3kw generator

[Tony Custard]

35 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

Ah, so you wouldn't expect much foot fall?

 

Okay, I did say I was new. So, towpath it is. Although, it is thin and overrun with grass and weeds, so toe suits more than foot. 

[blackrose]

On 27/12/2019 at 21:38, Tony Custard said:

I bought a Chinese one from EBay. 2.6kw frame type. It's the same as the Clarke type. 

 

 

Horrible things that make one's ears bleed. I couldn't live with one of those open frame generators. 

 

It's always struck me as odd that many people will spend many thousands of £££s on their boat engines, inverters, solar panels, etc, yet baulk when it comes to spending money on a decent quality generator.

[Tony Custard]

6 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

Horrible things that make one's ears bleed. I couldn't live with one of those open frame generators. 

 

It's always struck me as odd that many people will spend many thousands of £££s on their boat engines, inverters, solar panels, etc, yet baulk when it comes to spending money on a decent quality generator.

Maybe you've just answered your own question, it's possibly because they have just spent thousands on their boats and engines?

 

I also find that quality is linked to user reviews and consensus over cost. Because it was inexpensive doesn't make it poor quality. It also has a spec of 65db at 7m, so not ear piercing either. 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Tony Custard said:

It also has a spec of 65db at 7m, so not ear piercing either. 

A typical Honda generator is in the "mid 50's" so your generator will be around 10x louder.

It will also be a lot louder when you are stood less than 7 metres away, or it is on the bank at the side of the boat. Noise travels for 'miles' over water so it will be head from a long way away.

 

The Clarke 3KVa generator has a noise level of 96Db, is your Chinese copy really 30x quieter than the Clarke ?

https://www.buildingsuppliesdirect.com/clarke-pg3800-3kva-petrol-generator-8857810?gclid=Cj0KCQiAl5zwBRCTARIsAIrukdN5U1oeZ0bKTuNrB6CBuY66smBj8lcV8BEeP7EbesWR9ZBp_EWTBeoaAhylEALw_wcB

 

 

It is certainly not very considerate to use that type of generator on the cut.

 

 

 

 

The unit of measurement used to gauge the power and intensity of a sound is the decibel (expressed as dB). Basically, the louder something is, the higher its decibel level. To complicate things a bit, the decibel scale is logarithmic. To put it simply, this means that an increase of 10 decibels means the sound is ten times louder. So a noise measurement of 80 dB is ten times louder than a sound measured at 70 dB!

https://hammerheadtools.com/blogs/hammerhead-blog/14736095-it-s-all-noise-what-do-different-decibel-levels-mean

Edited December 29, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[Tony Custard]

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

A typical Honda generator is in the "mid 50's" so your generator will be around 10x louder.

It will also be a lot louder when you are stood less than 7 metres away, or it is on the bank at the side of the boat. Noise travels for 'miles' over water so it will be head from a long way away.

 

The Clarke 3KVa generator has a noise level of 96Db, is your Chinese copy really 30x quieter than the Clarke ?

https://www.buildingsuppliesdirect.com/clarke-pg3800-3kva-petrol-generator-8857810?gclid=Cj0KCQiAl5zwBRCTARIsAIrukdN5U1oeZ0bKTuNrB6CBuY66smBj8lcV8BEeP7EbesWR9ZBp_EWTBeoaAhylEALw_wcB

 

 

It is certainly not very considerate to use that type of generator on the cut.

 

 

 

 

The unit of measurement used to gauge the power and intensity of a sound is the decibel (expressed as dB). Basically, the louder something is, the higher its decibel level. To complicate things a bit, the decibel scale is logarithmic. To put it simply, this means that an increase of 10 decibels means the sound is ten times louder. So a noise measurement of 80 dB is ten times louder than a sound measured at 70 dB!

https://hammerheadtools.com/blogs/hammerhead-blog/14736095-it-s-all-noise-what-do-different-decibel-levels-mean

That's what the spec's say. Can't be absolutely sure as I don't have a db level meter. I doubt it actually is that much quieter than a Clarke. 

