Sailing the seas of Confusing Portable Generators

[IanD]

4 minutes ago, booke23 said:

 

It is curious that there have been no fatalities on Narrowboats, given how common generators are on the cut. However a common denominator in a lot of CO deaths is lack of ventilation. Narrowboats tend to be well ventilated, and with Carbon monoxide being slightly lighter than air it would have a tendency to escape via the mushroom vents, thus reducing the chance of a fatal buildup. 

 

Maybe it's not curious, just that the risks of using portable generators have often been exaggerated? 😉

 

The density difference is small, all the references I can find says that CO just ends up mixing with the air in a room/boat not rising to the ceiling.

 

EIther way, a generator outside on the stern -- presumably usually outside at least one closed door? -- must be *many* times less risky than a solid fuel stove or gas cooker inside the boat (or a generator inside with a bodeged exhaust), and this is borne out by the reported fatalities in this thread due to these causes, but AFAIK none due to a generator outside on the stern of a canal boat. Unless somebody knows better... 😉

[MtB]

I think Tony nails it with his comment coining the term 'proportionality'. 

 

Yes CO poisoning in boats is a risk and several people appear to die per year, out of (probably) several hundred thousand boats on our canals, rivers and coasts. So CO poisoning needs taking seriously.

 

No-one has yet found a case of death from a portable petrol generator though, except for the one incident where someone attempted to convert theirs to a fixed installation and caused two fatalities with his unauthorised exhaust pipe modifications. 

 

So proportionally speaking, portable petrol gennies present an effectively negligible risk of death when used according to the manufacturer's instructions.

[IanD]

3 minutes ago, MtB said:

I think Tony nails it with his comment coining the term 'proportionality'. 

 

Yes CO poisoning in boats is a risk and several people appear to die per year, out of (probably) several hundred thousand boats on our canals, rivers and coasts. So CO poisoning needs taking seriously.

 

No-one has yet found a case of death from a portable petrol generator though, except for the one incident where someone attempted to convert theirs to a fixed installation and caused two fatalities with his unauthorised exhaust pipe modifications. 

 

So proportionally speaking, portable petrol gennies present an effectively negligible risk of death when used according to the manufacturer's instructions.

 

Indeed - solid fuel stoves seem to be responsible for most of the CO deaths on canal boats, but I don't see many people here or elsewhere saying they should therefore be banned as dangerous...

Edited September 3, 2023 by IanD

[MtB]

 

 

 

1 minute ago, IanD said:

The density difference is small, all the references I can find says that CO just ends up mixing with the air in a room/boat not rising to the ceiling.

 

Indeed. CO doesn't sink to the floor as someone described in this thread earlier. I hold that the opposite tends to happen actually, in that it tends to rise because it originates in combustion - so it is initially hotter than the atmosphere it is mixing with.

 

 

 

[Tony1]

5 minutes ago, booke23 said:

 

It is curious that there have been no fatalities on Narrowboats, given how common generators are on the cut. However a common denominator in a lot of CO deaths is lack of ventilation. Narrowboats tend to be well ventilated, and with Carbon monoxide being slightly lighter than air it would have a tendency to escape via the mushroom vents, thus reducing the chance of a fatal buildup. 

 

I'm no expert (which is why I'm grateful for more well-informed people to give warnings here), but I suspect you're right. 

Apparently its a common myth about CO being heavier than air. 

An offshore sport cruiser would probably want far fewer holes/vents in its hull than a narrrowboat, given the extreme conditions some sail in.

So they are maybe intrinsically more vulnerable to build up of gases inside? 

But again, I would not want to downplay the risk to narrowboaters- as some have said, life-changing brain and other injuries can occur from CO poisoning- outright death is not the only risk. 

I would want to narrow down my personal interest to this question:

How safe is it to enclose a 2kw genny in a steel box on the stern, with an exhaust pipe leading down almost to the water line? 

Its not allowed anyway by BSS, so its a moot point. But then BSS consider that LiFeP04 batteries are dangerous, when they are no more dangerous than lead acids. 

