Probably a stupid question

[MtB]

16 hours ago, OldGoat said:

You must be joking.....

 

I have to ask "why?"

 

I'd have thought them imminently suitable for a boat. 

 

 

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

How does the heat output compare with those cast ones to a modern double convector of the same length and height?

[Boater Sam]

1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

How does the heat output compare with those cast ones to a modern double convector of the same length and height?

Poorly but the air flow is better so on par they work well. Take more space though.

For gravity circuits plastic pipe laid on a wooden batten to stop it sagging, then box in with trunking or wood if you want to hide it. With care you can arrange space for the expansion, say in a wardrobe or cupboard and lots of clips to support.

My all copper and soldered system has survived 29 years so far but has not ever been allowed to freeze.

[BWM]

3 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I have to ask "why?"

 

I'd have thought them imminently suitable for a boat. 

 

 

 

 

Mine work faultlessly, i suspect their free flowing nature is a benefit to my gravity system. They look a lot better than the modern offerings too, and give more scope for drying the odd items of clothing, etc. 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

On 22/12/2019 at 16:12, Detling said:

plastic pipe and push fit or compression joints with inserts are less likely to be damaged if it does freeze, copper tends to split and solder joints to pop.

The system is going to need a corrosion inhibitor in it to slow corrosion down. You can get inhibitors with antifreeze in too, so a copper piped heating loop with compression fittings will be fine and not have the sagging problem that plastic gets. You will want antifreeze to protect the heater anyway to save having to drain it if leaving the boat in cold weather.

To add to the comment made about avoiding soldering copper pipe joints. There is a lot of vibration from the boat engine that can fatigue the solder, leading to leaks. Compression joints are much more reliable. Not a problem in houses 'cause they don't often have engines!

https://www.screwfix.com/p/flomasta-0623-concentrated-central-heating-inhibited-antifreeze-5ltr/4409r?_requestid=19249

Jen

 

Edited December 26, 2019 by Jen-in-Wellies

[Boater Sam]

1 hour ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

The system is going to need a corrosion inhibitor in it to slow corrosion down. You can get inhibitors with antifreeze in too, so a copper piped heating loop with compression fittings will be fine and not have the sagging problem that plastic gets. You will want antifreeze to protect the heater anyway to save having to drain it if leaving the boat in cold weather.

To add to the comment made about avoiding soldering copper pipe joints. There is a lot of vibration from the boat engine that can fatigue the solder, leading to leaks. Compression joints are much more reliable. Not a problem in houses 'cause they don't often have engines!

https://www.screwfix.com/p/flomasta-0623-concentrated-central-heating-inhibited-antifreeze-5ltr/4409r?_requestid=19249

Jen

 

On my boat soldered joints have resisted everything for 30 years, I have never seen proof of vibration fatiguing solder. The copper pipe is more likely to work harden and crack than a fine capillary layer of solder amalgamated on both sides to the copper I would have thought. Certainly on vehicles that have had bodged plumbing fitted it is the pipe that vibrates and fails.

Just my experience but I accept that someone more knowledgeable than I decreed that all gas pipes must not be soldered on boats wheather powered or not which seems strange. And why does it not apply to brazed fittings?

 

In years past when copper was  scarce we did lots of jobs with stainless steel pipe and basically superglued fittings, did not have much problem and I know many that are still in service and sound to this day.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

17 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

On my boat soldered joints have resisted everything for 30 years, I have never seen proof of vibration fatiguing solder.

A lot of my job for a number of years was to do with fatigue life of soldered joints in electronics. I can still bore for England on the subject if required! I am therefore a bit paranoid about solder in low cycle fatigue situations, like boats. The requirement for gas joints to not be soldered on boats will be based on this.

 

Jen

[David Mack]

Screwfix do push fit copper fittings.

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

A lot of my job for a number of years was to do with fatigue life of soldered joints in electronics. I can still bore for England on the subject if required!

 

Oh really that's interesting!!

 

On the Potterton Netaheat boiler the PCB develops 'dry joints' on the gas valve lead terminal pins where soldered into the PCB after 10 to 20 years. They always look to me like fatigue fractures, being a black ring in the solder around the loose pin which was definitely not there when the PCB was new. I usually just re-solder them but always wonder how they happen. 

 

Interesting to hear from you that fatigue fracturing of soldered joints in electronics really is a thing.  I suspect the fatigue in a boiler PCB originates in heat stress as the temp of the PCB cycles up and down with the boiler turning on and off. Is heat-cycling fatigue a thing too? 

 

 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Oh really that's interesting!!

