What??? How???

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, RLWP said:

And the rest...

 

Don't forget many locks have a solid brick bottom

 

 

Adding a foot to the width is a major job

 

Richard

 

 

That brick base is exactly what I had in mind. 

 

In fact increasing the width would mean hardly any of the original lock was re-useable. 

 

 

 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

29 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Yes and I've an idea this might be it. But whichever lock it is, I know from personal experience with DMR that two modern shells 6ft 10in wide each, don't fit in. 

 

 

I think they’re on about Harris Lock which is above Semington. 

 

 

[Peter X]

On the K&A with the NBT's pair I've been as far west as Newbury and we've always got both in a lock side by side, but of course the stoppage is some way further west and it's entirely plausible that 200 years ago for some reason not all the canal was built to the same specification?

There are one or two locks on the eastern K&A where Nuneaton and Brighton do have to go through separately due to their length.

I think the problem with Napton no. 9 was that it was bowed along its length; Brighton went through fine, Nuneaton which is a bit banana shaped was fine going up but difficult going down.

[magpie patrick]

8 minutes ago, Peter X said:

On the K&A with the NBT's pair I've been as far west as Newbury and we've always got both in a lock side by side, but of course the stoppage is some way further west and it's entirely plausible that 200 years ago for some reason not all the canal was built to the same specification?

 

The locks only start being narrow at Newbury - originally they were a lot bigger east of Newbury and some (Fobney for example) still are. The smaller locks between Reading and Newbury are later rebuilds and are still a little larger than those to the west  

[AndrewIC]

3 hours ago, magpie patrick said:

Kennet and Avon locks are not standard (whatever "standard"might mean) they were built for boats 70 foot by 13 foot 8 - 13 foot 8 equals 4.2 metres.

Bradshaw says 13ft 10in, Clew has 13ft 9in, but 4 metres is only 13ft 1.5in. According to the note on the Facebook post, the stuck boat is allegedly 13ft 6in and has previously passed the same lock without problems. Sounds like another failing to repair properly.

[roland elsdon]

The kennet was rebuilt on the cheap by msc in the 1980s. It was a rush job involving work for the dole under thatcher. Opening it was nothing short of a miracle. It is a fragile waterway difficult to build and maintain with water problems.

Bwb picked it up once open and worked uphill to keep it going, crt have picked up the legacy.

our canals  veryexistence is the legacy of volunteerism and enthusiasm, and sometimes this seems to be forgotten.

navigation is not a right it has been hard fought.

governments would have made a mint by infilling for roads and rail projects as well as housing, but for the efforts of some people.

[Athy]

It would have to be a rack railway if it went up the Caen Hill Flight.

Your reference to "MSC" is intriguing; surely you don't mean that the Manchester Ship Canal rebuilt the waterway?

[roland elsdon]

Manpower services commission.

work for the dole

 

some of those involved stayed in the industry had careers and built boats

[Athy]

4 minutes ago, roland elsdon said:

Manpower services commission.

work for the dole

 

some of those involved stayed in the industry had careers and built boats

THank you. I vaguely remember the name now that you have mentioned it. Does it still exist?

[carlt]

16 minutes ago, Athy said:

THank you. I vaguely remember the name now that you have mentioned it. Does it still exist?

No it was scrapped some time in the late 80s, replaced by "TEC" (Training Enterprise Council) which itself was replaced by the Learning and Skills Council as each post 1979 government attempted to disguise mass youth unemployment with largely hopeless training schemes and, in many cases, out and out scams rather than real jobs and apprenticeships.

[Horace42]

As an aside issue - who will end up paying for the salvage work ?

[zenataomm]

The stoppage says a boat.

That insinuates one boat, which must be a fatty. As it's got that far, that would mean the other locks are wider but this one (at least) now stops anything wider than itself from completing the K&A.

I've just checked the C&RT website for K&A navigational dimensions and it quotes two different sets of lock sizes depending on which bit you're on.

 

I would be investigating where these happy go lucky floaters thought they were going and why didn't they know they couldn't …….. then I'd give them the bill.

Not knowing this waterway I don't know if they hung up going down and are likely to cause untold destruction to the compromised structure if the lock was refilled in an attempt to refloat it.

Or, as I suppose due to talk of the vessel being wider than the lock approach walls, they found they couldn't get in to ascend so took a jolly run, hop, skip and a jump at it. 

 

Either way it announces the start of the K&A disaster threads for 2019. 

 

Oh happy days - Edwin Hawkins

[BruceinSanity]

7 hours ago, roland elsdon said:

navigation is not a right it has been hard fought.

David Blagrove in Bread upon the Waters says “the first thing I learnt about canals is that they have to be fought for.” He was talking about the K&A.

[Athy]

6 hours ago, Horace42 said:

As an aside issue - who will end up paying for the salvage work ?

Presumably the boat owner's insurance company.

[Captain Pegg]

11 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

That brick base is exactly what I had in mind. 

 

In fact increasing the width would mean hardly any of the original lock was re-useable. 

 

 

 

Invert is the word you were looking for.

 

I agree it’s a different kettle of fish, probably to the extent the only sensible way to do it would be to completely remove every trace of the old lock and build a 100% new structure.

 

JP

[Alan de Enfield]

22 minutes ago, Athy said:

Presumably the boat owner's insurance company.