So the question arises in my mind of when can their claims about risk actually be trusted?  

 

 

[booke23]

8 minutes ago, IanD said:

Maybe it's not curious, just that the risks of using portable generators have often been exaggerated? 😉

 

 

https://www.gmp.police.uk/news/greater-manchester/news/news/2021/february/two-men-have-been-jailed-after-a-tenant-joao-afonso-died-in-his-flat-at-wood-street-middleton-from-carbon-monoxide-poisoning/

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11751575/Mother-50-daughter-17-die-carbon-monoxide-burger-van.html

 

https://www.theconstructionindex.co.uk/news/view/generator-fumes-killed-site-security-guard

 

https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/10916988.tributes-paid-to-ken-and-dorothy-swallow-thought-to-have-died-from-carbon-monoxide-poisoning/

 

https://stories.swns.com/news/camper-dies-from-carbon-monoxide-poisoning-due-to-generator-outside-20814/

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

How safe is it to enclose a 2kw genny in a steel box on the stern, with an exhaust pipe leading down almost to the water line?

 

DON'T, if its a portable genny you are considering modifying.

 

If you read the instructions they usually warn against casing in and /or altering or extending the exhaust. 

 

If you mean a genny designed to be a fixed installation (£5-10k typically), then probably fine provided you install in accordance with the supplied manual. 

 

The trouble starts when someone thinks "Oh I could make this five hunded quid portable into a fixed installation, why do I need to need to spend £5k?"

[Tony1]

2 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

DON'T, if its a portable genny you are considering modifying.

 

If you read the instructions they usually warn against casing in and /or altering or extending the exhaust. 

 

If you mean a genny designed to be a fixed installation (£5-10k typically), then probably fine provided you install in accordance with the supplied manual. 

 

The trouble starts when someone thinks "Oh I could make this five hunded quid portable into a fixed installation, why do I need to need to spend £5k?"

 

Its not a plan for myself as such- I'm ok with running the engine to charge if needed. 

But I was idly curious, that's all. 

I can see that constructing an air intake and an exhaust system would be a lot of hassle, and would not resolve the safety concerns.

Colour me convinced. 

 

So how about this:

If I construct a steel box with a harness, and strap the generator to my body,  I can then watch TV or cook dinner whilst recharging?

Or better still, mount the generator on my head?  If only some sort of head-cradle could be fashioned....

 

 

[MtB]

43 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

I can see that constructing an air intake and an exhaust system would be a lot of hassle,

 

Its not that it's a hassle, its that the genny will be tested and approved for sale to the general public and if a general publicist starts fiddling with the design of their shiny new genny, the type approval ceases to be valid. 

 

Then when you they die a horrible death as a result of modifying your their genny, who are you they gonna sue?

 

 

[magnetman]

2 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Its not that it's a hassle, its that the genny will be tested and approved for sale to the general public and if a general publicist starts fiddling with the design of their shiny new genny, the type approval ceases to be valid. 

 

Then when you they die a horrible death as a result of modifying your their genny, who are you they gonna sue?

 

 

 

One can sue nobody if one is dead. 

 

The estate may. 

 

 

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

One can sue nobody if one is dead. 

 

The estate may. 

 

 

 

I see you got the joke! 

 

 

[IanD]

3 hours ago, booke23 said:

 

 

https://www.gmp.police.uk/news/greater-manchester/news/news/2021/february/two-men-have-been-jailed-after-a-tenant-joao-afonso-died-in-his-flat-at-wood-street-middleton-from-carbon-monoxide-poisoning/

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11751575/Mother-50-daughter-17-die-carbon-monoxide-burger-van.html

 

https://www.theconstructionindex.co.uk/news/view/generator-fumes-killed-site-security-guard

 

https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/10916988.tributes-paid-to-ken-and-dorothy-swallow-thought-to-have-died-from-carbon-monoxide-poisoning/

 

https://stories.swns.com/news/camper-dies-from-carbon-monoxide-poisoning-due-to-generator-outside-20814/

Yes carbon monoxide poisoning can kill people.