Like I said previously, both my direct neighbours have generators; 1 is a small one that runs for quite a few hours a day, the other is a frame based unit, runs for a few hours a day. I personally run mine for about an hour, 2 hours tops. I'm new to boating and had spoken to multiple people on the same part of the canal and nobody seems that bothered about running their generators and engines - especially over Winter. So I considered other people very well before purchasing. 

 

I walk my dog alongside the canal regularly, and the sound doesn't travel that far at all. Well, not far enough to notice over the sound of all the other generators and engines running. 

 

 

 

[Victor Vectis]

On 14/12/2019 at 10:02, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I would argue that point.

 

A typical suitcase 2kw Honda / Kipor generator will be much quieter than the 'diesel lump' in the back of your boat - maybe you are thinking of 'site' / Frame generators.

 

The only downside of a generator is the buying / use / storage of petrol.

Dangerous stuff.

Apart from the noise and smell they cause.

 

Evil things and should be banned.

 

(The poster is fully aware that other opinions are available............

 

 

 

 

                                                                                                              ..........even if they are wrong!)

[WotEver]

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The unit of measurement used to gauge the power and intensity of a sound is the decibel (expressed as dB). Basically, the louder something is, the higher its decibel level.

This is correct. 
 

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

To put it simply, this means that an increase of 10 decibels means the sound is ten times louder.

This however is entirely incorrect.
 

An increase of 10dB is a doubling of the loudness. But that doesn’t mean a doubling of the SPL (sound pressure level); that happens at +6dB. 
 

Decibel measurement is a complex subject, often mis-quoted, and differs whether referring to subjective loudness, SPL, or power. 
 

Here’s a somewhat in-depth article written by someone who knows what he’s talking about. It took me a while to find a reasonably straightforward article that was also correct:

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-levelchange.htm

 

[WotEver]

 

What a lot of articles either don’t know or don’t understand is that our ears are also kind of inversely logarithmic, which is why a doubling of the SPL (+6dB) doesn’t sound to us like a doubling in loudness (+10dB). 

[Alan de Enfield]

2 hours ago, WotEver said:

This however is entirely incorrect.
 

An increase of 10dB is a doubling of the loudness.

I didn't think it sounded correct from what I remembered on the subject, but thought maybe I was remembering incorrectly, which is why I quoted the source.

 

One would have hoped that the tool company could have got their facts 'right'.

 

I still doubt that a Chinese clone frame generator will be anywhere close to 65Db when under load.

[blackrose]

The other thing to bear in mind is that different manufacturers are testing sound power level (or noise) at different engine outputs and unless you're comparing at the same output you're not comparing like for like. I think Honda quote dB levels at 1/4 engine output.

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, blackrose said:

The other thing to bear in mind is that different manufacturers are testing sound power level (or noise) at different engine outputs and unless you're comparing at the same output you're not comparing like for like. I think Honda quote dB levels at 1/4 engine output.

I think that many of the Chinese 'specifications' (for pretty much anything) are taken from their competitors data sheets rather than their own product,

 

"We have copied the product so the data must be the same" 

[WotEver]

17 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I still doubt that a Chinese clone frame generator will be anywhere close to 65Db when under load.

Me too. 

4 minutes ago, blackrose said:

The other thing to bear in mind is that different manufacturers are testing sound power level (or noise) at different engine outputs and unless you're comparing at the same output you're not comparing like for like. I think Honda quote dB levels at 1/4 engine output.

Not only that but the frequency of the noise makes a huge difference to the ‘nuisance’ value of that noise. 

[blackrose]

7 hours ago, Tony Custard said:

Maybe you've just answered your own question, it's possibly because they have just spent thousands on their boats and engines?

 

I also find that quality is linked to user reviews and consensus over cost. Because it was inexpensive doesn't make it poor quality. It also has a spec of 65db at 7m, so not ear piercing either. 