 

On the Potterton Netaheat boiler the PCB develops 'dry joints' on the gas valve lead terminal pins where soldered into the PCB after 10 to 20 years. They always look to me like fatigue fractures, being a black ring in the solder around the loose pin which was definitely not there when the PCB was new. I usually just re-solder them but always wonder how they happen. 

 

Interesting to hear from you that fatigue fracturing of soldered joints in electronics really is a thing.  I suspect the fatigue in a boiler PCB originates in heat stress as the temp of the PCB cycles up and down with the boiler turning on and off. Is heat-cycling fatigue a thing too? 

 

 

Yes, that sounds like classic fatigue cracking  around a through hole pin. Heat cycling fatigue in solder is definitely a thing and ten years or so is around the right time. The different expansion rates of the circuit board and components put cyclic stresses on the solder as it heats and cools. The solder creeps to remove the stress and over time cracks in the solder develop. Resoldering them makes them good for another ten years!

 

Jen

[MtB]

1 minute ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Yes, that sounds like classic fatigue cracking  around a through hole pin. Heat cycling fatigue in solder is definitely a thing and ten years or so is around the right time. The different expansion rates of the circuit board and components put cyclic stresses on the solder as it heats and cools. The solder creeps to remove the stress and over time cracks in the solder develop. Resoldering them makes them good for another ten years!

 

Jen

 

Yay! Thanks! 

 

Always wondered if there was an obscure reason not to re-solder, but you say no. Thanks!

 

What usually happens is ten days after I re-soldered the pins, something else fails on the PCB stopping it working.... relay failure, or flame detection packs up, or summink. So I only ever do it on the express agreement that their PCB after my repair, is not guaranteed....

 

 

[peterboat]

On 22/12/2019 at 15:59, OldGoat said:

You must be joking.....

I have them on my boat I have to get rid off 5.5kw of heat for the whispergen to work well, also they are a good looking radiator better than panel rads

[Jen-in-Wellies]

2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Yay! Thanks! 

 

Always wondered if there was an obscure reason not to re-solder, but you say no. Thanks!

 

What usually happens is ten days after I re-soldered the pins, something else fails on the PCB stopping it working.... relay failure, or flame detection packs up, or summink. So I only ever do it on the express agreement that their PCB after my repair, is not guaranteed....

 

 

If the PCB was on the International Space Station, part of a dialysis machine, or otherwise super critical, I'd qualify the answer with a few caveats, but generally it is fine.

[bizzard]

Soft soldered gas joints on boats are definitally a no no. If the boat catches fire and the solder melts, well, BOOM!!   Silver solders which come in 3 or 4 heat melt ranges which are pretty high melting point, not very far below brazing and should be fine. Brazing would be very good which would be getting blood red hot before it begins to melt, the copper pipe would probably melt before the brazing.

[peterboat]

10 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Yes, that sounds like classic fatigue cracking  around a through hole pin. Heat cycling fatigue in solder is definitely a thing and ten years or so is around the right time. The different expansion rates of the circuit board and components put cyclic stresses on the solder as it heats and cools. The solder creeps to remove the stress and over time cracks in the solder develop. Resoldering them makes them good for another ten years!

 

Jen

We get the same issue on car ecu's its a nightmare, pointless fitting secondhand ones as they have the same issue, a very expensive problem and from my point of view is built in obsolescence. The panel builder opposite have repair a few for us  with good results, but cant warranty the work.

[bizzard]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Oh really that's interesting!!

 

On the Potterton Netaheat boiler the PCB develops 'dry joints' on the gas valve lead terminal pins where soldered into the PCB after 10 to 20 years. They always look to me like fatigue fractures, being a black ring in the solder around the loose pin which was definitely not there when the PCB was new. I usually just re-solder them but always wonder how they happen. 

 

Interesting to hear from you that fatigue fracturing of soldered joints in electronics really is a thing.  I suspect the fatigue in a boiler PCB originates in heat stress as the temp of the PCB cycles up and down with the boiler turning on and off. Is heat-cycling fatigue a thing too? 

 

 

Sounds like dirtily made joints to me. Mating parts must be absolutely clean, scraped to bright copper, brass whatever it is, untouched by the human hand which will deposit oils on the job, all of this wil cause dodgy or dry joints. This applies to all types of soldering, hard and soft. Brazing is not quite so fussy the sheer heat applied wil burn off most dirt. But I would still treat the process the same as soldering. I keep mentioning on this forum about scraping wire conductors to bright copper before soldering to connecting terminals and get no reply, Not doing it is very likely the main reason why so many folk have failures and prefer crimping, which also needs the copper wire ends to be scraped to bright copper and untouched by the hands, don't just rely on the flux only to do this when soldering or brazing.

