edited September 1, 2023 by IanD

[magnetman]

People need banning from boats given that almost all accidents are caused by them .

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, IanD said:

And Calor gas, with all those explosions and CO/CO2 poisoning incidents...

 

Yes HUNDREDS of explosions. Bound to be, although I don't have any evidince. 

 

 

[IanD]

4 minutes ago, magnetman said:

People need banning from boats given that almost all boating accidents are caused by them .

 

I don't think many car accidents are caused by them... 😉

[Tony1]

On 01/09/2023 at 17:28, IanD said:

And Calor gas, with all those explosions and CO/CO2 poisoning incidents...

 

And solid-fuel stoves, they've almost certainly killed more people on boats than portable gennys on the stern...

 

Tbh my SF stove could have killed me but for the CO alarm.

In my first winter I did not give any thought to the risks of CO, after I read several accounts (on here), from boaters who stated that they left their stove running 24/7, from October until April.

One night (in late Feb think), I was woken by a loud beeping noise (which was also a bit embarrassing as I was in a marina). 

I tracked down where the noise was coming from and got the doors and windows opened, then held my fingers over the beeper to minimise the disturbance to my neighbours, until the CO levels went down and it stopped. 

My chimney had become blocked to a dangerous extent because it hadn't been swept, so that was an critical safety lesson for me. 

When I see these dire warnings about how you will instantly fall dead the moment you even start a generator within 20 yards of a boat, I wonder how much is fear mongering from people who enjoy that as a pastime- but because I don't know the truth of the matter, I feel I have to pay heed to the advice- especially after my stove could have potentially killed me.

I di note last winter that many of the old hands- people who had been living aboard for a couple of decades and more- ran generators on the bank, and not on their boats, and that inclined me towards taking the risks more seriously. 

It may be, as I suspect, that only one or two canal boaters have been killed by gennies within the last decade (as opposed to the hundreds who are slaughtered each week by their murderous lithium batteries)- but I am inclined to not run a genny on the stern unless I had an airtight box installed, with an exhaust that takes the gas over the side. 

If the steel box and exhaust pipe are professionally constructed, and if they guide the exhaust fumes down to the same location as the engine exhaust pipe, then it shouldn't be any more dangerous than the engine exhaust, right?

I give very little credence to the BSS statements, and their claims about the dozens of tragic deaths. Their job is probably to be professional fear mongers, after all, in order to get people to take risks seriously. But if the old hands are running their gennies on the bank, that does make me think twice about it. 

 

Edited September 2, 2023 by Tony1

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

I give very little credence to the BSS statements, and their claims about the dozens of tragic deaths. Their job is probably to be professional fear mongers, after all, in order to get people to take risks seriously. But if the old hands are running their gennies on the bank, that does make me think twice about it. 

 

I've run mine on the stern deck for decades. 

 

Mind you I have three closed doors between the genny outside and the living quarters. Back doors, door each end of the engine room. 

 

 

[Tony1]

2 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I've run mine on the stern deck for decades. 

 

Mind you I have three closed doors between the genny outside and the living quarters. Back doors, door each end of the engine room. 

 

 

 

My worry is that my stern deck has a 6 inch raised lip around it, and the only route for any noxious fumes on the stern is down the steps and either through the water drain into the engine bay, OR through the door vent and into the cabin. 

And my worry is that gases like that could accumulate in the bilges, and their level could gradually rise into the cabin space. That said, a floor level  CO alarm should detect exhaust fumes, but I feel like I dont know enough about the risks and the behaviour of gases to want to take the chance. 

My type of stern would be a pretty dangerous place for a genny I reckon. 

 

 

[DShK]

Just don't see why running on the bank is a big deal? If I'm worried about mine being nicked I lock it to my mooring chain...

 

Noisier closer to the boat as well isn't it?

 

Perhaps it's going to save your health, or perhaps it's the modern equivalent of gorse fairies? But why take the risk when it's zero inconvenience...

Edited September 2, 2023 by DShK

[Tony1]

3 minutes ago, DShK said:

Just don't see why running on the bank is a big deal? If I'm worried about mine being nicked I lock it to my mooring chain...

 

 

In reality, the winter is when you need a genny - in summer your panels will do the charging. 

And in winter, a lot of the time you will be moored in a line of boats pretty much end to end in places like Nantwich or Ellesmere, so that you don't have to trudge through 300 yards of mud to reach a road. 

So the genny has to be close to boat- you're not going to move your genny 20 yards away as per BSS advice and prevailing wind etc), if that means it is sat beside someone else's boat. 

But to your specific point, I think its no bother to lift a 1kw genny onto the bank. But they only give out maybe 30-40amps, so I would guess they need running for 2 or 3 hours each day in winter. 

If you have a 2kw genny that will give out say 50-80 amps, it allows you to get your charging done much more quickly, so I can see the attraction of that. But those types often weigh 20kgs and more, and carrying one of those from boat to bank and back again (especially in places where you need to use a plank, and when the banks are wet, muddy and very slippery) could potentially be a bit dicey, so I can see why people who have the heavier gennies would want to look at whether there is a safe way to run their genny on the boat, and not have to lug it about. 