My insurance says I am covered for :

 

Section B - Liabilities to Third Parties
Claims by Third Parties and Passengers
If by reason of interest in the Craft the Insured shall become liable to pay and shall pay any sum or sums in respect of any liability,
claim, demand, damages and/or expenses arising from or occasioned by any of the following matters or things during the currency of
this Policy, that is to say:

 

Loss or damage to any harbour, dock (graving or otherwise), slipway, way, gridiron, pontoon, pier, quay, jetty, stage, buoy, telegraph
cable or other fixed or moveable thing whatsoever, or to any goods or property in or on the same howsoever caused:

 

So I would guess this is probably an 'industry standard' clause so C&RT should be able to recover the costs.

[Captain Pegg]

The lock in question hasn’t been rebuilt in any case. The wing walls below the bottom gates were failing and CRT appear to have removed a short section of the wing wall and built a concrete retaining wall behind the line of the original wing wall that will be - but hasn’t yet been - faced with brick to match the original.

 

The boat can’t have stuck on that work however there also appears to have been new lower wing walls repaired in concrete and these do form the boundary of the channel below water level. Either these are too narrow or the original wing walls adjacent to the repair have moved inward; possibly as a result of forces imposed during the repair.

 

Either way it is almost certainly a problem with what appears to be a fairly rushed repair to the infrastructure and not a problem with the boat.

 

JP

Edited May 3, 2019 by Captain Pegg

[magpie patrick]

13 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

Invert is the word you were looking for.

 

I agree it’s a different kettle of fish, probably to the extent the only sensible way to do it would be to completely remove every trace of the old lock and build a 100% new structure.

 

JP

The locks on one half of the Shannon-Erne were widened by one metre on restoration. These were the ones on the side descending to the Erne that were in such a poor state of repair they needed rebuilding anyway. I believe (but stand to be corrected) the they were dismantled, rebuilt in concrete and faced with the original stone - i.e. a new lock to all intents and purposes. 

 

This was done to increase the number of boats that could be fitted into one lock, not to increase maximum size. They decided this wasn't worth the effort on the locks that were basically sound between Lough Scur and the Shannon 

[Athy]

27 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

My insurance says I am covered for :

 

Loss or damage to any harbour, dock (graving or otherwise), slipway, way, gridiron, pontoon, pier, quay, jetty, stage, buoy, telegraph
cable or other fixed or moveable thing whatsoever, or to any goods or property in or on the same howsoever caused:

 

.

That's a remarkably comprehensive list. I am not certain that I have seen a "gridiron" on the canals, unless it's usually called something else.

25 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

 

 

This was done to increase the number of boats that could be fitted into one lock, not to increase maximum size. 

Er, the two go hand in glove, surely?

[Alan de Enfield]

11 minutes ago, Athy said:

That's a remarkably comprehensive list. I am not certain that I have seen a "gridiron" on the canals, unless it's usually called something else.

A Gridiron is simply a set (grid) of parallel bars - such as the 'grid' placed over a culvert or by-wash to stop branches being washed down - I'm sure you have seen some.

[magpie patrick]

13 minutes ago, Athy said:

 

Er, the two go hand in glove, surely?

I meant maximum size of boat! Shannon-Erne locks are significantly larger than the largest craft that use the canal. Think in terms of river Thames style operation

[RLWP]

15 hours ago, StephenA said:

We currently have a boat stuck in Lock 16, Harris Lock.

 

Our team are on site and are working to free the vessel

 

Unfortunately, the vessel is wider than the lock approach walls and is also wider than the published dimensions which gives a maximum beam of 4 metres.

 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/notice/15155/lock-16-harris-lock-semington

So, did anyone catch any details of what happened? Surely it isn't still there

 

Richard

[Athy]

27 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

A Gridiron is simply a set (grid) of parallel bars - such as the 'grid' placed over a culvert or by-wash to stop branches being washed down - I'm sure you have seen some.

Gotcha, yes, though I was unaware that they were called that - and I am not sure that they commonly are, "grid" perhaps being more frequently used in that sense.

[Captain Pegg]

10 hours ago, AndrewIC said:

Bradshaw says 13ft 10in, Clew has 13ft 9in, but 4 metres is only 13ft 1.5in. According to the note on the Facebook post, the stuck boat is allegedly 13ft 6in and has previously passed the same lock without problems. Sounds like another failing to repair properly.

Although I made a similar point about the repair there is potentially an issue with the boat because the published width is actually 4m (13’ 1”) and the boat is quoted as 13’ 6”.

 

That leads to the question as to whether repair works should be allowed to impinge on existing dimensions so long as they remain no worse than the published dimensions or should the existing dimensions be preserved?

 

So it may be that any narrowing at this location was actually designed but in that event the right course of action should perhaps be to publish the intention to make such a change.

 

JP

Edited May 3, 2019 by Captain Pegg

[MtB]

16 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

Although I made a similar point about the repair there is potentially an issue with the boat because the published width is actually 4m (13’ 1”) and the boat is quoted as 13’ 6”.

 

That leads to the question as to whether repair works should be allowed to impinge on existing dimensions so long as they remain no worse than the published dimensions or should the existing dimensions be preserved?

 

So it may be that any narrowing at this location was actually designed but in that event the right course of action should perhaps be to publish the intention to make such a change.

 

JP

 

 

Occam's razor suggests neither the lock nor the boat are the problem, but the steerer who forgot he was cruising with fenders down.