 

 

I'm not sure that most boaters who buy poor quality generators do so because they've spent all their money on other equipment or on their boats? But if that is the case then I guess the generator was an afterthought which is down to bad planning.

 

On the other hand I am sure that a cheap generator does equate to poor quality. User reviews don't mean very much because some will be using open frame generators for their intended purpose (i.e. not on a quiet river or canal bank), and also many of those reviewing cheap generators may never have used a decent one. 

[Sea Dog]

We should also recognise that it's far easier and cheaper to produce a label that says "65dB" than it is to build a generator to that level.

 

[blackrose]

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I think that many of the Chinese 'specifications' (for pretty much anything) are taken from their competitors data sheets rather than their own product,

 

"We have copied the product so the data must be the same" 

 

Not necessarily. I've seen generator dB specs where no measuring distance or engine output is specified, so you've absolutely no way of comparing it with anything else. You could make an assumption, but that's all it will be 

[Tony Custard]

27 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

I'm not sure that most boaters who buy poor quality generators do so because they've spent all their money on other equipment or on their boats? But if that is the case then I guess the generator was an afterthought which is down to bad planning.

 

On the other hand I am sure that a cheap generator does equate to poor quality. User reviews don't mean very much because some will be using open frame generators for their intended purpose (i.e. not on a quiet river or canal bank), and also many of those reviewing cheap generators may never have used a decent one. 

So by that logic, you could safely say that those that review expensive generators have never used a cheaper one? 

 

It was always my plan to get a generator, so no bad planning. In fact it was good planning, as I walked around and asked people, who live on the same stretch of canal, what type did they advise, and I did what the consensus dictated.

 

I had a choice; do I buy a generator that is guaranteed to be quiet at the cost of £1200, or buy a budget one, that will not be as quiet for £160. I chose the later, as like I said before, I only run it for a short time and everyone who surrounds me also run theirs. 

 

As for the user reviews, most are based on the unit on the image (quiet caravan/camper generator) so represent the situation quite well.

 

I'm done defending my decision now. I'm starting to find a lot of arrogance and presumptuous nonsense on my choices. Up to now I've been accused of planning badly, being inconsiderate, and been mocked for getting a boating term wrong - which to be fair was funny. 

Enjoy the rest of the thread. 

 

Edited December 29, 2019 by Tony Custard

[Sea Dog]

The way I look at it is that I've already got a very nearly 2kw generator sat in my engine 'ole. It's much quieter than most stand alone gennies; it uses much safer diesel; at a little over a litre per hour its probably cheaper to run; I already have a big compatible fuel tank to which it's already connected; and its integrated into my electrics. It charges my batteries and allows me to use all the high power 240v kit I carry.  All this and it'll push the boat along too. There is a place for stand alone petrol gennies but, given the noise and fuelling baggage that comes with them, the built in power source most narrowboats already have is worthy of first consideration. Other views are available. 

 

[WotEver]

50 minutes ago, Tony Custard said:

... been mocked for getting a boating term wrong - which to be fair was funny. 

At least you dipped your toe in the water...

 

[MtB]

 

Notwithstanding the OP having a bit of a flounce about criticism of his choice to buy and use a really noisy generator, this raises an interesting technical point about sound levels. His main defence seems to centre on the fact two of his neighbours also have these noisy generators and he plans only to use his when the other two are running. 

 

My perception is that two generators running at once make slightly more noise than just one, even when each is no more noisy than the other when running individually. I suspect THREE running all together will create a significantly more unpleasant noise than one by itself mainly due to the slight differences in the speed of each engine causing a 'beating' or doppler effect, even if they are not jointly louder. 

 

My question is though, do three identical sound sources together result in a higher volume running together, or as the OP seems to think, the exact same level of noise?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

I'm not sure I'd be wanting to lift 41kgs of generator on and off the boat every day.

My 53 kg batteries are bad enough and they only get changed once every few years.

