Another Red Diesel Threat

[Flyboy]

41 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

You are right about production costs but this applies to everything we do, but a short term coppice feeding a small scale biomass boiler is about as good as it gets.

Similarly biodigester using genuine waste to produce methane burned in a local  CHP.

It's the insanity of places like drax that import feedstock from hundreds of miles away, the problem is this is where the big money is plus the opportunities for greenwash 

I never mentioned anything about production costs. What I was saying was that CO2 was produced in its production and transportation so can't be carbon neutral as is claimed.

[Machpoint005]

1 minute ago, Flyboy said:

What I was saying was that CO2 was produced in its production and transportation so can't be carbon neutral as is claimed.

 

It can be effectively carbon neutral, in that 99% (or some other very high proportion) of the carbon comes out of the carbon cycle and then goes straight back into it again.

[ditchcrawler]

We have a Bio Gas plant in the next village, I hate to think how much diesel is burnt ploughing, drilling, harvesting the crops then transporting them from farm to plant by tractor and trailer never mind taking land out of food production and ploughing up marsh land 

Edited March 2, 2020 by ditchcrawler

[tree monkey]

9 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

I never mentioned anything about production costs. What I was saying was that CO2 was produced in its production and transportation so can't be carbon neutral as is claimed.

Sorry, by production costs I was referring to co2, not actually cash costs

[Flyboy]

10 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

It can be effectively carbon neutral, in that 99% (or some other very high proportion) of the carbon comes out of the carbon cycle and then goes straight back into it again.

Really, and where's all the carbon going from the transportation. Stobarts transport a hell of a lot of the biomass production around the country so are producing a lot of CO2 from their trucks & trains.

Edited March 2, 2020 by Flyboy

[tree monkey]

Just now, ditchcrawler said:

We have a Bio Gas plant in the next village, I hate to think how much diesel is burnt ploughing, drilling, harvesting the crops then transporting them from farm to plant by tractor and trailer never mind taking land out of food production

But everything we do has a cost in co2 or other pollution, its balancing these against the benefits that's important, oil/gas extraction, mining for uranium it all has costs

Just now, Flyboy said:

Really, and where's all the carbon going from the transportation. Stobarts transport a hell of a lot of the biomass production around the country so are producing a lot of CO2 in their trucks & trains.

You miss my point completely, LOCAL small scale production makes biomass viable, Drax is insane for the reasons you suggest 

[The Welsh Cruiser]

On 01/03/2020 at 10:43, Machpoint005 said:

 

 

People tend to forget that the wind can blow 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year.

 

I think people know this, they haven't forgotten. Rather than 'can' I'd suggest 'could' would be more accurate. The reality though, is that it doesn't.

[Machpoint005]

29 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

We have a Bio Gas plant in the next village, I hate to think how much diesel is burnt ploughing, drilling, harvesting the crops then transporting them from farm to plant by tractor and trailer never mind taking land out of food production and ploughing up marsh land 

 

Are they growing the feedstock specifically, or are they using vegetable matter that would otherwise be ploughed back into the field (eg rape straw, which has a very high calorific value)?

 

Or is it perhaps an anaerobic digester, which consumes animal waste which would otherwise have to be transported off site for disposal, or spread over the fields using a diesel tractor?

 

It is important to consider the whole picture! No agricultural operation requires the use of a diesel engine anything like 24/7, whereas a biogas-fuelled generator runs all the time. Even if your scenario is correct (which I doubt) there is still a huge benefit.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

32 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

Are they growing the feedstock specifically, or are they using vegetable matter that would otherwise be ploughed back into the field (eg rape straw, which has a very high calorific value)?

Our local estate is growing crops specifically for the gasifier.

 

Primarily maize (corn on the cob), it is harvested whilst still green (stalks, leaves and 'cobs' complete cleared down to ground level)

It is macerated into very fine 'bits' by the harvester and loaded into the trailers.

It is taken into the storage yard where it is dumped into huge 'clamps', higher than a telegraph pole and 100s of metres square footprint, It is then covered over with tyre covered tarpaulins and left to ferment.

At some time during fermentation the clamp is opened and it goes into the big gasifier plant.

 

During harvest time there is a continuous 'staggered' convoy of about a dozen tractors and trailers running from field to storage yard. They run night and day.

 

 

Much of the Wheat & Barley straw grown locally is baled and used to power the local power station - they had an enormous fire a couple of years ago when the local 'yoof' decided to set fire to the 24,000 straw bales in the storage heap. Approximately 8000 tonnes (12,000 bales) was destroyed.

 

The 24,000 straw bales were being stored for use at a nearby straw-fired power plant.

Fire engines remain at the scene and a section of the A15 is expected to remain closed until Monday evening.

The fire started in a field between Quarrington and Silk Willoughby at 18:00 BST on Sunday.

Two of the boys will be questioned about the fire "in due course" while the third has been questioned and released on bail, Lincolnshire Police said.

Lincolnshire Fire and Rescue advised people living nearby to keep their doors and windows closed to avoid smoke getting inside their homes.

BBC reporter Leigh Milner, who was at the scene on Monday morning, said: "A huge orange glow can be seen for miles around - a grey band of smoke is spreading across the sky and the fire is still burning furiously."