 

How many of these deaths were caused by portable generators on the stern of a canal boat?

[booke23]

21 minutes ago, IanD said:

How many of these deaths were caused by portable generators on the stern of a canal boat?

 

Your original post stated: -

 

3 hours ago, IanD said:

Maybe it's not curious, just that the risks of using portable generators have often been exaggerated? 😉

 

You didn't mention generators on canal boat sterns, just generators in general. 🤷‍♂️

[IanD]

51 minutes ago, booke23 said:

 

Your original post stated: -

 

 

You didn't mention generators on canal boat sterns, just generators in general. 🤷‍♂️

I think you know from the context -- referring to *your* post talking about canal boats -- exactly what I meant... 😉

Edited September 3, 2023 by IanD

[Alan de Enfield]

6 hours ago, booke23 said:

 

It is curious that there have been no fatalities on Narrowboats, given how common generators are on the cut. However a common denominator in a lot of CO deaths is lack of ventilation. Narrowboats tend to be well ventilated, and with Carbon monoxide being slightly lighter than air it would have a tendency to escape via the mushroom vents, thus reducing the chance of a fatal buildup. 

 

Co is very close in mass to air (0.0724 vs 0.0748 lb/ft3 and generally 'mixes with air, which is why the CO alarm installation instructions say to install the alarm at 'pillow height' near the bed as that is the air you breathe and if there is CO it will be hoveringa around at mid room height.

[MtB]

6 hours ago, booke23 said:

 

 

https://www.gmp.police.uk/news/greater-manchester/news/news/2021/february/two-men-have-been-jailed-after-a-tenant-joao-afonso-died-in-his-flat-at-wood-street-middleton-from-carbon-monoxide-poisoning/

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11751575/Mother-50-daughter-17-die-carbon-monoxide-burger-van.html

 

https://www.theconstructionindex.co.uk/news/view/generator-fumes-killed-site-security-guard

 

https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/10916988.tributes-paid-to-ken-and-dorothy-swallow-thought-to-have-died-from-carbon-monoxide-poisoning/

 

https://stories.swns.com/news/camper-dies-from-carbon-monoxide-poisoning-due-to-generator-outside-20814/

 

 

Hmmmm. Reading the reports, three of these were caused by generators being used indoors.

 

One more is indeterminate (in that the generator was being used 'to keep warm' but without saying how or where the generator was located.

 

The fifth was similar in that the generator was also being run "to keep warm" according to what the victim told his friends, but it was outside the doors of his tent. 

 

Looks as though portable petrol generators fall into a similar bracket as disposable barbeques. Apparently simple devices but deadly if the instructions are ignored. 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, MtB said:

Apparently simple devices but deadly if the instructions are ignored. 

 

 

 

What are the current instructions for the use of petrol generators on boats ?

[IanD]

1 minute ago, MtB said:

 

 

Hmmmm. Reading the reports, three of these were caused by generators being used indoors.

 

One more is indeterminate (in that the generator was being used 'to keep warm' but without saying how or where the generator was located.

 

The fifth was similar in that the generator was also being run "to keep warm" according to what the victim told his friends, but it was outside the doors of his tent. 

 

Looks as though portable petrol generators fall into a similar bracket as disposable barbeques. Apparently simple devices but deadly if the instructions are ignored. 

 

We should definitely ban disposable barbecues then -- they not only kill people with CO, they start wildfires, big problem especially this year.

 

And solid fuel stoves on boats, *much* more dangerous than generators going by the resulting fires and deaths... 😉

[magnetman]

Another relevant point is that there could be occasions where someone is actually trying to kill themselves and runs a generator indoors deliberately.

 

It has been known with cars and hoses on exhaust pipes. 

 

I don't know if newspapers would advertise it as it is apparently a bit of a taboo to advertise suicide methods. 

