Another Red Diesel Threat

[Tim Lewis]

1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

We had a fleet of them at Birds Eye with 3 dedicated charging shops with rows of batteries on charge. We also had gas powered ones to go into the food areas, electric in the cold stores as well as food areas

I visited the BMW engine factory in Birmingham  a few years ago where they use robot electric trolleys to move materials around which were programmed too head back to the charging area when their batteries were low and plug themselves in. This was fine until one evening the floor was painted, the next morning the floor was criss crossed with wheel markings ?

[ditchcrawler]

15 minutes ago, Tim Lewis said:

I visited the BMW engine factory in Birmingham  a few years ago where they use robot electric trolleys to move materials around which were programmed too head back to the charging area when their batteries were low and plug themselves in. This was fine until one evening the floor was painted, the next morning the floor was criss crossed with wheel markings ?

We use to try to  train the drivers to do it, but you often saw one being towed back

[Richard10002]

4 hours ago, Tim Lewis said:

I visited the BMW engine factory in Birmingham  a few years ago where they use robot electric trolleys to move materials around which were programmed too head back to the charging area when their batteries were low and plug themselves in. This was fine until one evening the floor was painted, the next morning the floor was criss crossed with wheel markings ?

Sounds a bit like robot lawn mowers or vacuum cleaners, in a house with a dog.

[LadyG]

23 hours ago, Tim Lewis said:

Construction plant diesel engines have improved massively in recent years also as others have said any increase in costs will be passed directly to clients.

If you have ever seen these massive tractors up close you would realise a diesel engine is the only technology available today.  When shove comes to push there are many efficiency improvements to be made along the supply chain, but chancellors just add more and more taxation.

I can see light haulage vans moving over to electric, but not the real heavy stuff.

Farmers come under fire, but they can't turn the clock back to 1950. 

 

If, for financial reasons, I have to trim my diesel consumption for travel,  so be it, that is going to be annoying, and will affect my lifestyle disproportionally. Meanwhile I can't replace my heating with wind or solar, I need to genenerate electricity for heating, lighting and communication, I am not able to generate income [having worked full and part time from age 12 to 68, I've done enough].

In the big scheme of things  I am in a minority, I don't need to fly, I don't need to drive very often, but most people seem to use ICE, they don't walk to work as they did in 1950, 

Efficiency and innovation is the only way forward, fiddling about with fuel taxes is just a nonsense. Spending outrageous amounts of money on transport links to and from London is adding fuel to the fire.

Edited March 7, 2020 by LadyG

[Dyertribe]

On 26/02/2020 at 12:42, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

My tea comes from Tesco, about 5 miles away.

 

 

Mine came from Fortnum & Masons acshully

[Momac]

33 minutes ago, LadyG said:

If you have ever seen these massive tractors up close you would realise a diesel engine is the only technology available today.  When shove comes to push thare are many efficiency improvements to be made. I can see light haulage vans moving ovet to electric, but not the real heavy stuff.

 

[LadyG]

 

[Mike Todd]

1 hour ago, LadyG said:

If you have ever seen these massive tractors up close you would realise a diesel engine is the only technology available today.  When shove comes to push thare are many efficiency improvements to be made along the supply chain.

I can see light haulage vans moving over to electric, but not the real heavy stuff.

Farmers come under fire, but they can't turn the clock back to 1950. 

 

If, for financial reasons, I have to trim my diesel consumption for travel,  so be it, that is going to be annoying, and will affect my lifestyle disproportionally. Meanwhile I can't replace my heating with wind or solar, I need to genenerate electricity for heating, lighting and communication, I am not able to generate income [having worked full and part time from age 12 to 68, I've done enough].

In the big scheme of things  I am in a minority, I don't need to fly, I don't need to drive very often, but most people seem to use ICE, they don't walk to work as they did in 1950, 

Efficiency and innovation is the only way forward, fiddling about with fuel taxes is just a nonsense. Spending outrageous amounts of money on transport links to and from London is adding fuel to the fire.

By 1950's I guess you mean the age in which most agricultural field power came from horses. (There was an awful lot of them!) I just wonder about the comparative gas emissions - given that some folk seem to be wanting to eliminate sheep and cows on this basis.

 

Just goes to show that complex and large scale systems have a tendency to respond to big change in unpredictable ways. (like viruses do)

[LadyG]

28 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

By 1950's I guess you mean the age in which most agricultural field power came from horses. (There was an awful lot of them!) I just wonder about the comparative gas emissions - given that some folk seem to be wanting to eliminate sheep and cows on this basis.

 

Just goes to show that complex and large scale systems have a tendency to respond to big change in unpredictable ways. (like viruses do)

I was four years old in 1950, spent summer holidays on a dairy farm, there were horses, but the little grey Fergie was more efficient for jobs like weeding, and potato harvesting, albeit using implements designed to be horse drawn. Right up to 1963 I worked on some old fashioned farms where we used horses to draw carts as they did not need a dedicated driver and were quite happy to walk steadily while we filled the cart.  I don't think horses produce much methane,  they have only one stomach, while cows have four.

The Great War decimated the horse population, removing breeding stock of the handy carthorse size. They went out to foreign fields, and like so many men, they never came back.

