Another Red Diesel Threat

[peterboat]

12 minutes ago, frangar said:

What exactly do you think could replace diesel on a construction site?? The JCB battery mini digger has become a standing joke...or should there be a number of each type of vehicle so that one can be on charge...probably from a diesel generator...while the next one is in use...

Dumper trucks, cement mixers can be LPG and bio diesel for the rest although they could be LPG powered as well, its way cleaner than diesel

2 minutes ago, Tim Lewis said:

Construction plant diesel engines have improved massively in recent years also as others have said any increase in costs will be passed directly to clients.

Tier 4 emissions? no cats, DPFs, EGRs, I have looked at a rand new diesel compressor no emissions equipment in sight

[cuthound]

28 minutes ago, frangar said:

What exactly do you think could replace diesel on a construction site?? The JCB battery mini digger has become a standing joke...or should there be a number of each type of vehicle so that one can be on charge...probably from a diesel generator...while the next one is in use...

 

Or the standby generators at your local hospital, telephone exchange or data centre?

 

With the resilience of the national grid getting worse, power outages get more common so a standby source of power becomes even more necessary.

 

The only alternative I have seen to the standby generator is the aluminium air battery, and that was a prototype 25 years ago. Too costly, limited standby life and takes to long to replace compared to a diesel generator, as it is a primary battery and thus cannot be recharged.

 

In Peter's world there will be deaths on the operating table, no 999 services, no internet, no cash machines, no buying goods on cards and no telephones available when the lights go out.

Edited March 6, 2020 by cuthound
Clarification

[Tim Lewis]

10 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Dumper trucks, cement mixers can be LPG and bio diesel for the rest although they could be LPG powered as well, its way cleaner than diesel

Tier 4 emissions? no cats, DPFs, EGRs, I have looked at a rand new diesel compressor no emissions equipment in sight

https://www.atlascopco.com/content/dam/atlas-copco/construction-technique/portable-energy/documents/1_compressors/Stage IV Emission Standards.pdf

 

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Dumper trucks, cement mixers can be LPG and bio diesel for the rest although they could be LPG powered as well, its way cleaner than diesel

Things like excavators tend to run all day on full throttle to get the HP needed to do the 'work'.

 

You don't have a throttle and gearbox (as such)  The throttle is set at 'full' and the movement of the tracks is controlled by hydraulics  and pedals. The hydraulics to control the booms and bucket is again run on hydraulics with the engine on full throttle.

 

Rooting around for information suggests that LPG has around 15% less 'energy' than Diesel or petrol.

Will a digger designed to use X horse power still function if it is getting less energy from LPG ?

 

LPG has a lower calorific value than petrol. (It produces less total heat and therefore less peak pressure in the cylinder.) Simply put, LPG gives slightly less 'bang' per charge. LPG is slightly less potent as an internal combustion engine fuel. The driver will instinctively react to this by opening the throttle more to achieve the desired speed or rate of speed increase (often called acceleration). Thus, more liquid fuel (LPG) will be used than when running on petrol.

[cuthound]

10 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Dumper trucks, cement mixers can be LPG and bio diesel for the rest although they could be LPG powered as well, its way cleaner than diesel

Tier 4 emissions? no cats, DPFs, EGRs, I have looked at a rand new diesel compressor no emissions equipment in sight

 

LPG produces more NOx than diesel, and biodiesel has a limited shelf life, so unsuitable for standby generators.

[frangar]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Things like excavators tend to run all day on full throttle to get the HP needed to do the 'work'.

 

You don't have a throttle and gearbox (as such)  The throttle is set at 'full' and the movement of the tracks is controlled by hydraulics  and pedals. The hydraulics to control the booms and bucket is again run on hydraulics with the engine on full throttle.

 

Rooting around for information suggests that LPG has around 15% less 'energy' than Diesel or petrol.

Will a digger designed to use X horse power still function if it is getting less energy from LPG ?

 

LPG has a lower calorific value than petrol. (It produces less total heat and therefore less peak pressure in the cylinder.) Simply put, LPG gives slightly less 'bang' per charge. LPG is slightly less potent as an internal combustion engine fuel. The driver will instinctively react to this by opening the throttle more to achieve the desired speed or rate of speed increase (often called acceleration). Thus, more liquid fuel (LPG) will be used than when running on petrol.

That’s without the risks associated with bulk storage of lpg either in cylinders or bulk tanks...plus the added risk of spark ignition engines on some sites

[Flyboy]

39 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Dumper trucks, cement mixers can be LPG and bio diesel for the rest although they could be LPG powered as well, its way cleaner than diesel

Tier 4 emissions? no cats, DPFs, EGRs, I have looked at a rand new diesel compressor no emissions equipment in sight

You conveniently forgot to mention the CO2 emissions.