[peterboat]

31 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

The way I look at it is that I've already got a very nearly 2kw generator sat in my engine 'ole. It's much quieter than most stand alone gennies; it uses much safer diesel; at a little over a litre per hour its probably cheaper to run; I already have a big compatible fuel tank to which it's already connected; and its integrated into my electrics. It charges my batteries and allows me to use all the high power 240v kit I carry.  All this and it'll push the boat along too. There is a place for stand alone petrol gennies but, given the noise and fuelling baggage that comes with them, the built in power source most narrowboats already have is worthy of first consideration. Other views are available. 

 

Thats you, plenty have single alternator 1500 BMCs  which wouldnt do the same, me I have no diesel engine and a NZ Whispergen which really is silent, but was only bought because I picked it up ex MOD brand new cheap, Mike the Boilerman has the same, hope he likes it as much as mine

[Sea Dog]

5 hours ago, peterboat said:

Thats you, plenty have single alternator 1500 BMCs  which wouldnt do the same, me I have no diesel engine and a NZ Whispergen which really is silent, but was only bought because I picked it up ex MOD brand new cheap, Mike the Boilerman has the same, hope he likes it as much as mine

This is, of course, true Peter. I did say other views are available, and they may also be just as valid depending upon the circumstances. The whispergen is undoubtedly a particularly good solution too though, as you allude, not affordable to all. I'm just offering that the "as fitted" should not be ignored - as it appears is quite frequently the case.

[doratheexplorer]

20 hours ago, WotEver said:

This is correct. 
 

This however is entirely incorrect.
 

An increase of 10dB is a doubling of the loudness. But that doesn’t mean a doubling of the SPL (sound pressure level); that happens at +6dB. 
 

Decibel measurement is a complex subject, often mis-quoted, and differs whether referring to subjective loudness, SPL, or power. 
 

Here’s a somewhat in-depth article written by someone who knows what he’s talking about. It took me a while to find a reasonably straightforward article that was also correct:

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-levelchange.htm

 

Noise is also highly subjective which different listeners perceiving it in different ways.  The tone is also relevant, with certain noises being far more irritating than others.  For example a randomly barking dog is far more annoying than a continuous sounds which you can 'tune out' of.  Background noise is also a major factor.  So I'll be far less bothered about running my genny near a main road.  I was moored at Windmill End once, where there are visitor moorings on both sides.  On the other side was a boat with a frame generator which the owner would run until abuot 9-10pm, but what made it worse was that he had it on the roof of the boat!  Therefore maximising the amount of noise which was reaching the ears of everyone for miles around.  Clearly s/he didn't give a flying f*** for anyone else, or s/he was so stupid, it didn't occur to them.  When someone is that anti-social, it would take someone braver than me to go and challenge them.

[cuthound]

23 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Notwithstanding the OP having a bit of a flounce about criticism of his choice to buy and use a really noisy generator, this raises an interesting technical point about sound levels. His main defence seems to centre on the fact two of his neighbours also have these noisy generators and he plans only to use his when the other two are running. 

 

My perception is that two generators running at once make slightly more noise than just one, even when each is no more noisy than the other when running individually. I suspect THREE running all together will create a significantly more unpleasant noise than one by itself mainly due to the slight differences in the speed of each engine causing a 'beating' or doppler effect, even if they are not jointly louder. 

 

My question is though, do three identical sound sources together result in a higher volume running together, or as the OP seems to think, the exact same level of noise?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I once fitted two 1000kVA generators into a basement power room. They were two metres apart.

 

I measured the sound pressure level one meter from each generator with a calibrated meter.

 

Result 103dBA with one running and 106dBA with both running.

 

However with ear defenders on, the noise level I perceived didn't sound much louder than with one running.

 

I suspect that if I had installed a third generator the SPL would have been 109dBA with three running.

 

 

[markeymark]

I found a good way of reducing my energy needs. I turned off my compressor fridge and put a steel box with a lid just outside the cabin doors and store my milk and other things in that for winter....cushty, and gets colder than the fridge...and saves 3amps/hr as well.