 

 

35 minutes ago, IanD said:

We should definitely ban disposable barbecues then -- they not only kill people with CO, they start wildfires, big problem especially this year.

 

And solid fuel stoves on boats, *much* more dangerous than generators going by the resulting fires and deaths... 😉

Did you mean last year ? 

[truckcab79]

So…….all the safety concerns aside.  During my proposed refurb if I’m running a couple of 400w sanders or say a sander and a battery charger for my 18v tools and then want to make sure it’s also enough to charge the boat batteries when I need to in the future then a Kipor 1000w would be sufficient or would you suggest the 2,000 but avoid going any higher due to weight of the unit?   
 

 

Or the Champion Mighty Atom 2,200 seems to get brilliant reviews for the same money and a little more power. 

[IanD]

54 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Another relevant point is that there could be occasions where someone is actually trying to kill themselves and runs a generator indoors deliberately.

 

It has been known with cars and hoses on exhaust pipes. 

 

I don't know if newspapers would advertise it as it is apparently a bit of a taboo to advertise suicide methods. 

 

Did you mean last year ? 

I think this year is the worst on record worldwide for wildfires... 😞

[magnetman]

I did think you were referring to this country and canal boats. 

 

 

[Tony1]

38 minutes ago, truckcab79 said:

So…….all the safety concerns aside.  During my proposed refurb if I’m running a couple of 400w sanders or say a sander and a battery charger for my 18v tools and then want to make sure it’s also enough to charge the boat batteries when I need to in the future then a Kipor 1000w would be sufficient or would you suggest the 2,000 but avoid going any higher due to weight of the unit?   
 

 

Or the Champion Mighty Atom 2,200 seems to get brilliant reviews for the same money and a little more power. 

 

That Mighty Atom looks pretty good, but I cant find the figure for its fuel consumption?

Also, don't trust the claimed 58db noise level-  that sounds quieter than a Honda, and it cant be that quiet for £500.   

At 18kgs it will be feasible to lift it onto the bank in lots of places you moor, so that's ok.

Certainly I can nearly always get my 23kg ebike onto the bank with a hand free to steady myself- although sometimes it doesn't feel like the safest thing ever. 

On a river or somewhere without a neatly defined bank it might get a bit sketchy getting it ashore along a plank, but on those occasions there is the option of using the engine to charge. 

 

The 1000 watt Kipor will be much easier to get on and off the bank, but it will probably only charge the batteries about half as fast as the Atom, so it might be running for 2 to 3 hours each day in winter.

 

 

[truckcab79]

Hmm. Many thanks.  That champion one seems very well regarded if the reviews are to be believed.  The weight doesn’t bother me too much to be honest as it’ll not be being moved around too often I don’t think.  
 

And having read all the replies prompted by my typo that made it look like I’d put it on ‘the back’ (bank) I’m probably going to just run it inside, perhaps next to the bed while we sleep.  😂😂😂

[agg221]

1 hour ago, truckcab79 said:

So…….all the safety concerns aside.  During my proposed refurb if I’m running a couple of 400w sanders or say a sander and a battery charger for my 18v tools and then want to make sure it’s also enough to charge the boat batteries when I need to in the future then a Kipor 1000w would be sufficient or would you suggest the 2,000 but avoid going any higher due to weight of the unit?   
 

 

Or the Champion Mighty Atom 2,200 seems to get brilliant reviews for the same money and a little more power. 

 

I have a generator for running power tools. It's a Kawasaki GA1400A (1400W), bought second hand and well used. I have run power tools up to 1200W and it works fine. I bought this size because it's difficult to find certain tools, particularly circular saws and power planes, below that power rating which are worth having and tools like battery angle grinders really take the run time on the battery down. It also means I can run a decent sized power drill with a hole saw for cutting steel, and even for drilling smaller holes such as for fixing portholes it cuts the drill time right down - about 3mins for a decent DeWalt battery drill, 20s for a 1200W corded Makita. It doesn't sound like much, but in the course of a day it really does add up.

 

Alec

Edited September 3, 2023 by agg221