And before the safety police attack- I'm not saying it is safe, I'm just saying I can understand why people would at least look into it. 

 

[magnetman]

When I was running a small generator for power before sensible solar panels turned up I kept it on the step partly to minimise noise levels for other people. 

 

I dislike noise so don't really think it appropriate to expose others to that noise. Sound does travel across water rather well. A genny partly in the boat will be quieter for other people than one placed on the towpath. 

 

 

 

 

[booke23]

2 hours ago, Tony1 said:

If the steel box and exhaust pipe are professionally constructed, and if they guide the exhaust fumes down to the same location as the engine exhaust pipe, then it shouldn't be any more dangerous than the engine exhaust, right?

 

 

In theory, but small carburettor petrol engines in generators are tuned slightly rich. Their exhaust is about 10% carbon monoxide (100,000ppm) compared to less than 0.1% (1000ppm) for a diesel engine. People have been killed from CO emitted from an inboard petrol engine with a perfectly functioning and manufacturer installed exhaust on the waterline, so care is still needed. Make sure your CO alarm's batteries don't go flat.

[MtB]

15 minutes ago, booke23 said:

In theory, but small carburettor petrol engines in generators are tuned slightly rich. Their exhaust is about 10% carbon monoxide (100,000ppm) compared to less than 0.1% (1000ppm) for a diesel engine.

 

Mind you, thats the concentration coming out of the exhaust pipe. Mix it with a few cubic metres of cabin air and you're back down to a few hundrend PPM probably. 

 

Still enough to kill you. Just not as quickly. 

 

Best to get two CO alarms, from different manus. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tony1]

14 minutes ago, booke23 said:

 

People have been killed from CO emitted from an inboard petrol engine with a perfectly functioning and manufacturer installed exhaust on the waterline, so care is still needed. 

 

 

Do you have the numbers or any details from any official bodies for these deaths, including the year they took place? 

The phrase "People have been killed" seem to almost verge on fear mongering.

Although I know you're not trying to do that, the devil (and the credibility) is in the detail, and I think it would help to know the details if possible, otherwise it might come across as anecdotal reports without any basis in fact. 

Just to be clear, I'm not planning to install a genny on the stern myself- I'm happy to use my engine for the 90 or so days I need some extra charge during winter. 

If people have been killed by exhaust fumes from correctly functioning exhausts from petrol engines, what hope is there for anyone with a petrol engine? What is the message people are meant to take from that? Should nobody have a petrol engine? 

And what about when the wind blows the exhaust fumes towards the boat next to you?  

 

[MtB]

6 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

Do you have the numbers or any details from any official bodies for these deaths, including the year they took place? 

The phrase "People have been killed" seem to almost verge on fear mongering.

 

Alan posted two links upthread. MAIB investigations.

[booke23]

8 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

Do you have the numbers or any details from any official bodies for these deaths, including the year they took place? 

The phrase "People have been killed" seem to almost verge on fear mongering.

Although I know you're not trying to do that, the devil (and the credibility) is in the detail, and I think it would help to know the details if possible, otherwise it might come across as anecdotal reports without any basis in fact. 

Just to be clear, I'm not planning to install a genny on the stern myself- I'm happy to use my engine for the 90 or so days I need some extra charge during winter. 

If people have been killed by exhaust fumes from correctly functioning exhausts from petrol engines, what hope is there for anyone with a petrol engine? What is the message people are meant to take from that? Should nobody have a petrol engine? 

And what about when the wind blows the exhaust fumes towards the boat next to you?  

 

 

Here's one from last year. It's an eye opening read.

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/64467c48814c66000c8d0501/2023-1-EmmaLouise-Report.pdf

 

There are more if you delve the MAIB archive. 

[Tony1]

6 minutes ago, booke23 said:

 

Here's one from last year. It's an eye opening read.

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/64467c48814c66000c8d0501/2023-1-EmmaLouise-Report.pdf

 

There are more if you delve the MAIB archive. 

 

Whilst I would never advocate running a genny on a cruiser stern with a raised lip like mine, I do think there also needs to be some proportionality in terms of viewing the risks. 

There seem to be a small handful of death reports in what- two decades, maybe more?

And that includes both inland and offshore craft, like the sport cruisers featured in both of those reports.  All told that must be many tens of thousands of craft, taken over many, many years. And probably less than ten deaths attributable to exhaust fumes? 

The lesson seems to be never allow petrol exhaust fumes to be funnelled back into a lower level cabin space (including by the action of wind), where they will then accumulate. 

In one of those cases it was a 5.7 litre engine (with a lot of exhaust fumes), but even a 50cc genny will accumulate eventually. 

I'm still not convinced that more than one or two examples can be found of deaths on narrowboats caused by gennies, in the last decade or so. 

Gennies are not killing any more than a tiny handful of people on narrowboats. If even that. Certainly fewer than fires, or stove fumes.