  Forgot to mention. All types of soldered joints soft and hard need a scrub with soapy water afterwards to clear away and neutralize excess flux, important.

Edited December 26, 2019 by bizzard

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, bizzard said:

Sounds like dirtily made joints to me. Mating parts must be absolutely clean, scraped to bright copper, brass whatever it is, untouched by the human hand which will deposit oils on the job, all of this wil cause dodgy or dry joints.

The electronics assembly division of a company I worked for 'laid off' some of the female assembly workers for a week each month due to all sots of secretions on the female skin at 'that time of the month'.

[MtB]

8 minutes ago, bizzard said:

Sounds like dirtily made joints to me.

 

If it were dirtily made joints, what would explain:

 

1) The fracture is a black ring in the solder around the ring, and both the pin and the copper track remain correctly wetted with solder?

2) The fracture ring was not present on any of the new boards I fitted 10-15 years ago, the pins being securely soldered into the PCBs, yet those customers are beginning to call me back and the fracture rings are now present and easily visible, and the pins are loose? 

 

 

 

[peterboat]

2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

If it were dirtily made joints, what would explain:

 

1) The fracture is a black ring in the solder around the ring, and both the pin and the copper track remain correctly wetted with solder?

2) The fracture ring was not present on any of the new boards I fitted 10-15 years ago, the pins being securely soldered into the PCBs, yet those customers are beginning to call me back and the fracture rings are now present and easily visible, and the pins are loose? 

 

 

 

I have seen exactly the same in ECU's it has to be vibration and heat in cars

[bizzard]

4 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

If it were dirtily made joints, what would explain:

 

1) The fracture is a black ring in the solder around the ring, and both the pin and the copper track remain correctly wetted with solder?

2) The fracture ring was not present on any of the new boards I fitted 10-15 years ago, the pins being securely soldered into the PCBs, yet those customers are beginning to call me back and the fracture rings are now present and easily visible, and the pins are loose? 

 

 

 

Are the pins steel ? different expansion and retraction rates perhaps if they're subject to fluctuating warmth or heat. Them switching on and off by a thermostat possibly. 

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, bizzard said:

Are the pins steel ? different expansion and retraction rates perhaps if they're subject to fluctuating warmth or heat.

 

I don't know but they are definitely not made of tin and lead alloy, so your comment stands whether they are copper pins or steel pins.

 

 

[bizzard]

6 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I don't know but they are definitely not made of tin and lead alloy, so your comment stands whether they are copper pins or steel pins.

 

 

Probably silver steel or could be nickel iron but I doubt it.

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

If it were dirtily made joints, what would explain:

 

1) The fracture is a black ring in the solder around the ring, and both the pin and the copper track remain correctly wetted with solder?

2) The fracture ring was not present on any of the new boards I fitted 10-15 years ago, the pins being securely soldered into the PCBs, yet those customers are beginning to call me back and the fracture rings are now present and easily visible, and the pins are loose? 

 

 

 

 

I agree. Soldered joints on PCB's are not made by hand these days, so no oily secretions possible, as the PCB is dipped into a tank of molten solder to make the joints.

[WotEver]

10 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Yes, that sounds like classic fatigue cracking  around a through hole pin. Heat cycling fatigue in solder is definitely a thing and ten years or so is around the right time. The different expansion rates of the circuit board and components put cyclic stresses on the solder as it heats and cools. The solder creeps to remove the stress and over time cracks in the solder develop. Resoldering them makes them good for another ten years!

 

Jen

Some years ago I made a few bob repairing domestic electronic items - generally hi-fi (“it’s a problem with the speaker, mate”. “Oh, okay, thanks.”) and TVs. 90% of the TV problems were a dry joint on a pcb connector. Only last year a mate asked me to look at his 50” TV that had developed vertical lines on the LCD screen. Running my soldering iron over the ribbon connector pins fixed it in about 10 minutes. Fatigue fractures on soldered joints are a well known phenomenon as Jen states. 

[peterboat]

2 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Some years ago I made a few bob repairing domestic electronic items - generally hi-fi (“it’s a problem with the speaker, mate”. “Oh, okay, thanks.”) and TVs. 90% of the TV problems were a dry joint on a pcb connector. Only last year a mate asked me to look at his 50” TV that had developed vertical lines on the LCD screen. Running my soldering iron over the ribbon connector pins fixed it in about 10 minutes. Fatigue fractures on soldered joints are a well known phenomenon as Jen states. 

Built in obsolescence is my view, you don't want stuff to last forever do they?