Edited March 6, 2020 by Flyboy

[Guest]

3 hours ago, peterboat said:

It affects everybody until cheap fossil fuels are removed from sale we will continue to create more pollution than the earth can cope with.  Change has to start at a personal level, we have to make hard decisions for the greater good. 

OK Greta.

 

But as you have raised the issue of personal responsibility I can tell you I have made lots of changes to lifestyle to accommodate the needs of the climate, not because of being lectured by the likes of Miss Thunberg but rather it just seems the correct thing to do.

 

However there comes a point where it becomes impractical or prohibitively expensive to go further. Thousands of people propel their boats and heat their boats/homes using diesel and other fossil fuels, to change from that just isn't going to happen as it's unaffordable for thousands of people to change that. (Unless there will be significant subsidies from govt., which is never going to happen)

Edited March 6, 2020 by The Happy Nomad

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, Flyboy said:

You conveniently forgot to mention the CO2 emissions.

Lower than diesel 

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, frangar said:

That’s without the risks associated with bulk storage of lpg either in cylinders or bulk tanks...plus the added risk of spark ignition engines on some sites

I have converted cars to LPG for year's high compression ones lose little or no performance or fuel efficiency,  its 110 octane so can easily cope with it. It's used in warehouses because its safe and its very clean 

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, Tim Lewis said:

https://www.atlascopco.com/content/dam/atlas-copco/construction-technique/portable-energy/documents/1_compressors/Stage IV Emission Standards.pdf

 

You proved my point entirely dirty Teir 4 emissions 

1 hour ago, cuthound said:

 

LPG produces more NOx than diesel, and biodiesel has a limited shelf life, so unsuitable for standby generators.

5 times less NOX than a diesel its cleaner than petrol or diesel and cheaper so would save building sites money 

[Machpoint005]

31 minutes ago, peterboat said:

and cheaper so would save building sites money 

Which is one reason LPG fork-lift trucks have been used in industry for decades.

[TheBiscuits]

16 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

Which is one reason LPG fork-lift trucks have been used in industry for decades.

I'm surprised nobody has ever thought to make an electric version ... 

 

No fumes, plenty ballast weight in the batteries, handy access to charge points.  It sounds far easier than all that messing about with gas bottles or diesel tanks.

 

[Flyboy]

23 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

I'm surprised nobody has ever thought to make an electric version ... 

 

No fumes, plenty ballast weight in the batteries, handy access to charge points.  It sounds far easier than all that messing about with gas bottles or diesel tanks.

 

We had Lancing Bagnall electric fork lifts where I worked in the 60's. The batteries were large removable banks to swap over.

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, TheBiscuits said:

I'm surprised nobody has ever thought to make an electric version ... 

 

No fumes, plenty ballast weight in the batteries, handy access to charge points.  It sounds far easier than all that messing about with gas bottles or diesel tanks.

 

 

I had a mate ask me if "Clift" batteries were any good?

 

I said I'd never heard of them.

 

My mate said there was a boat at his mooring that had four of them fitted and the owner said they were brilliant.

 

Then the penny dropped! ?

[Tim Lewis]

On 26/02/2020 at 09:30, ditchcrawler said:

And as for building roads and HS2

Err, won't the increase in cost due to the rise in duty go straight back to the government?

 

[ditchcrawler]

5 hours ago, peterboat said:

 

I think the virus is trying to solve the overpopulation problem 

And the CO2 with a lot less flights

52 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

We had Lancing Bagnall electric fork lifts where I worked in the 60's. The batteries were large removable banks to swap over.

And took 12 hours to recharge from a big mains charger

[WotEver]

9 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

And took 12 hours to recharge from a big mains charger

Yup. I drove one of those around as part of my after-school job in the late 60’s. It’d never be allowed today. 

[ditchcrawler]

11 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Yup. I drove one of those around as part of my after-school job in the late 60’s. It’d never be allowed today. 

We had a fleet of them at Birds Eye with 3 dedicated charging shops with rows of batteries on charge. We also had gas powered ones to go into the food areas, electric in the cold stores as well as food areas

[WotEver]

4 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

electric in the cold stores

Did they slow down as soon as you entered the cold area?

[ditchcrawler]

1 minute ago, WotEver said:

Did they slow down as soon as you entered the cold area?

Did the hell, they were bloody deadly but the battery life was shorter

[TheBiscuits]

3 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Did they slow down as soon as you entered the cold area?

That's not how most superconductors work!

[ditchcrawler]

11 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

That's not how most superconductors work!

Its not how the drivers worked

[Machpoint005]

Visitor: "How many people work in your factory?

 

Manager: "About half of them".

[WotEver]

46 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

That's not how most superconductors work!

But it is how batteries work...