But all that said, I would not run a genny on my stern, and especially not after reading the reports. 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

7 hours ago, Tony1 said:

If people have been killed by exhaust fumes from correctly functioning exhausts from petrol engines, what hope is there for anyone with a petrol engine?

 

I have posted links to 3 incidents (multiple deaths) that were caused by petrol engine exhaust fumes blowing back into the boat, and another incident where the gas cooker was being used as a 'heater' which resulted in flooding the cabin with CO, resulting in deaths.

 

Being blase about 10 deaths in 20 years is fine unless you, or a family member, happen to be one of those deaths, or possibly even worse , one of the accidents that result in severe brain damage and you end up a vegetable for the rest of your life.

[Tony1]

59 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I have posted links to 3 incidents (multiple deaths) that were caused by petrol engine exhaust fumes blowing back into the boat, and another incident where the gas cooker was being used as a 'heater' which resulted in flooding the cabin with CO, resulting in deaths.

 

Being blase about 10 deaths in 20 years is fine unless you, or a family member, happen to be one of those deaths, or possibly even worse , one of the accidents that result in severe brain damage and you end up a vegetable for the rest of your life.

 

In my opinion I am not being blase about any deaths, especially since I said that after reading those reports I would not run a generator on my stern. 

 

But what people are more interested in, in terms of making their own assessment of the risks, is how many times it happened. The multiple deaths in each incident adds to the tragedy, but we need to know how likely it is that an incident will occur. 

And from what I can tell, out of several hundred thousand craft (since they are including all the offshore as well as inland waterways craft), and over a period of it seem about two decades, petrol exhaust caused deaths three times. 

I'm not personally including the gas cooker incident, in fact in my opinion, its verging on fear mongering to try to rope that incident into in a discussion about petrol genny safety.   

 

Of the three incidents resulting in death, none were on a narrowboat, and only one was on an inland waterways craft of any type. 

To repeat, I promise you that I absolutely do not want to play down the risks posed by petrol gennies, and I would never advise anyone to plonk a genny on the stern and run it there. 

But the on other hand, I also think its misleading to play up the risks by including things like gas cooker incidents. 

 

There are many thousands of GRP craft plying the inland waterways and using petrol outboards, and there seems to be only the one report of an incident with fatalities in the last 2 or 3 decades- and I think that was an inboard petrol engine.

The other two reports involved much larger engines on offshore sport cruisers. 

Don't get me wrong- I think any petrol engine has to be treated as a major CO hazard (and I sincerely thank you guys for clarifying that), and they must never, ever be treated lightly. 

But conversely, I'm not sure it helps to create an atmosphere of almost religious terror about the use of petrol gennies either. 

The exhaust from a small petrol engine, if sealed off from the cabin and directed out from the boat near to the waterline, is clearly not statistically a major risk, at least judging from the vast number of GRP owners who are still alive and using this sort of engine at the back of their boat.

I'm not saying for a moment there is no risk at all from a petrol exhaust near to the waterline- clearly even the small engines can be deadly dangerous. But maybe this is an area where the risks are being over stated a bit? I'm just asking that particular question- I'm honestly not trying to be blase about the risks, only to understand them better. 

But it has made me think about how safe I am when a GRP boat is running a petrol outboard immediately behind me and the wind is coming my way. Thankfully they tend to switch them off as soon as they stop.

In my view, people only need to be told that exhaust fumes were blown back into a boat and killed the occupants because of the way they accumulate and their level rises to fill the cabin. That is enough to wake up and smell the coffee, so to speak.

Knowing that my boat will effectively act like a tub- and will gradually fill from the bottom up with CO - is a terrifying thought, and a risk that I will take very very seriously. 

But on a related note, I do not trust some organisations, like the BSS for example. They are clearly over-playing the risks of LiFeP04 batteries, as an example, and that sort of fear mongering for me spoils their credibility when they describe real risks, like petrol gennies and stoves etc. 

 

 

Edited September 3, 2023 by Tony1

[magnetman]

The fact that ventilation is not mandatory for the BS scheme gives the game away slightly. 

 

A boat with properly designed low level ventilation, which can be achieved by the use of butt weld elbows on deck and steel pipe down to floor level then another elbow, will tend to have cleaner air in it. 

 

The barge I used to own was previously a restaurant boat and did have proper low level ventilation executed like that. Some people would call it a draught but I did like the scavenging effect of having air movement across the floor. Just seems a sensible design to me in a boat and something I would specify if having a canal boat built. 

 

 

 

 

[booke23]

2 hours ago, Tony1 said:

I'm not saying for a moment there is no risk at all from a petrol exhaust near to the waterline- clearly even the small engines can be deadly dangerous. But maybe this is an area where the risks are being over stated a bit? I'm just asking that particular question- I'm honestly not trying to be blase about the risks, only to understand them better. 

 

It is curious that there have been no fatalities on Narrowboats, given how common generators are on the cut. However a common denominator in a lot of CO deaths is lack of ventilation. Narrowboats tend to be well ventilated, and with Carbon monoxide being slightly lighter than air it would have a tendency to escape via the mushroom vents, thus reducing the chance of a fatal buildup.