Edited March 7, 2020 by LadyG

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, MartynG said:

 

 

 

That's not a tractor, THIS is a tractor (as spoken by Crocodile Dundee)

(We had one of these ploughing the field adjacent to us a couple of days ago - pulling a 12 furrow plough)

 

 

 

[LadyG]

1 hour ago, MartynG said:

 

Big grain combine harvesters and the tractors pulling trailers are working 24/7 in the grain fields of North America, I don't think they can stop for re-charging, bowsers are used for topping up, in the field.

Edited March 7, 2020 by LadyG

[LadyG]

On 26/02/2020 at 09:29, Alan de Enfield said:

That'll put the price of a house / factory up.

The construction industry uses more red diesel than Agriculture (I read somewhere) in everything from excavators to telehandlers, to generators to water pumps.

They are not going to look favourably if that comes to pass.

There will be a run on red diesel, I suppose I could get some in, its 89p today, domestic rates. Will it be forecourt prices next time I need a fill at a boatyard, don't they pay tax at point of delivery?

[Alan de Enfield]

11 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Big grain harvesters and tractors are working 24/7 in the grain fields of Lincolnshire, I don't think they can stop for re-charging, bowsers are used for topping up, in the field.

Localised and corrected for you.

 

Harvest time will involve 14-16-18 hours continuous work. It doesn't stop until the job is done, or it starts to rain.

[Momac]

20 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

That's not a tractor, THIS is a tractor (as spoken by Crocodile Dundee)

(We had one of these ploughing the field adjacent to us a couple of days ago - pulling a 12 furrow plough)

 

 

 

It that electric powered?

.

[LadyG]

11 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Localised and corrected for you.

 

Harvest time will involve 14-16-18 hours continuous work. It doesn't stop until the job is done, or it starts to rain.

I am trying to "think globally" while "acting locally", tootling about on my self-powered bicycle.

 ?

The grain harvesting in Lincolnshire is local, harvesting grain takes a few weeks, in America the harvest starts in the deep south and moves relentlessly north, the same machines, and contractors.

Edited March 7, 2020 by LadyG

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, MartynG said:

It that electric powered?

.

 

Nope - no room for the batteries its all taken up with Engine and huge Hydraulics

 

I wonder how many batteries it would require to provide 470hp / 346Kw for (say) 20 hours, and how long it would take to recharge them and to get it back in the next field ?

 

I'm sure someone will take on the challenge ?

 

Rated PTO power (hp SAE) at rated PTO speed (1895 rpm)	329 hp (245 kW)
Rated Engine power PS (hp ISO) at 2100 engine rpm (97/68EC)	470 hp (346 kW)

[ditchcrawler]

29 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

That's not a tractor, THIS is a tractor (as spoken by Crocodile Dundee)

(We had one of these ploughing the field adjacent to us a couple of days ago - pulling a 12 furrow plough)

 

 

 

But a grey Fergy would have pulled a single furrow plough at probably a quarter of the speed that was traveling so would have taken 48 times as long to plough the same area

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:

But a grey Fergy would have pulled a single furrow plough at probably a quarter of the speed that was traveling so would have taken 48 times as long to plough the same area

 

I have had several 'Little Grey Fergies' and even with a single furrow plough they would not plough into clay land - they were only 20Hp and didn't have the 'oompf'

 

Hay making when we lived in Wales (that was the field levelled after removing the 100,000 tonnes of coal)

[ditchcrawler]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I have had several 'Little Grey Fergies' and even with a single furrow plough they would not plough into clay land - they were only 20Hp and didn't have the 'oompf'

 

Hay making when we lived in Wales (that was the field levelled after removing the 100,000 tonnes of coal)

Does that cutter have a hard wood driving arm?

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Does that cutter have a hard wood driving arm?

It was driven by PTO, connected to a reciprocating arm.

[LadyG]

22 hours ago, peterboat said:

Lower than diesel 

Errrr , lpg must be a fossil fuel, puting it in 35kg cylinders, moving it around on lorries,  can't be "more efficient / less polluting"

[MtB]

8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I wonder how many batteries it would require to provide 470hp / 346Kw for (say) 20 hours, and how long it would take to recharge them and to get it back in the next field ?

 

I'm sure someone will take on the challenge ?

 

Not a difficult calc.

 

346kW x 20 hours = 6,920 kWh.

 

To replace this charge plugged into the fsrmer's 13A extension lead from the farmhouse would take 6,920kWh/3kW = 2,306 2/3 hours.

 

96 days. 

 

Assuming 100% charger efficiency, which is unlikely. 

 

 

[Momac]

The John Deere video does demonstrate electric  tractors are possible and under development  . Their video is dated 2017.

The challenge  of refuelling is simply a matter of design development.

Perhaps swap the battery pack  rather than standing the whole machine at a recharging point ? 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Not a difficult calc.

 

346kW x 20 hours = 6,920 kWh.

 

To replace this charge plugged into the fsrmer's 13A extension lead from the farmhouse would take 6,920kWh/3kW = 2,306 2/3 hours.

 

96 days. 

 

Assuming 100% charger efficiency, which is unlikely. 

 

 

Thankyou - I was thinking more about the size/number of batteries  required.

[MtB]

Interestingly, at say 15p per kWh, the electricity bill to recharge would be £1,038.00.

 

How much would the tank of white diesel cost?