 

 

Edited March 2, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[Machpoint005]

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

During harvest time there is a continuous 'staggered' convoy of about a dozen tractors and trailers running from field to storage yard. They run night and day.

 

I doubt there are as many tractor/trailers as that, but nevertheless, the energy harvested must be a lot more (orders of magnitude?) than the energy expended in harvesting it, otherwise why would they bother at all?

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

I doubt there are as many tractor/trailers as that, but nevertheless, the energy harvested must be a lot more (orders of magnitude?) than the energy expended in harvesting it, otherwise why would they bother at all?

There are - when you drive down the road you can see at least half a dozen going each way (loaded / unloaded) and there will be tractors & trailers in the field being loaded as well as those 'on the road'.

 

The Estate is 'huge' and some of the fields are 10 -12 -15 miles away from the gasifier plant so taking half an hour each way, and only a matter of minutes to fill each trailer.

 

The Estate is very diverse having recently been granted Planning permission for 250 acres (50,000+) solar panels, and just used some of the land we sold them to build a £3 million reservoir for crop irrigation.

 

A dozen tractors is probably way less than half of those on the estate.

Edited March 2, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

Are they growing the feedstock specifically, or are they using vegetable matter that would otherwise be ploughed back into the field (eg rape straw, which has a very high calorific value)?

 

 

Grown specifically

[ditchcrawler]

39 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

I doubt there are as many tractor/trailers as that, but nevertheless, the energy harvested must be a lot more (orders of magnitude?) than the energy expended in harvesting it, otherwise why would they bother at all?

Money. Also they have to only bring it X number of miles to the digester, so they harvest in on village and take it to storage in the next village, that way its in range to go to the digester and yes there is a convoy some coming almost from Norwich to Beccles, full one way and empty the other

[Machpoint005]

That is exactly my point. They earn money by producing electricity, and that's a lot more in GBP than the diesel they consume in order to do it.

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

13 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

That is exactly my point. They earn money by producing electricity, and that's a lot more in GBP than the diesel they consume in order to do it.

 

 

Maybe that should be "they get paid more than it costs them" it doesn't make it cost effective, maybe the subsidies do

[Machpoint005]

5 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Maybe that should be "they get paid more than it costs them" it doesn't make it cost effective, maybe the subsidies do

 

Have you any actual evidence that the subsidies account for the difference between profit and loss?

 

 

(Bearing in mind that for the purposes of this discussion we are disregarding Drax and its ilk).

[ditchcrawler]

6 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

Have you any actual evidence that the subsidies account for the difference between profit and loss?

 

 

(Bearing in mind that for the purposes of this discussion we are disregarding Drax and its ilk).

Of course I cant

 

[cuthound]

3 hours ago, tree monkey said:

But everything we do has a cost in co2 or other pollution, its balancing these against the benefits that's important,

 

Exactly, humans and animals breath out CO2, but we dont want to stop them producing CO2 do we?

[Machpoint005]

1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

Of course I cant

 

 

In which case, how can you argue (or suggest) that it's the subsidies that make the businesses in question cost-effective?

 

Biomass generation may not be completely carbon-neutral but it's a lot better than burning fossil fuels for the same purpose. That is what matters, and is why incentives are indeed offered. 

 

Having said that, burning natural gas in a cogen plant is a whole lot better than burning coal. This isn't a black-and-white issue, it's umpteen nuanced shades of grey.

 

35 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Exactly, humans and animals breath out CO2, but we dont want to stop them producing CO2 do we?

 

I could think of several people I would rather ceased forthwith their consumption of atmospheric oxygen.

[furnessvale]

The point about biomass is that the emitted CO2 is, in geological terms, quickly recaptured.  Oil and gas come from the carboniferous age and those pretty pictures of what the earth was like then, have convinced me that is not a good thing to release all THAT carbon..

Edited March 2, 2020 by furnessvale

[Momac]

7 hours ago, Jess-- said:

It's just a shame that most of the turbines in the shallow puddle (assuming you mean the turbines off the coast of skegness) aren't connected to the grid yet, the cable to connect them is being laid a couple of miles down the road from me.

No doubt there is ongoing development . I believe quite  a lot  of them have been functional and connected  quite long time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincs_Wind_Farm

 

I think the sea is the best place for turbines . 

.

Edited March 2, 2020 by MartynG
,

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, MartynG said:

No doubt there is ongoing development . I believe quite  a lot  of them have been functional and connected  quite long time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincs_Wind_Farm

 

I think the sea is the best place for turbines . 

.

Normally I would agree with you, but I think that a system of turbines near motorways would be good to power electric vehicles. We have them dotted around as it is, near factories to power them up rather than the national grid 

[WotEver]

6 hours ago, tree monkey said:

Drax is insane

But he did build a very nice space station...

... invisible to radar too. 

[Machpoint005]

12 hours ago, WotEver said:

But he did build a very nice space station...

 

 

Not in the book he didn't!

[Victor Vectis]

20 hours ago, tree monkey said:

It's the insanity of places like drax that import feedstock from hundreds of miles away, the problem is this is where the big money is plus the opportunities for greenwash 

And to add insult to injury the trains carrying the biomass go past the site of Kellingley Colliery.